logain/taim/black tower stuff

[Jethro]

I think the points I gave are reasons to doubt Taim being a darkfriend.  Following are my explanations::

First point:  all darkfriends (from my knowledge) report to at least one Forsaken.

Second point:  darkfriends (from my knowledge) generally have favor in the Forsaken's eyes.  Since Taim has not been mentioned by any of the Forsaken, we do not know if he has favor in their eyes.

Third point:  darkfriends would generally be confirmed to be so by ones that swore the oath on the Oath Rod.

 

First and Second point: Taim is not by any means like other Darkfriends. He is on the same level as the Chosen in that he can channel. Now I do think Taim is power greedy to a point, but not on as big a scale as others might think. I think Taim is taking orders from Moridin, and that the others do know about him. The reason we havent heard mention of him from the Chosen so far is that their discussions that we see have never covered the topic of the Black Tower, not enough for them to mention Taim. Another thing is that I cant believe that Taim wasnt protected from the Taint, and from this I take that he must have been to Shayol Ghul to recieve that protection. I think maybe Taim might get his orders directly from the Dark One, which would be why he seems to think a hell of a lot of himself.

 

I dont quite understand your third point. If you mean that Taim would have been grassed up by someone by now, then I disagree because a) not every Darkfriend knows all the others, and b) as far as we know no Darkfriends have been put to the question on screen other than Black Ajah or female Chosen, so we havent seen anyone grass anyone else up other than Black sisters.

[Sab]

Saying he is on the level as choosen because he can channel would be like saying the BA are on the level of the choosen becuase they can channel.  Male or female the Forsaken would have scorn and distain for any channeler of the age.

 

Once Taim became a DF, no need for the Forsaken to give him constant orders.  Most likely he is to find the seals Rand has hidden and keep boosting the numbers Asha'man to the side of the Dark One. 

 

Another reason I think Taim became a DF after he met Rand was, had he been protected from the taint like the Forsaken were, why didn't Rand ever see the black threads coming from him?

[Luckers]

The logic behind Taim having been raised Chosen is slightly more complex than that--which is why i didn't add it, and i suspect why Jethro glossed over it. And Jethro is correct, the suggestion that Taim has been raised Chosen does speak to the issue of why Chosen arn't in charge of him--I was going to raise the point myself i just didn't feel like going into the details which weren't really related to this concept. But, now it has been, so here they are--if some of these points seem to have already been made its because i copied this from my store of such theories, not because im trying to beat you over the head with the point.

 

Third Age—New Chosen Theory

 

Essentially this theory states that Taim was born a Third Age man, was trained by Ishamael before being sent out to train other darkfriends in preparation for Tarmon Gai'don. It then goes on to suggest that in light of his success he has been raised full Chosen by Shaidar Haren--possibly with or without Moridin's knowledge. I will try to go through this as methodically as possible because it touches on a number of seperate points, so please bear with me as i struggle. Lol.

 

The Origins of Mazrim Taim

 

Ok, ignoring the suggestions that he is Be'lal or Moridin--lets assume Taim is who he says he is. According to RJ he is 28 years of age in LoC, and the earliest a man can spark is 18*. This means that currently Taim has been channeling a minimum of 6 years and a maximum of around 11 years.

 

We also know something of what he was doing during the time prior to his announcing himself Dragon 2 years ago--he says that he found five men over the years who could channel, though the only one who had the courage to go beyond the training went mad after 2 years. That two years, along with the comment of 'over the years' plus the 2 years after he announced himself Dragon is why i set up the 6 year minimum, though in truth i believe it to be longer.

 

Now even 6 years is a long time for Taim not to be showing signs of the Taint--both the mental instability, and the physical rotting. Its not impossible of course, and some suggest that Taim's emotional instability and hubris might be a form of highly functional insanity, but even so, it seems a long time.

 

This is what i suggest. Around fifteen or sixteen years ago we know that Ishamael was in one of his free cycles (he personally physically forced Jarna Milari into the ter'angreal that killed her) and that he knew at the time that the Dragon Reborn had been born, and that Tarmon Gai'don was fast approaching. At this time I believe that he set out to gather channelers--beginning by testing and training men himself directly (and probably having women trained as well, Liandrin certainly infers as much in tSR), and then setting them to go out and train men.

