Woman Dead and Gone

[callandor]

How is this so hard to get? Min saw a viewing about rand needing someone. But it was of someone "dead and gone," and she asks herself how could she tell him that he would almost certainly fail without this person? If the person is dead, and everyone believes she is dead, then most people would assume that that viewing is wrong, because obviously no one can come back from the dead. She later says about two pages or three pages later that Moiraine was her only failed viewing. 2 + 2 = Moiraine was the person she was talking about. Later on, I don't remember where somewhere in KoD, Rand says something about if she can be wrong about Moiraine, why not other viewings. It is when he gives the two boy's in tear some gold and then wants to find them because he thinks she has a viewing of their death, and he doesn't want two kids killed if he can stop it. So even Rand knows about her viewing of Moiraine and how it failed, but I don't remember when he found out.

 

In short, Min's viewing is about Moiraine, who everyone believes is gone.

[Majsju]

 

The candidates I now think would be one of these:

-A woman that has already died and has returned from death; Aviendha (with her own soul), Cabriana Mecandes (with soul of Lanfear) certainly fit this.

No.

 

-A currently dead woman that will be resurrected; countless women could fit this.

No.

 

-A currently living woman that will die and would afterward be brought back from death though some means; some women might have opportunity for this.

No.

 

Simply put, until you manage to understand that Min is talking about Moiraine, your opinion on the matter is wrong and irrelevant.

[Sylvia]

I say the dead and gone lady is Moraine...End of story.

 

But as a side note, how do you think Rand will react when he see's Moraine after Mat saves her. She is the reason why he has that huge list of women he's sent to die in his head....I think he'll flip a lid and go crazy....ish

[Shard]

I say the dead and gone lady is Moraine...End of story.

 

But as a side note, how do you think Rand will react when he see's Moraine after Mat saves her. She is the reason why he has that huge list of women he's sent to die in his head....I think he'll flip a lid and go crazy....ish

 

Yeah I think Moraine's name is in big flaming (literally) letters at the top of his list. So I think having her come back in the flesh may hopefully aleviate the guilt somehow but he'd probably still blame himself for her imprisonment and kick himself for not being the one to go get her in the first place.

[Sylvia]

EXACTLY! But I think that everything that he's been basing his life off of (IE dead women and what not) being shot down that quickly will snap his brain....

[mb]

Simply put, until you manage to understand that Min is talking about Moiraine, your opinion on the matter is wrong and irrelevant.

My opinion wrong?  Maybe.  Though any reader's opinion can be wrong until the books explicitly tell.

Irrelevant? Unlikely; I generally try to look at the evidence at hand.

 

Can you prove that Min is talking about Moiraine?

Failed viewing/viewings; Min thinking/believing Moiraine dead; comments several pages after; those I would not count as proof.

If the author commented on this and said something other than "Read And Find Out", that I would count as proof.  Other than that, the paragraph's context I would see as relevant.

 

 

A comment from another thread about this topic that I shall comment on:

People are sometimes identified by description, even when their identity is know.

I do not recall any of the Viewings using description instead of a person's name.  Descriptions in the Viewings seem to be limited to unknown identities.

 

[Dark Justice]

well... you are blinded by your decire to be right about this matter.

 

ACOS: 35, Into the Woods, 543 : He would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone..

ACOS: 35, Into the Woods, 546 : it was not as if she had really expected Moiraine to turn up alive. Moiraine was the only viewing of hers that had ever failed.

 

theese are 3 pages apart. Why is there any reason to think she is not thinking about the same viewing?

[luftstark]

I was adamant about it being Moiraine... but ... now... i'm... thinking... about... Lanfear...

 

I mean... all arrows point to Moiraine. But ... does any NOT POINT to Lanfear???

 

Besides the "one failed view" logic ... is there any evidence that it could not be Lanfear??

 

The Thom-Moiraine marriage view is not out of the table (there is nothing said against it), so the failed view could be it. The Rand+Dead-and-Gone-Woman view could be a "if" view... and Min could be accepting it already... so it may not mean Moiraine!!!

 

The only question is:

 

Does Min see Lanfear at any point???

 

I dunno if she can know a person from a viewing that she never saw, but it may be more evidence if she did saw it.

 

Please... don't kill me!! it's just some health discussion =DDD

[Dark Justice]

I was adamant about it being Moiraine... but ... now... i'm... thinking... about... Lanfear...

