A Memory of Light, or Dance with Dragons?

[erickm001]

"A Song of Ice and Fire" is very dark and very adult.

 

Hmm. Then I can warmly recommend this book to you: The Steel Remains from Richard Morgan ;)

 

 

Yikes! I've read his Takeshi Kovacs SF. I don't know what havoc he would bring to a fantasy world.

 

 

[DemandredFO]

I get EXTREMELY annoyed when people compare Martin to Tolkien.  Yes Tolkien was less complex than Martin but for all that Tolkien wove an excellent tale and he did not NEED graphic sex to do it.  On balance Martin never be in the same league as Tolkien and Jordan.

[Majsju]

In by book, RJ and Martin are pretty much equal, and both of them are better than Tolkien.

[Tyrell]

I get EXTREMELY annoyed when people compare Martin to Tolkien.  Yes Tolkien was less complex than Martin but for all that Tolkien wove an excellent tale and he did not NEED graphic sex to do it.  On balance Martin never be in the same league as Tolkien and Jordan.

 

So Martin is a poorer storyteller because he has the balls to write something that some people can't deal with instead of a politically correct fade to black?

[Mr Ares]

Perhaps I should have said that I see ASoIaF as historical fiction set in a created fantasy world, as opposed to pure fantasy writing. It is really a gut reaction for me, based less on the setting, which granted falls firmly in a fantasy setting, and more on how characters actually behave.

Fantasy lays down no rules as to how characters behave.

Fantasy lays down no rules, nor should it. Character behavior in ASoIaF creates a less engaging story, for me, however. I know a great many people find it an incredibly compelling story. I find it less so...  Simply an opinion...

So, despite this being a fantasy world, with fantasy characters, you see it as historical fiction in a fantasy setting because of how people behave, but you admit fantasy lays down no rules as to how people behave?

 

It is a vast oversimplification to say WOT is about one character and ASOIAF is about many.

Indeed. Over time, while Rand is still a major character, the story has diversified, and there are several other main characters who share the stage with him, and sometimes take more of the spotlight.

 

The war of Westeros is right out of the Hundred Year War (minus the longbows).

The closest analogue would be the aforementioned Wars of the Roses, rather than the Hundred Years War. The historical Dance of Dragons in the series is analogous to the Anarchy.

 

I agree Martin is a very good writer. But I hate his series with a passion.It felt like I could easily read world history and bringing a dragon or two along with some vodoo and hocus focus and thus having the same effect ..... a fantasy series.

 

I can read Rise and fall of Roman Empire....with nice jucy blend of my own imagination , importing some magic.....viola...my own home made fantasy.

Yes, you could. Indeed, surely there is ample scope within the rise and fall of the Roman Empire to create an excellent fantasy story. You needn't stick too closely to it (there is no one for one charcter correspondence between ASoIaF and the WotR, for example), just use the basics for inspiration et voila, something new, and potentially very good. Last year, I read Bakker's Prince of Nothing and Paul Kearney's The Ten Thousand, both based on real world historical events (First Crusade and Xenophon's Anabasis, respectively) and both were bloody excellent. And deserve to be read. That said, if you want happy endings, I suggest you steer clear. "He was heartless now. A perfect man."

 

And yes, I read fantasy to escape reality for some time. I can't read a fantasy or any book, unless I like the central character, unless there is one.

Firstly, why the dislike of books and series with an ensemble cast? Secondly, why are you a WoT fan when the series has become increasingly that, rather than revolving around a single main character?

 

But Robert Jordan does.  :)

Which happy endings are you referring to?

 

Hmm. Then I can warmly recommend this book to you: The Steel Remains from Richard Morgan ;)

That's quite good. Certainly shows promise, and hopefully the Cold Commands can build on it. I think Prince of Nothing is better though. If you like dark and adult fantasy, this should appeal.There is absolutely no truth at all to any rumours that R. Scott Bakker is paying me to advertise his books.

[Thorum]

I get EXTREMELY annoyed when people compare Martin to Tolkien.  Yes Tolkien was less complex than Martin but for all that Tolkien wove an excellent tale and he did not NEED graphic sex to do it.  On balance Martin never be in the same league as Tolkien and Jordan.

 

So Martin is a poorer storyteller because he has the balls to write something that some people can't deal with instead of a politically correct fade to black?

 

That's the explained by the 60 year difference (don't kill me if I'm 20 years wrong).

[erickm001]

 

 

The war of Westeros is right out of the Hundred Year War (minus the longbows).

The closest analogue would be the aforementioned Wars of the Roses, rather than the Hundred Years War. The historical Dance of Dragons in the series is analogous to the Anarchy.).

 

King Edward III intentional savaging of the peasantry to draw France's King Phillip out of his fortifications and onto the battlefield is where I see a parallel to ASoIaF. The common folk of Westoros suffer grievously in ASoIaF and this was much the same in the 100 Year War. With the exception of no Welsh longbows and no Genoese crossbows (these ended up in WOT) the battle tactics were much the same.

 

(I'm adding a comment. This is wrong. The 100 Year without the longbow is like World War 2 without the B-17. But the statement about the treatment of the peasantry is correct, I think.)

