A great deal

[Blade]

Well I've been thinking about this for a bit, thinking about the balance shift of power and whatnot, but after a while I think that Perrin made a really awesome deal. Perrin got his wife back at a very minimal cost, and at the same time was able to destroy the Shaido, a big problem to rand and the world. In turn Tylee got about 400 Aiel Channelers. Now at first that seems all well and good, but then I got to thinking, Aiel are notorious for not breaking under extreme torture for days right? So I'm thinking that Seanchan are probably going to have a very, very hard, if not impossible time in 'taming them' to the leash. In the end I fully expect the Aiel to find a way to escape and wreak some havoc on the way out. After all, Egwene wasn't able to force her way past the pain or whatnot when she had the collor on, but the Aiel might be able to.

[Nightstrike]

They might be meek the first year and one day. After that, they would probably escape if they ever got the slightest chance to do so...

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

They might be meek the first year and one day. After that, they would probably escape if they ever got the slightest chance to do so...

I doubt there'll be much meakness.

 

Wise Ones aren't allowed to be taken Gai'shain under Ji'e Toh (sp).

 

Good luck to the Seanchan I reckon. They'll need it.

[Jethro]

Were those Aiel channelers Shaido? I've only read KoD once so I cant remember some of the fine details.

[ROB_88]

Wise Ones aren't allowed to be taken Gai'shain under Ji'e Toh (sp).

 

but when has the Shaido ever cared about the Ji'e Toh?

the day they went past the spine of the world was the day they discarded Ji'e Toh. much have changed since then. they have no real right to use the Ji'e Toh in that purpose.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Wise Ones aren't allowed to be taken Gai'shain under Ji'e Toh (sp).

but when has the Shaido ever cared about the Ji'e Toh?

the day they went past the spine of the world was the day they discarded Ji'e Toh. much have changed since then. they have no real right to use the Ji'e Toh in that purpose.

How does that help suggest they'd be meek in any way?

 

Firstly, in Ji'e Toh the Wise Ones aren't allowed to be taken captive. Therefore, if the Shaido followed Ji'e Toh, then the Wise Ones would not be bound by the issue of self-subscribed meekness.

 

Alternatively, if the Shaido were not bound by Ji'e Toh, then, again, the Wise Ones are not bound by self-subscribed meekness.

 

So, in this specific discussion, the following (or not of Ji'e Toh) is actually irrelevent. Because, either way, the WOs don't have to be meek.

 

They can do whatever they like. I'm guessing that that won't be pleasant for the Seanchan.

Were those Aiel channelers Shaido? I've only read KoD once so I cant remember some of the fine details.

Yes, they were.

 

Many of them were taken alive due to the Forkroot used by Perrin to "poison" their water, making them unable to do much at all. They're now in the hands of the Seanchan. This all happened when the beardy one went after his wife.

[Jethro]

Nice one for the recap. As I said I've only read KoD once.

[Luckers]

In turn Tylee got about 400 Aiel Channelers. Now at first that seems all well and good, but then I got to thinking, Aiel are notorious for not breaking under extreme torture for days right? So I'm thinking that Seanchan are probably going to have a very, very hard, if not impossible time in 'taming them' to the leash. In the end I fully expect the Aiel to find a way to escape and wreak some havoc on the way out. After all, Egwene wasn't able to force her way past the pain or whatnot when she had the collor on, but the Aiel might be able to.

 

It wasn't the full 400, it was somewhere between 200 and 300. Tylee states 200 early on, and others would have been found, but we know many escaped.

 

That being said i REALLY look forward to the scenes involving Wise One damane.

[Thor]

I really don't care how supposedly strong anyone is.

 

If you get controlled by an adam, you will yield.  It's only a matter of time.  When something is strong enough to read your thoughts and counter it in exactly the way you don't want it to, there is absolutely no chance that any strength you have could keep you up.

 

Sorilea, Casuanne, Siuan, whoever.  All stand no chance.

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

I think an Aiel who truly take ji i toh to heart would endure any torture to avoid attacking their spear brothers and sisters.  However, I also think that most of the wise ones will quickly realize the only way to avoid torture is temporary obedience, and they won't mind attacking wetlanders or Rand's Aiel.

 

With removing the collar, it's not just dealing with pain and sickness - your hand and fingers also become numb, so the complicated latch becomes impossible to undo even for and Aiel who can handle the pain.

 

On the other hand, I could see Therava calmly undoing her leash, barely grimacing more than usual, freeing her allies, and wreaking havoc behind enemy lines.  She is badass enough.