 

Why do I believe Taim is one such? For starters we know that Ishamael did it before, during the Trolloc Wars, so it makes sense that he would do it again. Secondly we have Taim's mannerisms--comments like 'so-called Aiel', the use of the lightning bolt sigil favoured by Sammael and Be'lal, the colouring of the tiles, the use of the Lord of Chaos comment--all of which imply, since we are assuming here that he is not a recycled Chosen, significant long term exposure to the Forsaken and their mannerisms.

 

Beyond which he actually states it, he says he found five men--he claims only one of those men went beyond the testing, and that man went mad in two years, yet this almost certainly must be a lie because we know Taim is a darkfriend--one way or another he IS a darkfriend. Thirdly, he comments to Rand that if you use to much power in testing a man for the ability, the resonance MIGHT kill him, yet if he learned this through personal experience then one of those five men died, and there is no 'might' about it. His knowledge is too exactly technical.

 

So that, according to this theory, is Taim's origins. From there i believe he was commanded to announce himself Dragon by Ishamael and perform attrocities to spread and heighten fear of the Dragon. Certainly thats implied by the few comments we have about his actions in that time, of what he did to Bashere's emesaries.

 

Why Would The Dark One Raise Any New Chosen?

 

Firstly, we know that around book ten the Dark One was feeling remarkably disatisfied with his Chosen. He was forced to rely on them because they were irreplaceble in their knowledge and ability, yet they were fractious and self-serving, and the previous threat of their utter annialation was no longer availiable.

 

He responded to this in a number of ways. Reigning them in tightly under Moridin, Soulbinding Cyndane and Moghedian, having Shaidar Haren go over their heads to directly interact with darkfriends like Alviarin--and, I would suggest, raising Taim Chosen. It makes sense, Taim is the nearest thing this Age has to an Age of Legends level of training that the Dark One could find. He is strong in the power, and has been massively successful in gathering and training darkfriend channelers.

 

So their is a need for a reforming of power, and Taim fits as closely to being a viable candidate as any Third Ager ever could, but what evidence is there?

 

Why Do People Suggest He Has Been Raised?

 

It began with events in KoD--specifically the attack on the manor in Tear. Someone disguised as Sammale, yet with the Chosen Mark sent one hundred thousand Trollocs against Rand--and clearly against the better thoughts of the Shadow Coffee Club.

 

Now this didn't seem to make any sort of sense. The Forsaken just got back from having an encounter with Rand's channeling cadre. They know the type of power he has about him, and they know he has both the Choedan Kal and Callandor, and would have no reason not to have run and grabbed them the second Trollocs were sensed (even if he didn't, they would have expected that he would).

 

These people one and all know what the Power can achieve in battle. By all rights that action, from any of them, would be the dumbest thing ever. They had to know it wouldn't work, and all it would do is sharpen Rand's attention towards the north--they know this, its why Trolloc activity became so... quiet. They want Rand and all the Light focussed on struggling with each other, not aware of the threat to the north. It makes no sense.

 

Here enters Taim. We know that less than three days prior to the attack Taim was desperately seeking to learn Rand's location--and yes, he didn't get it from Logain, but even assuming one of Logain's men isn't a plant then there are 51 Aes Sedai who directly stated their intention to play on the rift between Logain and Taim who could have revealed it.

 

From there, the timing is perfect. Three days, time to go to the Trollocs, command them into the Ways, have them travel the Ways, leave at Stedding Shangtai, and make the trip from there down into northern Tear and the manor.

 

Furthermore, Taim is a man well known for presenting himself with Forsaken characteristics. Where the actual Chosen prefer more stylistic disguises, such as appearing made of fire, or silvery light that hides everything, of that trick of the power that made Slayer's eyes slide away, Taim is much more blunt.

 

And that holds through here. The method of the attack--the point. It makes no sense from one of the real Forsaken, but from Taim is makes a lot of sense. His methods are always blunt--this almost exactly matched what he did during the attack on the Sun Palace, throwing force as long as it can't be traced to him with no real pause for thought or planning on the off chance that it succeed. It matches what he did with saving Rand from the Grey Man, the way he set up his inner cadre of darkfriends, the attack on Demira, the way he responded to Pevara....