[Mr Ares]

The common folk of Westoros suffer grievously in ASoIaF and this was much the same in the 100 Year War.

Peasants tend to get rather a raw deal in any case. There may be any number of wars with some sort of similarity to the War of the Five Kings, but the closest similarities are in the Wars of the Roses. It is rather unsurprising that there are similarities in tactics between the 100YW and the Wot5K, because the 100YW and the WotR were very close to each other.

[mb]

I finished Game of Thrones Thursday February 26.  I read several chapters of Clash of Kings.

 

I think I still like both series equally.

 

[Razor]

What I am looking forward to is Danaerys (sp?) return with her huge army and kicking the crap out of all these characters that think they are going to take over. 

[mb]

Finished Clash of Kings today in the dark hours of the morning; not sure when I would start Storm of Swords.

Still think that I like both series equally.

 

[vainebekonnes]

Storm of Swords is the test book.  If you still like both series equally after that, then you do.  If you don't, then you don't.  Game of Thrones and Clash of Kings both test the reader, but not to the degree that Storm of Swords does.  On the other hand, that book I believe is the best PLOT that I have ever read.  I always have compared the plot of Storm of Swords to a rollercoaster ride in the dark.  Exciting, sometimes drastic, and there is no way you can see what is in front of you.  You more or less are just along for the ride.

 

In regards to darker books, I too don't like the bad guys winning in the end.  However, I would like to point we haven't seen the end of ASoIaF yet.  I want to see good triumph, but I want to see good have to sacrifice to triumph.  That makes it more heroic to me.  I guess you could say that I prefer bittersweet endings.  I like the bad guys winning as the story progresses.  I like things to become increasingly darker as the story continues.  When things get bad, real bad, is when you see the greatest heroism.  WoT does this to some extent for me, but I particularly love the characters and the world.  In WoT, you have seen the characters go through some pretty horrible situations, and many have already had to sacrifice a great deal, even if by the end of each book you normally have the Light coming out on top, or at the very least, a stalemate (Books 7&8).  GRRM tends to be more severe in this manner, but I have no doubt that if we ever see the end of the story, good will eventually triumph.  If evil wins in the very end, that is when I will become upset.

[Mr Ares]

I guess you could say that I prefer bittersweet endings. GRRM tends to be more severe in this manner, but I have no doubt that if we ever see the end of the story, good will eventually triumph. If evil wins in the very end, that is when I will become upset.

Considering Martin has said his ending will be bittersweet, I think you can rest easy.

[vainebekonnes]

I guess you could say that I prefer bittersweet endings. GRRM tends to be more severe in this manner, but I have no doubt that if we ever see the end of the story, good will eventually triumph. If evil wins in the very end, that is when I will become upset.

Considering Martin has said his ending will be bittersweet, I think you can rest easy.

Thanks, I hadn't read that before.

[mb]

This thread started with the question on which book will come out first.

From the Citadel site (a Song of Ice and Fire site), George completed Dance with Dragons.  Here is the page:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/1968/

Tower of the Hand (another Song of Ice and Fire site) tells it might be released October 30-November 2.  Here is that page:

http://www.towerofthehand.com/essays/johnny/tracking_adwd.html

 

[Thorum]

The first link doesn't say he has finished it. It says he will say when he has finished it.

[ShadowsFell]

According to Amazon.com, A Dance with Dragons will be released Sep 29th, 2009.

[RobertAlexWillis]

According to Amazon.com, A Dance with Dragons will be released Sep 29th, 2009.

 

According to GRR Martin, he doesn't yet know when it will be finished.

[Mr Ares]

According to Amazon.com, A Dance with Dragons will be released Sep 29th, 2009.

If release dates don't exist, it is necessary to invent them. There cannot be a confirmed release date until the author has actually finished writing the book.

[stevemc]

i think amazon has updated that to oct 29th with the gathering storm on nov 3rd i think.

close

[mb]

According to GRR Martin, he doesn't yet know when it will be finished.

 

Publication dates (and other deadlines) I take are decided by the publisher, not by the author.

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Publication dates (and other deadlines) I take are decided by the publisher, not by the author.

 

Yes, and also not by the bookseller.

 

But the publisher can't publish it until the author actually finishes, and according to him, he's not finished.

[CUBAREY]

According to GRR Martin, he doesn't yet know when it will be finished.

 

Publication dates (and other deadlines) I take are decided by the publisher, not by the author.

 

 

A publisher could still not publish a book that has not been finished. They can set a dealine (which might cost GRR Martin money if he does not meet it) and set a Publication date but if the author actually tells them that he does not know when the book would be finsished most publishers would not announce a definative publication date as they would be really pissing off retailers (especially Amazon or the giant bookstores that control the flow of books to the consumers) if they did not deliver the books on the date they announced.

[mb]

Barnes and Noble now has Dance with Dragons available for pre-order.

The release date they tell is September 29; though no confirmation on George Martin's site.

 

Bought Storm of Swords with Crossroads of Twilight and other books on Saturday.

 

[Mr Ares]

Barnes and Noble now has Dance with Dragons available for pre-order. The release date they tell is September 29; though no confirmation on George Martin's site.

And therefore should continue to be taken with a pinch of salt. Until Martin announces he's done, those dates don't mean a damn thing.