[42Bonzo88]

    I agree that the Aiel can endure anything physical from the outside. Weather, pain, humiliation, injury, anything better than a wetlander. But the Ad'am is not like any of those things because the person holding the leash will know every emotion and feeling the Aiel will and can break them accordingly. They will be able to feel the Aiel trying to endure, so they do something else, then something else, and again, then something entirely different, then back to the original. Not even an Aiel could withstand all of that or endure it.

 

    I believe that the Aiel will give them hard times and if the sul'dam aren't ready for someone so strong willed, I could see some might escape but it would be very few. Where some Aes Sedai only took months to become good damane, Aiel may take years but even most of the strongest will eventually break.

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

On the other hand, I could see Therava calmly undoing her leash, barely grimacing more than usual, freeing her allies, and wreaking havoc behind enemy lines.  She is badass enough.

 

she wasn't captured.  unless you believe she will be during AMOL.

[Blade]

well I'm not so sure. If you'll recall a few books back (can't remember which one) we get a snap shot into the 'breaking' of damane. There is one where they use 'extreme' measures for breaking a damane by having her rewarded irregularly which results in more docile damane. Now, come on, Aiel aren't going to break after being denied some sweets or being given them irregularly. Also, the a'dam doesn't allow you to read someone's thoughts, only their emotions. I figure they're not gonna be getting much in the way of emotions from the Aiel.  I mean, seriously, the things they did to break others, I can't imagine them breaking Aiel. Take for instance, Egwene's case with the pitcher, forcing her to only use the pitcher. Now, we know damane are extremely valuable, so who do you think is going to win the battle of the wills first on that one? I think Aiel are willing to push themselves much further past any limits that the Seanchan have seen to date. However, it is true they can't push past their own a'dam, but what about other people's adam? I don't know if that route has been explored, but I don't think there would be anything in place keeping one Aiel from undoing another's collar given the chance

 

There's got to be some reason though that the damane are broken to the collar. Right now, any Sul'dam can link with any Damane and force them to do weaves anyways, so that doesn't matter. It's gotta be something similar to the warder Aes Sedai thing. Aes Sedai can bond warders against their wills, but it's impractical since the man might just turn on the Aes Sedai or will fight against her plans. In the same why the Damane must be broken because (in my opinion) there is somewhere out there a possibility of escape, or at the very least causing some kind of trouble to the Seanchan plans.

[JB Sedai]

The collared Wise Ones can easily feign meekness, and then be very "disobedient" in the midst of battle.  They don't fear pain, they don't fear death.  They do fear shame though, but until the suldam learn that, there will be no way of breaking them.

 

It'll be like arriving on the battlefield with 400 heavy cannon, and suddenly all the wheels break off, or the shot won't fit.

 

I think Perrin may have removed more than one thorn from Rand's foot.  He crushed most of the Shaido, chased away the rest, and gave the Seanchan false hope.  Also, he has Masema, but we'll have to see how that works out.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

When something is strong enough to read your thoughts and counter it in exactly the way you don't want it to, there is absolutely no chance that any strength you have could keep you up.

But adam don't allow the sul'dam to read thoughts, merely emotion. Assuming the cause of that emotion is, at best, an educated guess.

They will be able to feel the Aiel trying to endure, so they do something else, then something else, and again, then something entirely different, then back to the original.

But that depends entirely on how the Aiel resist pain.

 

For example, modern techniques for resisting torture revolve around distancing yourself mentally from the pain and its source.

 

So ... if the Aiel are doing the above, perhaps they'll be thinking of ponies and butterflies while being tortured. As a result, perhaps their emotional state will actually be quite serene.

 

We don't know what techniques the Aiel use, as we haven't had a POV from an Aiel being tortured. Egwenes POVs don't really count to me, she wasn't born to it, though she did a good job. All of Egwene's POVs revolve around instances when she is being punished for something she herself agrees she ought to be punished for (or at least has accepted being punished for)... I don't think it's quite the same.

 

Her POVs about a trip to the Mistress of Novices don't cut it, she's ignoring being spanked, not being tortured. It's a massive difference in intensity.

 

Enduring the pain, giving in to it, has been portrayed as a relatively easy thing for an Aiel to do, so who knows?

 

And, these are Wise Ones, they're harder than coffin nails. Harder than clan chiefs apparently.

I believe that the Aiel will give them hard times and if the sul'dam aren't ready for someone so strong willed, I could see some might escape but it would be very few.

