Twisted Doorway Fight

[Alderthal]

Well, here's what I think of the fight and its sequelae.

 

1 - Lanfear was using a terangreal at the time when she was tossed through the doorway. I'm not sure if it's the correct reason for the hallway melting, but it's possible.

 

2 - The Finns on the other side of the doorway are those who strike bargains. I figure the fight was halted by the Finns, and each was taken someplace to get her bargains fulfilled.

 

I'd imagine one of Moiraine's wishes was that Cyndane loses some/all of her power. As for Cyndane, one of her wishes would probably be that Moiraine was trapped there forever? (or maybe they can no longer release them, since the doorway melted down, I dunno).

 

But Moiraine is alive. Egwene dreamt of a shadowed woman beckoning Mat to great danger and of Thom sticking his hand in a fire and plucking out the blue stone that hung around Moiraine's head from it. Add to that Min's viewings, and Moiraine's letter (penned after the trip through the Rhuidian terangreal, where a woman sees all the future possibilities of her life and comes back remembering some), and it's very very likely she'll be rescued at the cost of one of Mat's eyes.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

In this place, however, it was not a matter of asking questions and receiving answers, but of striking bargains for what you want.

In the bit I highlighted, RJs own words state that, as opposed to what Mat thought about simply asking questions and being given an answer, in this incedent it was about striking a bargain.

Yep.

 

Striking bargains. Not saying "You take away Lanfears power/kill her/imprision her and I'll hand over my power."

 

She'd have to bargain, she wouldn't necessarily get what she wanted.

Regarding Lanfear, while the Finns may very well have recognised her the fact that she was Forsaken doesnt necessarily mean anything to the Finns. I see them as a neutral party, because they dont answer anything too close to the Shadow. Lanfear would have been treat the same as Lanfear I think; my guess is that Moiraine tricked the Finns.

How does "not answering anything to close to the Shadow" make them neutral?

 

Surely, if they were truely neutral, they'd answer any and all questions?

 

Regardless if Moiraine tricked the Finns into doing anything it was they who, in my opinion, killed Lanfear.

 

Why did they kill Lanfear and not Moiraine? In my opinion, because Lanfear was a Forsaken, and linked to the Shadow, which makes the Finns' arses twitch.

Moiraine and Lanfear arived in a fight that destroyed the doorway ter'angreal--and if what occured this side of the doorway is any judge they also created a verocious fire--essentially they in one blow cut off a valued source of trade, and created light, specifically forbidden.

 

Both are reasons for any merchant to not offer a person trade--after all, what merchant offers their product to someone who has kicked down their door and stopped any further trade from coming.

Exactly.

 

Beyond that, what merchant offers trade to someone whom they could take everything they wanted from anyway. both Moiraine and Lanfear were severed when they fell through the door--they couldn't protect themselves.

And their severing was clearly a punishment.

 

Moiraine had stepped through a doorway before. Lan was her warder, he did not mention anything like the "snapping" of the bond occuring before. Likewise, Rand's been through, yet he can channel.

 

They were severed for some reason, be it channeling like madwomen, starting a fire, or destroying the doorway. One of the above got them severed.

Cyndane directly states that the Finn held her, yet we see that the Power works against the finn.

Yes, but they also, clearly, have the ability to severe channelers. So, the effectiveness of the Power can be reduced, depending on who's reacting and acting fastest.

The fact is that Moiraine and Lanfear were made prisoners. They were not offered wishes--or answers.

Technically, we don't know if they were given answers. Cyndane hasn't mentioned it, IIRC.

Moiraine got em though. She'd be dead by now otherwise

How did she "get" them?

 

Lanfear didn't, she was killed.

 

Why would Moiraine be able to, when Lanfear, the more knowledgeable, and powerful of the two, couldn't?

If that's the case, perhaps Lanfear was killed (or perhaps simply died) because she passed through the doorway while channelling

Quite possibly.

Moiraine, on the other hand, could have been just another person passing through the gateway and may have been granted the same rules as anyone else.  She may have "wished" to stay there until rescued and offered information or allowed rummaging through her experiences as payment.  Or she may have made another "wish" based on information she received from the doorway in Tear.

But the bargain she struck would have made mention of her being severed. Which is a very steep price, unless she knew Nyn/Flinn could heal it... She seems to know an awful lot of things if that'd be the case.

I find it much more likely that once through the doorway, Moiraine simply dropped to the floor for cover and let Lanfear get herself in trouble, than attempting any wheeling and dealing.  Remember, she was basicly using the Finns to despose of their enemy, a fact that would not have been lost on them.  I doubt highly that she got any wishes out of the deal.  They may have even treated her more harshly, for her clear manipulation.  Lanfear gets put out of her misery, while they keep Moirane alive to toy with.

That's more or less how I imagine it going.

 

I think the severing was punishment for breaking the rules, not the result of a bargain.

I still think that her statement of living is/was merely her belief.

 

Even with her prior knowledge of the future, even she could not be entirely certain of if she would live or not.

 

Min's viewings are not necessarily about what Min believes, just about what she sees.  For Moiraine to fulfill the one mentioned, Moiraine would have needed to die at some point and afterwards be resurrected.