 

It matches Taim.

 

So thats it. It is an argument in the absense, but it fits.

 

 

 

[Mr Ares]

Another reason I think Taim became a DF after he met Rand was, had he been protected from the taint like the Forsaken were, why didn't Rand ever see the black threads coming from him?

Same reason he never saw them on Aginor, Balthamel, Be'lal, Rahvin, Semirhage, Sammael, Osan'gar or Lanfear. Most of the time they can't be seen. When he saw them on Ishamael and Asmodean, he was not in the normal world. He only saw them on Asmo in skimming space, for example, and didn't see them in Rhuidean when he cut them.

[Sab]

Thought he did see them in Rhudiean, hence he knew where to cut.  Ok I might be mistaken but thought only men had the black threads becuase it was their protection from the DO. It was that which offered the DO's special protection.  Which I assumed why he could see anything on Mogy after he killed Rhavin in the dream world.

 

Taim might be Forsaken trained, but doubt his skills are equal to a Choosen.  After all Ishy wants a useful tool not another potential rival for power.

[Swigaro]

Thought he did see them in Rhudiean, hence he knew where to cut.  Ok I might be mistaken but thought only men had the black threads becuase it was their protection from the DO. It was that which offered the DO's special protection.  Which I assumed why he could see anything on Mogy after he killed Rhavin in the dream world.

 

Taim might be Forsaken trained, but doubt his skills are equal to a Choosen.  After all Ishy wants a useful tool not another potential rival for power.

 

Ishy wouldn't have had any say in Taim being raised.  I doubt the DO would consult an underling before making Taim a Chosen.

[Sab]

True, but the bringing back dead Forsaken shows the DO doesn't think any of this age are worthy hence he needs to bring back those who have failed.  Maybe Taim is Forsaken trained but his skills are nowhere even close to the level of the Choosen's. 

[Cillian]

True, but the bringing back dead Forsaken shows the DO doesn't think any of this age are worthy hence he needs to bring back those who have failed.  Maybe Taim is Forsaken trained but his skills are nowhere even close to the level of the Choosen's. 

 

To be fair you wouldn't really consider Rand's skills to be anywhere close to that of the Forsaken at first glance, y'know considering all their AOL knowledge, yet Rand keeps whoopin' their asses (I know there's more to that, but the point stands). Taim's been channeling years longer than Rand, and we haven't really seen what he's capable of other than he's almost as strong as Rand.

 

And the DO doesn't have an infinite supply of AOL Chosen, nor can he always catch their souls for recycling, so he really does need back-ups. Hence giving Taim a promotion.

[Swigaro]

As Cillian pointed out, The DO is basicly out of AOL Channelers to do his bidding.  Even if he could keep recycling, the Chosen he has aren't doing the job.  Why wouldn't he try something different, like picking up a 3rd age Channeler and making him a Chosen?  It isn't really a question of skills.  The almighty AOL Channelers record against 3rd age Channelers isn't that great, a fact that wouldn't be lost on the DO.

[Jethro]

Saying he is on the level as choosen because he can channel would be like saying the BA are on the level of the choosen becuase they can channel

 

I didnt mean in the pecking order, I meant that not most Darkfriends can channel. The fact that Taim can channel means the Chosen might once have been just like him; can you imagine a Chosen that couldn't channel? From Taims PoV, they are only higher than him in rank, not necessarily in power levels.

[Luckers]

Thought he did see them in Rhudiean, hence he knew where to cut.  Ok I might be mistaken but thought only men had the black threads becuase it was their protection from the DO. It was that which offered the DO's special protection.  Which I assumed why he could see anything on Mogy after he killed Rhavin in the dream world.

 

Firstly, no, he was cutting from memory. "He had not seen those strange things like black steel wires around Asmodean since leaving the dark place, but he could visualize them even in the void, place them in his mind around him."

 

Secondly, when RJ was asked about the black steel wires being the mens connection to the Dark One, he replied that 'thats what Rand thought they were'. Implying at the least that there is more to them than that.

