The Seals are broken: When... and then what?

[Matrim DeLaneous]

Relatively new to the boards.  I've seached "The Seals" and read through many of the prior references.  It's tough to catch up I'll tell ya.  Anyway, I think Herad Fel (sp) makes us think that it's likely that the seals need to be broken and the rubble cleared away to create a better / permanent seal on the DO's prison.  (or make it as if the bore never was?) We know that Rand has all the remaining seals and will likely bring them out in AMOL.  I assume, given their fragility, that he'll be able to just smash them... or else there may be an issue as I'm not sure anyone's figured out a way to break cuendillar (sp). 

 

I ask "WHEN" because the way things are shaping up, Rand's going to have a lot on his plate with Forsaken, Moridin, Shaidar Haran etc. Is he going to save the seals until all these others are dealt with?  After the seals are broken, then WHAT?  Will there be a direct battle with the DO.  Unless I'm mistaken, I don't think there has been any reference to a one on one with the DO in the series.

 

 

 

[mb]

When will all the Seals be broken?  I think there might be events that might cause them to break without the interference of any person; like the Dark One's miasma or perhaps ghosts.

 

What will happen after the Seals are broken?  For sure the Dark One will come out.

There is a belief that the Dark One would lead darkhounds on the Wild Hunt.

Prophecy says that the Dragon Reborn would fight the Dark One during Tarmon Gai'don.

Maybe the Wild Hunt and Tarmon Gai'don would be combined.

 

As for re-sealing the Bore, there might be a chance that they would not need to; the Dark One might be able to be killed.

 

[DaTaimsta]

I think the Dark One breaking free would end everything, immediately. Even if Rand had the choedan kal in one hand, and callandor in the other, the DO could remake the pattern in the blink of an eye. Or at least I assume he could, since he can already touch the Pattern to a certain degree.

[ROB_88]

the DO can't be killed, that would mess everything up for the next time the wheel spins around.

 

question. the Seals are Cuendillar, and it is said that if you try to destroy normal cuendillar it just absorbs the blow and makes it stronger, these are off course a little special buti was wondering.

if one was to pound on a seal for years either with OP or a hammer, before they all go fragile, would they get stonger and not break when they did?

[FallingBullets]

I guess its the complete and utter evil (or opposite) nature of the DO that destroys the Cuendillar, so I would doubt doing any standard stuff to it would work.

 

But you might beable to re-seal it with True Power made Cuendillar, that might screw him :D

[Matrim DeLaneous]

For sure the Dark One will come out.

There is a belief that the Dark One would lead darkhounds on the Wild Hunt.

Prophecy says that the Dragon Reborn would fight the Dark One during Tarmon Gai'don.

 

I believe it's also been proposed that even if the seals are all broken, the DO will still only be able to reach through the bore, not completely step out of the Creator's prison.  I think it's also been theorized that the prison is actually The Pattern.  As such, for the DO to truly be free would require the complete destruction of The Pattern and all the lives / beings who's threads make it up.

[Sab]

If the DO totally broke free and was released everyone would be screwed.  All the forces of light together can't beat a being believed to be equal to the creator.  Think RJ said the DO could be killed by balefire but the amout needed would destory the world.

 

I believe he can be freed completely from his prison but it is clear he needs help.  Even with all the seals broken he couldn't get out on his own.  In the BWB it states "Eventually those loyal to the DO felt themselves strong enough to act.  In a swift strike they made an attempt to free the DO completely and take control."  If he broke free completely he could then remake the pattern as he wanted to.

[Yllek]

Here's a question that just came to me...

 

The seals are made of cullendar and they are weakening; as they aren't suposed to be able to do.  I imagine this is because they were made by male Aes Sedei as a focus for the DO's prison, which tainted the male half of the source.  Okay, so the taint is likely what's making them weaken, sort of like the Ways being "sick" or contaiminated because they were made by males after the taint was established.