 

I mean... all arrows point to Moiraine. But ... does any NOT POINT to Lanfear???

 

Besides the "one failed view" logic ... is there any evidence that it could not be Lanfear??

 

The Thom-Moiraine marriage view is not out of the table (there is nothing said against it), so the failed view could be it. The Rand+Dead-and-Gone-Woman view could be a "if" view... and Min could be accepting it already... so it may not mean Moiraine!!!

 

The only question is:

 

Does Min see Lanfear at any point???

 

I dunno if she can know a person from a viewing that she never saw, but it may be more evidence if she did saw it.

 

Please... don't kill me!! it's just some health discussion =DDD

 

Dear Creator, I hope you are joking...

[mb]

Does Min see Lanfear at any point???

Min did see Lanfear.  It was when she (Min) was huddling over Rand at the end of Great Hunt.

 

Besides the "one failed view" logic ... is there any evidence that it could not be Lanfear??

 

The Thom-Moiraine marriage view is not out of the table (there is nothing said against it), so the failed view could be it. The Rand+Dead-and-Gone-Woman view could be a "if" view... and Min could be accepting it already... so it may not mean Moiraine!!!

I think I agree.

 

[Mr Ares]

People are sometimes identified by description, even when their identity is know.

Descriptions in the Viewings seem to be limited to unknown identities.

It's not a description in a Viewing, though.

[mb]

People are sometimes identified by description, even when their identity is know.

Descriptions in the Viewings seem to be limited to unknown identities.

It's not a description in a Viewing, though.

"woman who was dead and gone" is a description, and seems not an identifier; and the Encyclopaedia site identifies the whole thing as a Viewing.

 

[Kadere]

Does Min see Lanfear at any point???

Min did see Lanfear.  It was when she (Min) was huddling over Rand at the end of Great Hunt.

 

And oh my god, she didn't have any viewings about Lanfear! What a shocker! And we KNOW that since we have her PoV at the time! So we know it's not Lanfear! Wooooooooooooooooow! Just like we know it's not Aran'gar because Min never MET Aran'gar, and we know it's not Aviendha because Min hasn't MET Aviendha by ACoS, that doesn't happen until WH. Oh boy! In fact we KNOW it's Moiraine! Not only is she the ONLY woman who fits, but then Min refers to Moiraine as being the only viewing of hers that's ever failed! And on top of that we also know that Moiraine is alive and will therefore fulfill Min's viewings after her rescue! Because we also know that Min is HUMAN and  therefore doesn't always have to believe in herself especially when any rational person at the time would think Moiraine is dead!

 

But please, PLEASE! List more woman who could never actually fit. I like proving that they don't work. Or better yet, argue with the facts in the book some more. That's even better.

[mb]

The person would not necessarily be someone Min met; nor necessarily a person with a failed viewing; nor necessarily someone Min thinks/believes dead; nor necessarily someone mentioned in the chapter; but a person that came back (or will come back) from death through some means.

 

The person that fits I still think would be one of these:

-A woman that has already died and has returned from death.

-A currently dead woman that will be resurrected.

-A currently living woman that will die and would afterward be brought back from death though some means.

 

Until there is proof otherwise, I might still think that.

And by proof I would count as a non-RAFO comment from the author about this; or if there is not any, the very paragraph I would consider relevant.

 

 

ACOS: 35, Into the Woods, 543 : He would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone..

ACOS: 35, Into the Woods, 546 : it was not as if she had really expected Moiraine to turn up alive. Moiraine was the only viewing of hers that had ever failed.

 

theese are 3 pages apart. Why is there any reason to think she is not thinking about the same viewing?

By what happens in between, we cannot be certain if it is a return to the topic.  There is no mention of the viewing's aura looking similar to her.

 

[demeroe]

The person would not necessarily be someone Min met; nor necessarily a person with a failed viewing; nor necessarily someone Min thinks/believes dead; nor necessarily someone mentioned in the chapter; but a person that came back (or will come back) from death through some means.

 

We know it is someone who Min thinks/believes is dead, because she refers to the person as such -

"He would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone."

 

The line above is not the actual viewing. It is Min thinking back to her viewing and refering to the person she saw in it as "a woman who was dead and gone". Min does not speak prophecy like a 'foretelling', she sees things and then relates them in her own words. In this case I am certain she saw Moiraine and refers to her in that way in her own mind.