 

Taim might be Forsaken trained, but doubt his skills are equal to a Choosen.  After all Ishy wants a useful tool not another potential rival for power.

 

Why would Ishy--or rather Moridin--have anything to do with it? I'd assume it was Shaidar Haren's doing, like Alviarin only moreso. As for the rest... it seems clear Taim has more knowledge than we've been exposed to. Logain speaks of his secret weaves, taught only to his followers, and if that were the case one would assume there were more still kept to himself. We really have no idea the extent of his skill or knowledge. Beyond that, though the whole 'the Dark One has no other choice and he is the closest thing to a Age of Legender he has' thing i raised above comes into it.

 

True, but the bringing back dead Forsaken shows the DO doesn't think any of this age are worthy hence he needs to bring back those who have failed.  Maybe Taim is Forsaken trained but his skills are nowhere even close to the level of the Choosen's. 

 

I did address this above you know--i even emboldened the section--but in more detail--yes, the Dark One deeply values the store of knowledge and ability of his Second Age channelers--but more important to him is his paranoia. In the Age of Legends he had hundreds of thousands of Forsaken to choose his leaders from, and encouraged them to fight amongst themselves to display excellence. He himself actually killed more of the high Chosen than the Light did. Suddenly he finds himself forced to rely upon and retain the Chosen even after they failed him--or even outright betrayed him. Moghedian, Cyndane, Mesaana--none of them would have survived their actions in the Age of Legends, but rather than kill them he is forced to keep them.

 

By everything we know of the Dark One, he would hate that dependence, and act to balance it. And we have seen him do so--the creation of Shaidar Haren, and the subsequent 'going over the Chosen's' heads in contacting and commanding darkfriends like Alviarin, the binding of Cyndane and Moghedian, the punishing of Mesaana. The most effective way of keeping them toeing the line though would be to raise new Chosen, thereby disrupting their sense of their own importance.

 

From there Taim is a clear choice. Despite your dismissal of his skills and knowledge he is Forsaken trained since a young age, he has proven himself both as a False Dragon, and later by getting himself set up as leader of the Black Tower, and gathering over a hundred new Dreadlords and avoiding suspicion all through it. He is, in effect, the closest thing the Dark One has to a Age of Legender.

 

I didnt mean in the pecking order, I meant that not most Darkfriends can channel. The fact that Taim can channel means the Chosen might once have been just like him; can you imagine a Chosen that couldn't channel? From Taims PoV, they are only higher than him in rank, not necessarily in power levels.

 

Technically speaking the name Chosen was the name that the Aes Sedai who turned to the shadow during the Age of Legends named themselves. All of them, not just those who led (similarily the word Forsaken applied to them all as well). Those that led amongst them were marked as such, with what we call the Chosen Mark--though again there were many Chosen who did not have the mark. If we can go off who was given access to the True Power than twenty-nine of the Chosen had that mark and held the high rank that goes with it during the course of the War of the Power.

 

Whether there were non-channelers who were marked or held such high rank, we do not know, but they would not have been called Chosen.

[Casco]

I still think Taim is a totaly insane channeling guy.

He is not a DF, but he IS crazy from the taint (i think there is different degrees on insanity..and Taim didnt go back to a child level).

I belive he think HE is the dragon reborn, using Rand as a tool. He want the power for himself and building up an army in BT.

Logain will kill him (Egwens dream, when Logan kill rand with a paper face, and stands up on a big black stone = Logan kill Taim discuised as rand in BT, and after he takes lead of the BT standing on the black stone, and finaly he gets hes glory from Min visions)

 

I realy hope there will be ALOT action with Logain in AMOL. I love that guy..

 

 

[Luckers]

I still think Taim is a totaly insane channeling guy.

He is not a DF, but he IS crazy from the taint (i think there is different degrees on insanity..and Taim didnt go back to a child level).

I belive he think HE is the dragon reborn, using Rand as a tool. He want the power for himself and building up an army in BT.

 

Then how do you explain his ordering of darkfriends? And specific commands too, commands sent down from Moridin--if not the Dark One himself. Or how do you explain his knowledge and repitition of forsaken mannerism--the 'so-called Aiel', the tiling in his palace, the 'hand holding three lightning bolts' symbol, the use of the Lord of Chaos phrase?