Yeah, but we've also seen that training to be an Aes Sedai, in terms of comfort level, is like a summer camp when compared to Aiel life and training, especially the life and training of a Wise One.

I don't think there would be anything in place keeping one Aiel from undoing another's collar given the chance

Now there's an interesting thought.

 

Hmmm... I wonder.

 

I guess it depends on what the pain/spasms are caused by. If it's something neurological, then there's nothing anyone can do, surely? I mean, that's got to put you on your arse, no matter how bad ass you are, because you can't control your body's reactions. Sure, they could deal with the pain, but they couldn't stop their bodies from flapping about.

 

Interesting.

They do fear shame though, but until the suldam learn that, there will be no way of breaking them.

Hmmm.

 

Obviously, it's something the suldam would have to figure out. But ... their techniques don't appear to be shame-based. So ... how would they do that? Unless they stumble upon it...

 

Plus, we've seen how the Aiel, and the Shaido in particular, adjust their habits and their interpretation of Ji'e toh (sp) when they have exposure to foreigners. e.g. the taking of non-combatants as Gai'shain.

 

If the Aiel see the Seanchan as honorless, and that their treatment of the Aiel is honorless ... might they not be able to bend their interpretation of Ji'e toh to allow them to resist?

 

They might see it pointless to cling to honor when held by (in their view) honorless people... maybe. Alternatively, they might see it as being more important to hold to their honor.

 

In any case, it'll be interesting.

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

she wasn't captured.  unless you believe she will be during AMOL.

Oops! my bad

 

It would be interesting to see the sul'dam try to figure out what the Aiel are thinking - I bet they'll get strong feelings of pride/honor (ji) when the Aiel refuse orders and are punished, and shame when they obey.

 

Of course irregular rewards and ordinary pain can't break the Aiel, but they can be broken.  We saw Perrin do it, and the sul'dam will be much better than him.  They will discover that the Aiel mindset can be shattered with the right kind of treatment - Rand did it to thousands of Aiel who gave in to the bleakness, Sevanna did it through force of will and backbone (she DID break them - they started molesting gaishan, drinking too much, becoming lazy, etc).  Maybe the Aiel can endure pain, but there are so many more ways to shame someone than hurt them.

[Green Witch]

I think the Seanchan do have a code of honor and shame. That's what the "lowering of eyes" is about. It's a little different from the Aiel ji'e'toh, but to say the Seanchan have no honor isn't entirely correct.

I don't think the Shaido damane will be easy to break to the collar but some will be eventually. Do the Seanchan kill the channelers they can't break? I can't remember any reference to it. But it would make sense that if a weapon is useless in battle or as dangerous to you as your enemy, dispose of it in way that it can not be used to hurt you. The Seanchan are ruthless enough to do it. AT the same time, I wonder if the sul'dam who could not break the damane would ever regain face. The sul'dam who caused the death of a useful war animal might be shamed beyond hope of recovery. Or maybe based on the strength of Seanchan caste system in the Empire, sul'dam never had much difficulty breaking damane to the collar because the damane were complicit in their captivity. Now in the old land, the sul'dam are needing to subdue women who are used to being free or in charge. The Shaido might be fierce enough to resist long enough to force the Seanchan to some desperate measures.

[Blade]

no, they never kill the chanellers, so far they've always broken...or in a few instances managed to commit suicide. There's the point of view from one of the sul'dam who was collared who is still with the seanchan. She is going about her normal life and it talks about how the damane are so valuable they don't want to lose a single one. As for the Aiel way of dealing with pain, I disagree in that I believe that Egwene does tell us the way they deal with the pain. It talks about drinking in the pain, basically making the pain a part of you and your normal life, accepting and welcoming it, rather than distancing yourself from it.

 

Also, on the idea about collars, we see the two Sul'dam who were collared grabbing at each other's collars trying to get them off...so I would imagine it's probably different for touching someone else's collar, especially since they both managed to escape from the collars before anyone on the Seanchan side managed to find them, so there is some way out there to get out of them.

[vasu619]

Yeah, true the Aiel do fear shame, but even if the Seanchan manage to figure that out, they'll have to know what shames the Aiel. We know that they aren't shamed by many things "wetlanders" get shamed about.

[General Cauthon]

Also, on the idea about collars, we see the two Sul'dam who were collared grabbing at each other's collars trying to get them off...so I would imagine it's probably different for touching someone else's collar, especially since they both managed to escape from the collars before anyone on the Seanchan side managed to find them, so there is some way out there to get out of them.