Right, gotcha.

 

OK. She has Min, a woman who, as far as she is aware (and as far as we are aware), has never been wrong with regarding a viewing. She also has the doorframe information. Ref. Thom and wedding bells. She's also an Aes Sedai. She doesn't seem given to making confident statements based from a gut feeling.

The references to the tower do not prove whether Moiraine lives or not.

No, they don't.

 

But, step back a little, forget the POVs etc. Think about it in terms of an author writing a story.

 

Now, explain to me why RJ talks about Snakes and Foxes, the Tower of G., the letter, the references to Moiraine getting married, Egwenes dreams (as mentioned by Alderthal) involving both Thom and Mat, Mins viewings, etc., if he doesn't intend to bring her back?

 

Since Book 4 there has been an accumulation of bits and pieces that have gradually coalesced to form the general assumption on DM that Moiraine is coming back. That's 8 Books...

 

It's either, a., a total waste of time, or, b., a enormous red herring, or, c., a set up for her return.

 

To me, given the time and effort involved, it's got to be C.

 

The accumulated knowledge, and "evidence" valid, or otherwise, strongly suggests that she'll be around in AMOL.

[Jethro]

How does "not answering anything to close to the Shadow" make them neutral?

 

Surely, if they were truely neutral, they'd answer any and all questions?

 

Regardless if Moiraine tricked the Finns into doing anything it was they who, in my opinion, killed Lanfear.

 

Why did they kill Lanfear and not Moiraine? In my opinion, because Lanfear was a Forsaken, and linked to the Shadow, which makes the Finns' arses twitch.

 

If they wont answer a question too close to the Shadow, then that means they will only help the Light so far and thus means they arent tied to the Light/good side. It also means they wont help the Dark with any of their internal problems if it gets too close to the Dark One, if my understanding is right, which means they arent tied to the evil side either. Neutral doesnt mean they will help anyone, it means they will help anyone as long as it doesnt put themselves in danger.

 

They reveal what they wish as long as it meets the terms. Neither good or evil means neutral, does it not?

 

As for the Finns killing Lanfear, thats exactly what I said. My theory is that Moiraine tricked them into letting her offer Lanfear as a price for her three answers. Anyone who is neutral may still be influenced by good or evil.

 

I very much think Moiraine got her three requests or whatever, otherwise she would be dead. And I also think that during the rescue, Slayer will turn up, Noal will be exposed as Jain Farstrider, and Mat may eliminate Slayer

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

If they wont answer a question too close to the Shadow, then that means they will only help the Light so far and thus means they arent tied to the Light/good side.

No, it doesn’t.

 

It means they won’t answer a question too closely related to the Shadow.

 

That’s it.

 

What does it have to do with helping anyone?

It also means they wont help the Dark with any of their internal problems if it gets too close to the Dark One, if my understanding is right, which means they arent tied to the evil side either.

Again, you’re assuming they “help” people.

 

I don’t think they do. I think they trade for things they want and give things in return.

Neutral doesnt mean they will help anyone, it means they will help anyone as long as it doesnt put themselves in danger.

No it doesn’t.

 

“Neutral” doesn’t necessarily mean they’ll help anyone.

 

All “neutral” means is that they’re not willing to take sides.

 

It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with “helping” anyone.

Neither good or evil means neutral, does it not?

Literally, maybe.

 

However, someone can be “evil” and yet not lined up on one side or another during any specific conflict.

 

E.g. if someone were “evil”, say if they ate babies, murdered, and raped, does that naturally mean they’re lined up with the Dark One? No.

 

Remember the “Not everyone’s a DF” routine from early in the series? I think it was either Lan or Moiraine telling the boys that even the toughest street thug, or cutpurse would take offense at being called a DF.

 

- Same deal here. Nasty people do not equal the Shadow.

As for the Finns killing Lanfear, thats exactly what I said. My theory is that Moiraine tricked them into letting her offer Lanfear as a price for her three answers.

Yeah, I got it. I disagree, on the basis that I don’t believe either Lanfear or Moiraine got their wishes.

Anyone who is neutral may still be influenced by good or evil.

That assumes that the good or evil person is in a position to exert or gain influence.

 

To me, it doesn’t look as if Moiraine was. She was stilled pretty much immediately, judging from Lan’s response.

 

I think she had the weaker hand, and I think she suffered because of it.

I very much think Moiraine got her three requests or whatever, otherwise she would be dead.

Why?

 

On the basis that “they” killed Lanfear?

And I also think that during the rescue, Slayer will turn up, Noal will be exposed as Jain Farstrider, and Mat may eliminate Slayer

Sounds good.

 

Slayer’s almost a certainty I’d say.

[Majsju]

Slayer’s almost a certainty I’d say.

 

Quite an assumption. Last time I checked, Slayer worked as an assassin for the shadow, not a bodyguard for the finns... ;D

[Jethro]

Sounds good.

 

Slayer’s almost a certainty I’d say

 

We agree on something! Great. My assumption that Moiraine got her wishes is that she is alive. Its an assumption, granted.