 

Logain will kill him (Egwens dream, when Logan kill rand with a paper face, and stands up on a big black stone = Logan kill Taim discuised as rand in BT, and after he takes lead of the BT standing on the black stone, and finaly he gets hes glory from Min visions)

 

Egwene dreamed of Logain stepping over Rand's corpse, not killing him. Most interpret that to say that after Rand apparently dies Logain will take charge of the Black Tower--the glory coming to him. None of that relates to Taim.

[Thor]

no it's pretty certain that it's a kill, but it isn't rand since his image shimmers when egwene tried to touch it.

[Luckers]

Ah, no... once again Egwene sees Logain step over 'Rand's' corpse. Nothing in that suggests he killed him, much less makes it pretty certain.

[Sab]

Thought he did see them in Rhudiean, hence he knew where to cut.  Ok I might be mistaken but thought only men had the black threads becuase it was their protection from the DO. It was that which offered the DO's special protection.  Which I assumed why he could see anything on Mogy after he killed Rhavin in the dream world.

 

Firstly, no, he was cutting from memory. "He had not seen those strange things like black steel wires around Asmodean since leaving the dark place, but he could visualize them even in the void, place them in his mind around him."

 

Secondly, when RJ was asked about the black steel wires being the mens connection to the Dark One, he replied that 'thats what Rand thought they were'. Implying at the least that there is more to them than that.

 

Taim might be Forsaken trained, but doubt his skills are equal to a Choosen.  After all Ishy wants a useful tool not another potential rival for power.

 

Why would Ishy--or rather Moridin--have anything to do with it? I'd assume it was Shaidar Haren's doing, like Alviarin only moreso. As for the rest... it seems clear Taim has more knowledge than we've been exposed to. Logain speaks of his secret weaves, taught only to his followers, and if that were the case one would assume there were more still kept to himself. We really have no idea the extent of his skill or knowledge. Beyond that, though the whole 'the Dark One has no other choice and he is the closest thing to a Age of Legender he has' thing i raised above comes into it.

 

True, but the bringing back dead Forsaken shows the DO doesn't think any of this age are worthy hence he needs to bring back those who have failed.  Maybe Taim is Forsaken trained but his skills are nowhere even close to the level of the Choosen's. 

 

I did address this above you know--i even emboldened the section--but in more detail--yes, the Dark One deeply values the store of knowledge and ability of his Second Age channelers--but more important to him is his paranoia. In the Age of Legends he had hundreds of thousands of Forsaken to choose his leaders from, and encouraged them to fight amongst themselves to display excellence. He himself actually killed more of the high Chosen than the Light did. Suddenly he finds himself forced to rely upon and retain the Chosen even after they failed him--or even outright betrayed him. Moghedian, Cyndane, Mesaana--none of them would have survived their actions in the Age of Legends, but rather than kill them he is forced to keep them.

 

By everything we know of the Dark One, he would hate that dependence, and act to balance it. And we have seen him do so--the creation of Shaidar Haren, and the subsequent 'going over the Chosen's' heads in contacting and commanding darkfriends like Alviarin, the binding of Cyndane and Moghedian, the punishing of Mesaana. The most effective way of keeping them toeing the line though would be to raise new Chosen, thereby disrupting their sense of their own importance.

 

From there Taim is a clear choice. Despite your dismissal of his skills and knowledge he is Forsaken trained since a young age, he has proven himself both as a False Dragon, and later by getting himself set up as leader of the Black Tower, and gathering over a hundred new Dreadlords and avoiding suspicion all through it. He is, in effect, the closest thing the Dark One has to a Age of Legender.

 

I didnt mean in the pecking order, I meant that not most Darkfriends can channel. The fact that Taim can channel means the Chosen might once have been just like him; can you imagine a Chosen that couldn't channel? From Taims PoV, they are only higher than him in rank, not necessarily in power levels.

 

Technically speaking the name Chosen was the name that the Aes Sedai who turned to the shadow during the Age of Legends named themselves. All of them, not just those who led (similarily the word Forsaken applied to them all as well). Those that led amongst them were marked as such, with what we call the Chosen Mark--though again there were many Chosen who did not have the mark. If we can go off who was given access to the True Power than twenty-nine of the Chosen had that mark and held the high rank that goes with it during the course of the War of the Power.