 

I think Egeanin found them, and freed them because she was a friend with one of them. Or perhaps it was Suroth that freed them, and kept silent for "the good of the Empire"?

 

I don't remember, but I don't think they were able to free themselves.

I don't have my books with me, so I can't can't quote anything I'm afraid.

[Elwinn Taron]

Alwhin found them and freed them.  She told Suroth, and Suroth rewarded her for her silence by making her her Voice and raising her to the Blood.  Alwhin died by poisoning by Liandrin in the Tarasin Palace.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Of course irregular rewards and ordinary pain can't break the Aiel, but they can be broken.  We saw Perrin do it, and the sul'dam will be much better than him.  They will discover that the Aiel mindset can be shattered with the right kind of treatment - Rand did it to thousands of Aiel who gave in to the bleakness,

Yeah, but both Perrin and Rand broke the Aiel through shame. Rand essentially told them they were all oathbreakers and had been tinkers in the past. Perrin threatened to mutilate them so they'd have to beg to survive.

 

The Seanchan honor system is strange ... Do you understand it? I'm guessing that what the Seanchan think is shaming, is probably a little odd... The two systems coming into contact with each other could have some very strange results.

Sevanna did it through force of will and backbone (she DID break them - they started molesting gaishan, drinking too much, becoming lazy, etc).  Maybe the Aiel can endure pain, but there are so many more ways to shame someone than hurt them.

I'm not sure if it was Sevanna, or the experiences they went through, that damaged them.

 

I mean, they'd had thousands of their people killed. They'd faced the power in combat. They'd seen the Caracarn proclaimed and Couladin killed. They'd been moved thousands of miles from their home. They'd seen clan members leave to join Rand.

 

I mean, that'd screw up a lot of people. But broken? I'm not sure they were.

I think the Seanchan do have a code of honor and shame. That's what the "lowering of eyes" is about. It's a little different from the Aiel ji'e'toh, but to say the Seanchan have no honor isn't entirely correct.

MY BOLD.

 

I never said they don't have honor, I said the Aiel might not (in my opinion) see them as having honor.

 

I think the Aiel will see the Seanchan honor system (if they even recognise it as such) as being a total joke. I mean, imagine a Wise One seeing people prostrate themselves as one of the Blood enters a room?! LOL.

Do the Seanchan kill the channelers they can't break?

I don't think we've heard of a damane who didn't break.

 

There are some trainers who have mutilated their charges though. Tuon comments on it, with disgust, I believe.

Now in the old land, the sul'dam are needing to subdue women who are used to being free or in charge.

Yep. But, then again, they've broken all the Aes Sedai Damane we've seen.

 

As I posted earlier, Aes Sedai training is a piece of cake compared to Wise One training. Certainly in terms of resistance to pain, etc..

The Shaido might be fierce enough to resist long enough to force the Seanchan to some desperate measures.

I'd agree.

 

I think we're going to see lots of handless and tongueless Aiel damane soon. Still not sure if it'll work though.

As for the Aiel way of dealing with pain, I disagree in that I believe that Egwene does tell us the way they deal with the pain. It talks about drinking in the pain, basically making the pain a part of you and your normal life, accepting and welcoming it, rather than distancing yourself from it.

Sure.

 

But she was never tortured. She was enduring pain for a purpose, to acheieve a goal that she had set herself. Plus, she was an apprentice for a very short time.

 

All in all, I don't believe that she was capable of true Aiel-like resistance.

 

And, I stand by my statement, we haven't seen an Aiel POV when the subject is resisting severe pain/torture. The only Aiel POVs come from Aviendha. When has she been subjected to extreme pain, comparable to being broken by a Sul'dam?

[Luckers]

A few points. One, the Seanchan do not see this as torture, they see it as training--And their own honour binds them in that. The harm they do is for the greater good of the person they do it to. A direct parallel might by Egwene and Silviana--yes, the Seanchan take it further, but that belief in doing it for the persons own good limits them. And the Aiel method of dealing with pain seems very specifically capable of dealing with that.

 

As for shame--i see no way in which the Seanchan could shame the Aiel into shaming themselves with becoming pets--as is the goal of damane training.

 

Oh, there will doubtlessly be weak willed Wise Ones who give in, and even the stronger willed might well weaken under the ongoing pain inflicted by the a'dam--but i think there will be many that will hold out. Either way i look forward to the struggle.