 

So, now that the taint has been removed, do you think the seals have regained their strength?  For that matter, perhaps the Ways are healing too.  The seals and the Ways haven't been discussed since the taint was removed. 

[mb]

The seals are made of cullendar and they are weakening; as they aren't suposed to be able to do.  I imagine this is because they were made by male Aes Sedei as a focus for the DO's prison, which tainted the male half of the source.  Okay, so the taint is likely what's making them weaken, sort of like the Ways being "sick" or contaiminated because they were made by males after the taint was established.

 

I take that the Taint came after the Bore was sealed.

 

 

So, now that the taint has been removed, do you think the seals have regained their strength?  For that matter, perhaps the Ways are healing too.  The seals and the Ways haven't been discussed since the taint was removed.

 

According to various sources; cleansing saidin did not remove side effects, just made it so that saidin channelers would not become more insane.

 

[pxnsolid]

I take that the Taint came after the Bore was sealed.

 

the taint is a result of the back lash of sealing the bore, so while the taint did indeed come after, reasonably id have to say it was a close thing. i.e. backlash says, to me, near instantanious response.

[Mercer]

A question: When the Dark One's prison was bored -- by Lanfear, yes? -- how long before the bore was then sealed? Because if it was not "immediately", I don't see where all these "Dark One without the seals could kill the world" things come from...just asking.

 

Second, the prophecies DO imply that he must face the Dark One. There doesn't seem a way around that at present.

[MikeRiley]

Maybe the Wild Hunt and Tarmon Gai'don would be combined.

 

 

I think the Wild Hunt is already happening. Perrin and the Aes Sedai with him found a massive pack that ran right around their camp in Crossroads of Twilight. They were on an important hunt and it was suggested they were chasing Rand around.

 

For that matter a lot of Knife of Dreams seems like the opening blows of Tarmon Gaidon. Why should it just be good versus evil if the bad guy can pull enough strings to cause infighting? When the Dark One said "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" he could have had that in mind.

 

As for the when and where, it seems obvious Rand is going to do it soon. His sickness might have him at the point where he thinks he can no longer put it off. If the forsaken had to go to the bore to free the Dark One he'll probably have to go there as well.

[ROB_88]

Here's a question that just came to me...

 

The seals are made of cullendar and they are weakening; as they aren't suposed to be able to do.  I imagine this is because they were made by male Aes Sedei as a focus for the DO's prison, which tainted the male half of the source.  Okay, so the taint is likely what's making them weaken, sort of like the Ways being "sick" or contaiminated because they were made by males after the taint was established.

 

So, now that the taint has been removed, do you think the seals have regained their strength?  For that matter, perhaps the Ways are healing too.  The seals and the Ways haven't been discussed since the taint was removed. 

 

i read a theory a few months ago, don't remember which thread though.

if anyone recognises it, please help me out here. it was a topic about the nature of the DO or something like that.

 

what force could possibly break the most powerful thing in the world that also absorbs all outside power that's directed with it?

how about a simple lack of power, the DO could just "suck" the strenght out of them from within.

[Mr Ares]

A question: When the Dark One's prison was bored, how long before the bore was then sealed?

From the Bore being drilled to the outbreak of war was 100 years, with the war lasting a further 10 years until the Sealing.

[Yllek]

A question: When the Dark One's prison was bored -- by Lanfear, yes? -- how long before the bore was then sealed? Because if it was not "immediately", I don't see where all these "Dark One without the seals could kill the world" things come from...just asking.

 

Second, the prophecies DO imply that he must face the Dark One. There doesn't seem a way around that at present.

 

Good point (about the Dark One being 'free' after the bore was drilled). 

 

Although the prophecies imply that Rand must face the Dark One, there's a lot of suggestions throughout the story that the "Dark One" might be Ishmael rather than the all powerful evil that is locked away in a prison.  What strikes me right now is the scene where Verin is showing Egewene a tattered page saying something to the effect of "name hidden in a name, secret shrouded by secret...Betrayer of hope, Ishmael betrays all hope..." (Sorry, I'm at work and don't have the books here for an exact quote, but you know what I'm talking about).  The scene takes place when Verin gives Egewene the dream-access ring. 