 

Quite an assumption. Last time I checked, Slayer worked as an assassin for the shadow, not a bodyguard for the finns

 

And last time I checked, Slayer could get into the Tower of Ghenji. Nothing wrong with putting two ideas together is there? Slayer may even be drawn to go to the Tower at the same time as Mat due to Mat being Ta'veren, we never know.

[Swigaro]

 

And last time I checked, Slayer could get into the Tower of Ghenji. Nothing wrong with putting two ideas together is there? Slayer may even be drawn to go to the Tower at the same time as Mat due to Mat being Ta'veren, we never know.

 

 

Not exactly.  Slayer knows where the Tower of Ghenji is located, but we have no hard evidence that he has entered it.  Granted, he lead Perrin to the Tower in the dream world, then dissapeared, but did he enter the tower or simply leave the dream world to make Perrin think he went into the Tower.  He may know what it is, and how dangerous it is, but we have not seen him enter it.  I would contend he was trying to do exactly what Moiraine did, use the 'Finns to get rid of someone.

[Majsju]

I would say that Slayer leading Perrin to TOG rather hints at him not having any connection to the finns. He knows that Perrin is an important player in the war, why give such an enemy that kind of information.

Also, we know how you enter the tower, and we never saw Slayer doing that little ritual, he just vanished.

[BKVMC]

what was it  Birgitte  said regarding the  finns something like  they arent evil  but are so  alien  compared to  humanity  that  they are a different  kind ?

 

Anyway  i dont  think the  fins care so  much about good and evil  and  what happens to  randlanders  i think they  only  have an aversion to  the dark  one in relation to  him breaking  time  as they  seem  to  be  free flowing  in and out  of it and it would destroy them if the  wheel was broke.

 

in relation to  slayer and the tower iirc  the  text was he  ducked around it  not in it  but i could be mistaken.

 

I personally  think that no bargains were made with  Moiraine or lanfear and that moiraine is more of a  prisoner for  violating  their edicts.

[Thor]

I would say that Slayer leading Perrin to TOG rather hints at him not having any connection to the finns. He knows that Perrin is an important player in the war, why give such an enemy that kind of information.

Also, we know how you enter the tower, and we never saw Slayer doing that little ritual, he just vanished.

 

slayer was trying to trick Perrin into going into the tower.  If birgitte wasn't there to stop perrin, perrin would have gone around it 3 times, then slayer could have reappeared to coerce perrin into stabbing the tower.

[RAND AL THOR]

I believe that you need to draw a certain shape (S & F symbol) to gain entry.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Slayer’s almost a certainty I’d say.

 

Quite an assumption. Last time I checked, Slayer worked as an assassin for the shadow, not a bodyguard for the finns... ;D

Ahhh well, according to the saying I'm sure I'll end up looking like an ass.

[Roka]

In her POV, right before tackeling Lanfear, Moiraine embraces the source.  I remember putting forth a theory years ago that Moiraine wasn't necessarily stilled, only to be swiftly put down by Roka Smarti.  She may not have been actively channeling, but she was holding the source.  I tend to agree with Luckers on this one.  She would likely suffer the same wrath as Lanfear, being, proveriably in the wrong place at the wrong time.  The big difference is that she knew what was about to happen, and that she had a chance at rescue.  I find it much more likely that once through the doorway, Moiraine simply dropped to the floor for cover and let Lanfear get herself in trouble, than attempting any wheeling and dealing.  Remember, she was basicly using the Finns to despose of their enemy, a fact that would not have been lost on them.  I doubt highly that she got any wishes out of the deal.  They may have even treated her more harshly, for her clear manipulation.  Lanfear gets put out of her misery, while they keep Moirane alive to toy with.

it's Roka Smrti! not Smarti! It means death, and I was right, so...

[Swigaro]

You were indeed.  Sorry Roka, I knew it didn't look right. I couldn't remember the correct spelling, nor could I find an old post with your full name. 

[mb]

The passage of going through the Aelfinn doorway might shed some light on this situation.

 

When Moiraine comes out and sees Mat & Rand, she says "You! You wer both in there. That is why...!"

She cuts herself off.  Very likely something happened Moiraine knew should not have happened; perhaps also something almost happened.  Maybe her warder bond came close to breaking.

 

Then she implies that there are situations where the connection could become completely torn.  Maybe the terangreal burning might be one.

 

Though these things might depend on if the two terangreal (doorways) were made in a similar manner.

 

[Cybertrolloc]

Lanfear had an angreal, not a terangreal. Lanfear was channeling through it, Moiraine knocked it away then tackled her through the door. Recall that OP overdose is bad, but didn't result in Lanfear's death since she was held by the Finn. Don't know if there's angreal/terangreal interactions like those with terangreal/terangreal (heh that puts Elayne's experimental methods with them in a worse light--pull terangreal out of hamper of them, channel at it).

 

Holding the power or channeling while going through the door may not be a problem, since Rand did this in Tear unless he tied off the weave when he waved a sword of fire at them. We know the other door only allowed Mat through once, which jives with the bits of history about it we get.