 

Whether there were non-channelers who were marked or held such high rank, we do not know, but they would not have been called Chosen.

[/quote}

 

I respect Luckers because he makes many goood points.  But even Asmo who many consider the weakest Forsaken could run cicrcles around Taim's knowledge.  Which is why I wouldn't think it would do the DO much good to promote him to Choosen status.  After all he only would know what IShy would show him.  He does'nt have the advantage of having LTT in his head.  Ishy would show him ehough to be useful, not enough to be a threat.

[Samudor]

What you say makes some sense, but with all those Dreadlords under him, how much knowledge does Taim really need? I really like the idea that Ishamael trained him in secret- we know that in raw power he is equal to any of the Forsaken aside from Ishamael, Aginor, and perhaps Graendal. At the end of the day, 13 novices could squash any of the Forsaken- and Taim has shown a remarkable ablility to be dynamic enough to draw people to him. How do we know that Taim is not simply promoting himself? Or, even more interestingly, what if Morridin is using him behind the back of the others? If Ishamael trained him- and with his knowledge it's a distinct possibility- then wouldn't it stand to reason that Morridin would be still using him in play?

[pxnsolid]

no it's pretty certain that it's a kill, but it isn't rand since his image shimmers when egwene tried to touch it.

 

actually, she tries to touch his face, and it breaks apart like a paper mask.

[CUBAREY]

Or, even more interestingly, what if Morridin is using him behind the back of the others?

 

Well we know that one of the Chosen was masquerading as an Ashaman so if Ishy/Mordien trained Taim its pretty sure that at least one of the Foresaken knew the secret.

[Samudor]

I'm sure they all knew that truth- I simply mean that what if Taim is apparently acting on his own to the eyes of the other Chosen, when in fact he is doing Morridin's bidding? Taim and Morridin appear to be the only people on a longer leash than anyone else....I wonder if that's a coincidence or not...

[Sab]

Taim is most likely playing his own game to, most likely answering to Mordin since he is the one currently in charge. To me he doesn't need alot of oversight anymore since his tasks are basicly recruit for to the DO and find the seals.  Taim being in charge of the Black Tower all the Forsaken need to do is check up on him now and then, even in his dreams, just to see how is is coming along.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

But even Asmo who many consider the weakest Forsaken could run cicrcles around Taim's knowledge.

What do you base that on? We do not know the limits of their knowledge, either of them. What basis do we have for comparison?

[Jethro]

Taim knows far too much about the Power to have learnt it on his own I reckon. Did we learn where the bond the Ashaman use on Aes Sedai came from? I cant remember if it was said in the books, but I always had that down as part of Taims mission to create friction between Ashaman and Aes Sedai. What better idea for it is there than making the Ashaman used to being in control, in charge? Unless it wasnt Taim or one of his favorites that "discovered" it.

[Sab]

Taim wouldn't need to create friction between Aes Sedai and Asha'man.  Eladia has been doing that pretty well on her own and the friction Asan'gar was trying to do with the murders using the male power.

 

What do I basis my theory Asmo knowledge could run cicrles around Taim's?  How many times has it been pointed out in the series the Forsaken have all the knowledge, blah blah blah?? Taim might even know a weave or two the Forsaken might not, but don't think anyone could honestly say Taim can match any of the Forsaken in knowledge.  Taim at most been channeling for what 15 years, the Forsaken hundreds.

[Luckers]

I respect Luckers because he makes many goood points.  But even Asmo who many consider the weakest Forsaken could run cicrcles around Taim's knowledge.  Which is why I wouldn't think it would do the DO much good to promote him to Choosen status.  After all he only would know what IShy would show him.  He does'nt have the advantage of having LTT in his head.  Ishy would show him ehough to be useful, not enough to be a threat.

 

Umm... what do you base that on?

 

Need i point out that Rand--who would not even have had Taim's training, defeated Asmodean. Furthermore we have no knowledge as to the extent of Taim's training.

 

Yes, I think I'm calling you out. Show proof for your declarations, please.