 

Anyway, I always thought that passage would be very important in the turning of events.  I don't claim to understand it's meaning, but I believe that a lot of the prophecies and what people think about the "Dark One" is actually Ishmael's plotting to make everyone fear him as the supreme evil; not "Shaitan".  Now that he's Mordin *IF* there's a body swap, perhaps that's the meaning of "Ishamel betrays all hope".  Rand is the hope of the world in defeating the Dark One.  *IF* the body swap theory pans out (I know your not a fan of that theory, Mercer), but if what everyone though was Rand comes out as a darkfriend, that would certainly betray all hope.  There's other parts of that passage that would make sense too *IF* that came to be.  I'm so excited to see what happens... 

[Sab]

A question: When the Dark One's prison was bored -- by Lanfear, yes? -- how long before the bore was then sealed? Because if it was not "immediately", I don't see where all these "Dark One without the seals could kill the world" things come from...just asking.

 

Second, the prophecies DO imply that he must face the Dark One. There doesn't seem a way around that at present.

 

Good point (about the Dark One being 'free' after the bore was drilled). 

 

Although the prophecies imply that Rand must face the Dark One, there's a lot of suggestions throughout the story that the "Dark One" might be Ishmael rather than the all powerful evil that is locked away in a prison.  What strikes me right now is the scene where Verin is showing Egewene a tattered page saying something to the effect of "name hidden in a name, secret shrouded by secret...Betrayer of hope, Ishmael betrays all hope..." (Sorry, I'm at work and don't have the books here for an exact quote, but you know what I'm talking about).  The scene takes place when Verin gives Egewene the dream-access ring. 

 

Anyway, I always thought that passage would be very important in the turning of events.  I don't claim to understand it's meaning, but I believe that a lot of the prophecies and what people think about the "Dark One" is actually Ishmael's plotting to make everyone fear him as the supreme evil; not "Shaitan".  Now that he's Mordin *IF* there's a body swap, perhaps that's the meaning of "Ishamel betrays all hope".  Rand is the hope of the world in defeating the Dark One.  *IF* the body swap theory pans out (I know your not a fan of that theory, Mercer), but if what everyone though was Rand comes out as a darkfriend, that would certainly betray all hope.  There's other parts of that passage that would make sense too *IF* that came to be.  I'm so excited to see what happens... 

 

 

It was my understanding the "Name hidden in a name" was refering to Ishmael being Ba'alzamon.

 

As for betrayer of Hope I think it was becuase he was one of the first to pledge himself to the shadow and according to the BWB "His public announcement  of this, coming from a world respected figure at a time when famine, plagues, and massive riots were racking an unprepared world, in middle of a conference called to discuss dealing with the crisis, sparked even greater riots.  It was Elan Morin (Ishy) who at the same time announced to the world what it was they faced.  He called for the complete destruction of the old order--indeed, the complete destruction of everything".  I think that is when he got the title of Betrayer of Hope. 

[Matrim DeLaneous]

A question: When the Dark One's prison was bored, how long before the bore was then sealed?

From the Bore being drilled to the outbreak of war was 100 years, with the war lasting a further 10 years until the Sealing.

 

And I don't know of any references to a direct confrontation with the DO or any singular entity that would represent the DO during those 10 years or thereafter.  Based on what's known about the "Universe" it's fair to say that the DO's prison is outside the pattern, Mieren / Lanfear & company bored a hole through the prison, and the DO was then able to reach through the bore to affect the world.

 

The comments about Ishy / Moridin being the DO seem very unlikely if not impossible for me to believe.  As many have pointed out, he is a liar.  In his battles with Rand, we've been told about the black lines / cables that symbolize his connection to a superior power (i.e. the DO?).  Also, during the battle between Rand & Ishy at the end of TDR in TAR, didn't Ishy call on the DO for help? 