[Mr Ares]

People are sometimes identified by description, even when their identity is know.

Descriptions in the Viewings seem to be limited to unknown identities.

It's not a description in a Viewing, though.

"woman who was dead and gone" is a description, and seems not an identifier; and the Encyclopaedia site identifies the whole thing as a Viewing.

We do not have the Viewing, we have Min remembering a Viewing, and no reason to accept that "a woman dead and gone" was actually a part of the Viewing, so much as a description added later, by Min. So it is not a description in a Viewing, but a description of a Viewing.

[mb]

People are sometimes identified by description, even when their identity is know.

Descriptions in the Viewings seem to be limited to unknown identities.

It's not a description in a Viewing, though.

"woman who was dead and gone" is a description, and seems not an identifier; and the Encyclopaedia site identifies the whole thing as a Viewing.

We do not have the Viewing, we have Min remembering a Viewing, and no reason to accept that "a woman dead and gone" was actually a part of the Viewing, so much as a description added later, by Min. So it is not a description in a Viewing, but a description of a Viewing.

Yet still, the phrase does not identify.

Description of a Viewing?  It seems to me that all Viewings are the actual auras and the words to tell them are descriptions of them.  (How else to tell them except by description? This is a rhetorical question.)

 

[Roxinos]

You're right. In your terms, though, what we have is a description of a description.

 

There is the aura. Min saw the aura and knew what it meant. We hear her description of what she understood it to meant. We did not actually hear what she understood it to mean.

[The Doctor]

well... damn.  It's definitely Moiraine.  It's the most obvious hint RJ ever put into the whole series.  It doesn't take a detective to figure this out.  It actually blows my mind that the topic could raise a 4 page thread.  In fact I know after reading this thread just how Rand would feel when confronted by dead woman NO. 1 still being alive, like all logic has collapsed and his mind exploded in a whirlwind of chaos, because that's how I feel when I see that there is even a question about this.

[Dmitri]

well... damn.  It's definitely Moiraine.  It's the most obvious hint RJ ever put into the whole series.  It doesn't take a detective to figure this out.  It actually blows my mind that the topic could raise a 4 page thread.  In fact I know after reading this thread just how Rand would feel when confronted by dead woman NO. 1 still being alive, like all logic has collapsed and his mind exploded in a whirlwind of chaos, because that's how I feel when I see that there is even a question about this.

 

Well, as far as I see, there's only mb who continues to take this "woman dead and gone" for someone else than Moiraine.

It goes on for quite a long time and no-one can do anything about this...  ;D

 

[water_seeker]

Anybody think that it's Kari al'Thor?  Me either cause it's Moiraine.

[Shard]

When I first read that part of the series I used to think it was Birgitte, but I think Min has actually met her so it's Moiraine.

[Gentled Ben]

From discussing this in other threads, my opinion about this viewing may seem to have changed; that is probably so.

 

The candidates I now think would be one of these:

-A woman that has already died and has returned from death; Aviendha (with her own soul), Cabriana Mecandes (with soul of Lanfear) certainly fit this; probably also Lanfear.

-A currently dead woman that will be resurrected; countless women could fit this.

-A currently living woman that will die and would afterward be brought back from death though some means; some women might have opportunity for this.

Moiraine

 

Fixed.  :D

[mb]

From discussing this in other threads, my opinion about this viewing may seem to have changed; that is probably so.

 

The candidates I now think would be one of these:

-A woman that has already died and has returned from death; Aviendha (with her own soul), Cabriana Mecandes (with soul of Lanfear) certainly fit this; probably also Lanfear.

-A currently dead woman that will be resurrected; countless women could fit this.

-A currently living woman that will die and would afterward be brought back from death though some means; some women might have opportunity for this.

Moiraine

Fixed.  :D

Crossing out previous statements and adding something else, that is a wrong practice.  It would be better to address the comments directly instead of claiming something else was said.

Or if you would continue the practice anyway, at least correct the grammar.

By the way, those who read the actual post would know I did not say the added thing.

 

[Gentled Ben]

I wouldn't want them to think that you had actually crossed those out yourself, mb, as I agree that it isn't cool to misrepresent in that way what another poster has said. I figured the laughing smiley and the word "fixed" would indicate that I had done that, and that I had done that for the purposes of humor.