 

 

[Yllek]

"Ishy is a liar" - that's exactally why I made the comment about him possibly being what everyone believes is the "Dark One".  He LIED to the world and all the darkfriends; duped them into believing he's more than he is.  Ishy created the "darkfriend" network. 

 

What I was trying to say is that he's NOT Shaitan, or rather the Dark One is not Shaitan.  Ishy fooled everyone into believing that Shaitan IS the Dark One.  Lie within a lie on top of more lies.  I don't think the "Dark One" is Shaitan, I think it's Ishy masquerading as Shaitan.  Just noone knows it because the knowledge from the Age of Ledgends has been mostly destroyed.  I don't know if that makes any sense; sorry if it doesn't.

[motblades]

"Ishy is a liar" - that's exactally why I made the comment about him possibly being what everyone believes is the "Dark One".  He LIED to the world and all the darkfriends; duped them into believing he's more than he is.  Ishy created the "darkfriend" network. 

 

What I was trying to say is that he's NOT Shaitan, or rather the Dark One is not Shaitan.  Ishy fooled everyone into believing that Shaitan IS the Dark One.  Lie within a lie on top of more lies.  I don't think the "Dark One" is Shaitan, I think it's Ishy masquerading as Shaitan.  Just noone knows it because the knowledge from the Age of Ledgends has been mostly destroyed.  I don't know if that makes any sense; sorry if it doesn't.

 

 

There is a problem with that theory though.  The DO is very real in that he speaks to the Forsaken several times, even with Ishy there in attendance.  I don't believe the others would have followed Ishy as contentious a lot as they are.  I also don't believe that Ishy could have fooled them all by pretending to be the DO.

 

It's my belief that as Rand is the Creator's champion, Ishy is the DO's champion.  I don't believe it will be Rand vs the actual DO at the end.  I believe it will be Rand vs Ishy.  This also coincides with what Ishy told LTT at the very beginning of the books in that oh so addicting first prologue. Here's the relevant text from the prologue:

 

"Ten years! You pitiful fool! This war has not lasted ten years, but since the beginning of time. You and I have fought a thousand battles with the turning of the Wheel, a thousand times a thousand, and we will fight until time dies and the Shadow is triumphant!”

 

 

[Tel Janin Aellinsar]

I realize that this discussion has moved off from the starting question a little bit, but I still think I'm going to address the question about when the seals will be broken and what effect that will have. 

 

As for when, who knows?  What is more interesting is what effect breaking the seals might have.  Remember, Taim (during LoC), who we know to be somehow connected with the dark side, looked absolutely terrified (not to mention shocked) that Rand was muttering about breaking the seal that he brought him.  If we assume that Taim was already a darkfriend at this point (a reasonably safe assumption) then we must conclude that the DO does not want the seals broken right now.

 

We have (for the most part) assumed that the DO would want the seals broken eventually so that he could break free.  I am not so sure about that.  Think with me for a moment.

 

1.  The bore is not a sufficiently large "gap" (for lack of a better term) to allow the DO out of his prison by itself.

2.  The seals that have been broken were not in darkfriend hands when they broke.

3.  We have no idea what the darkfriends seeking the seals that Rand has hidden (the ones that attacked Dobraine and Bashere's wife) planned to do with them once they have them.

4.  None of the forsaken or the DO have ever expressed a desire to see the seals broken.

 

I freely concede that the breaking of the first couple of seals seems to have resulted in the forsaken being free and allowing the DO greater influence in the world.  But since we do not understand the mechanism by which the seals have been weakened, we do not know whether the seals have weakened as a part of the DO's plan or whether they have weakened as a side effect of what he is doing.

 

OK, now that I have laid out the background, here is my theory.  I think that the DO does not want the seals broken.  Simply because that would not be enough.  The bore will not let him out, ergo, no remaking of the Wheel just because the seals break.  Remember, LTT and the hundred companions erected the seals as a way of removing the DO's influence(not the DO himself) from the world, an objective that failed because of the taint and Ishamael being only partially sealed.

 

I think that the seals have had an unintended and dangerous side effect that the forces of the light did not anticipate.  Think about plugging a hole, in order to get a good seal, whatever you use to plug up the hole puts pressure/stress on the edges of the hole.  And what happens when that plug is pushed on from either side?  The stress on the edges increases. 

 

So, what do we know about the DO's prison?  It is the pattern itself.  And what seems to be happening to the pattern right now?  It seems to be coming apart/unraveling/dissolving/etc.  Why?  Could it be that the DO is "attacking" the seal on the bore with his taint/power/etc. not to break the seals, but to increase the pressure on the surrounding pattern.  Maybe given enough time, the DO will be able to cause irreperable damage to the pattern and escape. 

 

Of course, what happens if the seals are broken?  The DO cannot on a large scale directly affect the pattern from within his prison (at least not permanently, (e.g. endless summer undone by the Bowl of the Winds) so it is logical to assume that the DO cannot damage the walls of his prison from inside unless he has something that he can directly "touch" like the seal.

 

Will breaking the seals suck?  Probably.  At the minimum the DO will have more influence over the world than he already does, but what is the alternative.  What is Moridin's game? Is it to keep Rand running around chasing Sammael, then fighting the Seanchan, and so on while the DO (and who knows maybe Demandred) are doing their part to destroy the pattern.  Is that why the forsaken are being ordered to "churn chaos"?  To keep Rand running around, distracted and unable to see what's happening.  Remember, we know that Herid Fel had discovered something about the seals, clearing rubble and some such, just before he was killed.  The question is why.

 

But then this is all so much speculation.  Still it makes sense I think.  Comments, questions, criticisms?

[Mercer]

Good point (about the Dark One being 'free' after the bore was drilled). 

 

Although the prophecies imply that Rand must face the Dark One, there's a lot of suggestions throughout the story that the "Dark One" might be Ishmael rather than the all powerful evil that is locked away in a prison.  What strikes me right now is the scene where Verin is showing Egwene a tattered page saying something to the effect of "name hidden in a name, secret shrouded by secret...Betrayer of hope, Ishmael betrays all hope..." (Sorry, I'm at work and don't have the books here for an exact quote, but you know what I'm talking about).  The scene takes place when Verin gives Egwene the dream-access ring. 

I've seen the same talk about Ishamael, and though it seems likely he'll face him tet-a-tet again, it seems rather anticlimactic to me...he's beat him already. He's weakened to a ridiculous point now, but I just can't see it as very...uuh, climactic, I guess was the right term.

 

As far as the "betrays all hope", as another poster said, it seems to have pointed towards the "Ba'alzamon is Ishy" bit...but I agree, I think there should have been more. Verin also says the author of that scrap says her information was something "the world isn't ready to face"; how is Ishamael being Ba'alzamon that hard to face? A Forsaken made up a nasty name for himself. Oooh. Impressive. Simply shocking!

 

Anyway, I always thought that passage would be very important in the turning of events.  I don't claim to understand it's meaning, but I believe that a lot of the prophecies and what people think about the "Dark One" is actually Ishmael's plotting to make everyone fear him as the supreme evil; not "Shaitan".  Now that he's Mordin *IF* there's a body swap, perhaps that's the meaning of "Ishamel betrays all hope".  Rand is the hope of the world in defeating the Dark One.  *IF* the body swap theory pans out (I know your not a fan of that theory, Mercer), but if what everyone though was Rand comes out as a darkfriend, that would certainly betray all hope.  There's other parts of that passage that would make sense too *IF* that came to be.  I'm so excited to see what happens... 

I'm actually a fan of the Body Swap Theory as far as it explains a lot of things, and it would be a good resolution to Rand's body falling apart...I just think it's too obvious to happen. Hopefully I'm wrong. I also haven't considered that Ishy/Moridin could betray the world in Rand's body. I'd hope not, as I'm one of those people who care about Rand's reputation (I root too hard for the good guys, I guess) and getting the glory he deserves and all that, but it's a neat idea.

 

My only thought with the bore was, uuuh, if it was open for a hundred years or so, what makes us think the seals breaking are really so bloody important? They break, Dark One reaches in and kills loads and people, tains some stuff...and the good guys fight on as usual, same as before. He can only reach through, he can't leave. Seems to be what will happen.

[Majsju]

 

 

My only thought with the bore was, uuuh, if it was open for a hundred years or so, what makes us think the seals breaking are really so bloody important? They break, Dark One reaches in and kills loads and people, tains some stuff...and the good guys fight on as usual, same as before. He can only reach through, he can't leave. Seems to be what will happen.

 

The problem for Rand and the gang is that the DO has had 3000 yars to poke at the Bore. Which means noone really knows what waits behind the seal. Probably not a Bore big enough for the DO to completely escape, but if he could stick a finger out during the AOL, maybe he can stick a hand out now.

[Auld Manriva]

 

 

The problem for Rand and the gang is that the DO has had 3000 yars to poke at the Bore. Which means noone really knows what waits behind the seal. Probably not a Bore big enough for the DO to completely escape, but if he could stick a finger out during the AOL, maybe he can stick a hand out now.

 

So maybe the DO is in/behind something resembling a shield? Like Rand in the box and has been trying to find a chink to pick at for eternity? But something way more perfect than a mortal made shield, and does not just blow to bits if its breached a little? After all that time, Lanfear drills a teeny hole in it for him, he gets a breath of fresh air so to speak then along comes LTT who plugs it.  Man... is he one annoyed entity...

 

The seals are focus points; which would then in a way act as AS sittin' around to keep whatever it is sealed...sealed. But as they're mortal made, leave him points to pick at with his TP, which if its the opposite of OP, probably would deteriorate the OP made seals.Thus when they do all finally give up the ghost leave him possibly a "Heeeere's Johnny Hole" just not one big enough to walk through... just thinkin' out loud here.

[Matrim DeLaneous]

The problem for Rand and the gang is that the DO has had 3000 yars to poke at the Bore. Which means noone really knows what waits behind the seal. Probably not a Bore big enough for the DO to completely escape, but if he could stick a finger out during the AOL, maybe he can stick a hand out now.

 

Then it seem that the general consesus is that the DO or some such entity will NOT step out of the prison formed by the Creator at the beginning of time - I agree.  It also seems that many agree that the Prison is in fact, the Pattern - I agree.  We can also confidently say that the current bore is weakening (seals have broken)and the DO has been able to reach out and affect the world and unravel / weaken the Pattern (bubbles of evil, dead walking, etc). 

 

Under this logic, for the Wheel to get back to a point where this is no bore, the seals will have to be broken, and the Pattern will need to be quickly reinforced.  I wonder if during TG, a sudden death blow and elimination of the Forsaken, and most of the DO's minions will be the beginning of this Pattern change.  Then, it'd be up to the survivors from all nations to think about if not harken back to "way of the leaf", move away from the influences of the DO, and start getting along - in effect, keep strengthening the Pattern / strenghening the DO's prison? 

[Graendals favourite]

Could very well be so.

 

I would also remind that today's society is much less able to fight the Dark One as that of the Age of Legends, or that destroyed in the Trolloc Wars, or that destroyed by the War of the Hundred years. Humanity has been receding! I reference this theory of mine, which may not be true, at least completely, but which has some grounds to it, to give support to that maybe people really keep the Dark One at bay. Or maybe not. This moment of a friday night I think it is better for me not to add to the theory, since I thought it out last time, but it seems to me that in the absence of sentient beings the Dark One makes the world his.