One Power strength

[pxnsolid]

Im not suggesting the weave is different in Tar or out of it, but that the resulting severing was cause by the knock out and such. maybe the weaves are similar, but they arent the same, and similarity does not prove the seanchen know the difference. they very well could, but i dont recall reading anything to say so.

[Nightstrike]

Well, even so, Alivia shielding Cyndane would have done just fine. I don't know how skilled Moghedien was compared to Lanfear, but they were both trained in the OP during the AoL. So most weaves should have been known to them both. RJ said it was "skill" (not "Talents") that made Cyndane able to survive (and hurt) Alivia with *angreal. Nynaeve did well against Moghedien, and they were about equal in strength at the time. I doubt Nynaeve is much more skilled than Alivia. Nynaeve is a wilder, training to become AS less than a year at the time. She hasn't even had time to achieve much greater skill, even had she been able to channel whilst not angry at all times in the past. If Nynaeve had been much more than 2.0 times stronger than Moghedien, I think Moghedien would have bitten the dust big time. That makes me think that Cyndane is much stronger than Alivia without the *angreal.

 

 

 

 

 

[Mr Ares]

You're less than half right about that.

I am more than half right. I am, in fact, entirely right. We have some guidelines, yes. But there is enough flexibility in them for Alivia to be weaker or stronger than Cyndane, or equal to her. She might even be as strong as Lanfear. We cannot say, with certainty. We can't even say most likely this way, or that way. There is not enough evidence to justify Cyndane as stronger, or Alivia as stronger.

 

How does making weaves invisible give her any advantage at all, given that Alivia still got all her ter'angreal.

I don't know, how does the enemy being unable to see your attack coming give you any advantage? A normal weave could be seen. If Cyndane picked up a rock, Alivia could see and sever the flows. If the flows are invisible, she cannot see them, so she is reliant on seeing the rock coming. Hit her from behind... Just one of many possible examples.

 

Then why doesn't Alivia just brute force try to sever Cyndane directly like Lanfear tried to do to Rand?

How do you know she didn't?

 

Nynaeve did well against Moghedien, and they were about equal in strength at the time.

Yes, but their contest was one of strength. Not skill. Moghedien didn't have time to cut Nynaeve's weave, so she blocked it, and used a counter of her own, which Ny blocked. Deadlock. If Cyndane got into a similar fight, she would lose. Alivia was the stronger in the fight, and so could have held anything Cyndane threw at her, and countered when Cyndane was at the limit of her strength. However, there is more than one way to win a fight. Imagine two fighters. One much stronger than the other. The other far more skilled. The stronger cannot land the one solid blow he would need for victory. The weaker cannot end it with one blow, but he can keep moving, force the stronger to wear himself out, attack weak points when the opportunity presents itself. Alivia had brute force, but Cyndane had the skills necessary to survive. But that says nothing about their strengths relative to each other.

[Thor]

How does making weaves invisible give her any advantage at all, given that Alivia still got all her ter'angreal.

I don't know, how does the enemy being unable to see your attack coming give you any advantage? A normal weave could be seen. If Cyndane picked up a rock, Alivia could see and sever the flows. If the flows are invisible, she cannot see them, so she is reliant on seeing the rock coming. Hit her from behind... Just one of many possible examples.

 

Then why doesn't Alivia just brute force try to sever Cyndane directly like Lanfear tried to do to Rand?

How do you know she didn't?

 

 

A weave that cannot hurt or affect you directly in any way due to the ter'angreal can be ignored completely, regardless of whether it is visible or not.  Therfore Alivia could have gone all out offensive.  If she was so much stronger than Cyndanne and could go all out offensive without defending at all, then there is simply no logical explanation that Cyndanne could have escaped at all. 

 

This therefore means that Alivia even with the angreal was not much more powerful than Cyndanne and hence shows that Alivia unaided by the angreal would be significantly weaker than Cyndanne.

[Nightstrike]

Yes, but their contest was one of strength. Not skill.

Why do you claim that contest to be any different from the other fight? Moghedien and Lanfear were both trained during the AoL, Nynaeve and Moghedien were about equal in strength and Nynaeve isn't expected to be very skilled in the One Power (we have every reason to expect she wasn't in TSR, anyway).

 

Moghedien didn't have time to cut Nynaeve's weave, so she blocked it, and used a counter of her own, which Ny blocked. Deadlock.

Why would Cyndane have any more time than Moghedien. Cyndane tried some nasty weaves, and failed. After the failure, she manageded to hurt Alivia. The fights seem comparable in the "time" respect.

 

If Cyndane got into a similar fight, she would lose.

Why was the Cyndane/Alivia fight any different from the Moghedien/Nynaeve fight? And yes, she would lose (dead or shielded) if Alivia had been much more than 2 times stronger than her.

 

Alivia had brute force, but Cyndane had the skills necessary to survive. But that says nothing about their strengths relative to each other.

I have presented 2 independent arguments (one of them further back in this thread) that show us why we should expect Cyndane to be stronger than Alivia. You have presented 0 arguments to show us why we shouldn't. You continue to repeat yourself (a behaviour you clearly do not encourage from others). You say "we can't know". I've heard it already. Could you please give me any reason we should expect Alivia to be equal or stronger than Cyndane. Because I say that we got 0 reasons to expect that, which incidentally happens to be the same amount you've presented so far.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

A weave that cannot hurt or affect you directly in any way due to the ter'angreal can be ignored completely, regardless of whether it is visible or not.

Right. But not all weaves will be directly at her. Like I said, she could use invisible weaves to pick up a rock, and hit Alivia from behind. She can't see the weaves, so cutting them becomes harder, and if she doesn't know a rock is coming it is harder to avoid. What don't you understand about this?

Therfore Alivia could have gone all out offensive.

No. I already explained this. She doesn't need to fear direct attacks, but she is just as vulnerable as she was to indirect ones. And Cyndane has a greater knowledge of the Power.

This therefore means that Alivia even with the angreal was not much more powerful than Cyndanne and hence shows that Alivia unaided by the angreal would be significantly weaker than Cyndanne.

Not a logical conclusion, because you start from a faulty premise. You say she wouldn't need to defend, but you do nothing to justify this. She doesn't need to defend against direct weaves, but indirect effects of weaves will still harm her. If Cyndane used lightning, according to you, Alivia wouldn't need to defend. But we know that lightning would still kill her. So how would she survive? She has to put some effort into defence. Now, as you cannot show that Alivia is not that much more powerful, we cannot rule this out.

 

Why do you claim that contest to be any different from the other fight?

Because I read it.

 

Why would Cyndane have any more time than Moghedien?

Because when a weave is cut, it snaps back, thus staggering the person who had their weave cut. Moghedien's weave was cut, and snapped back. Cyndane's wasn't, and didn't, therefore she had more time to react to Alivia's weave.

 

Why was the Cyndane/Alivia fight any different from the Moghedien/Nynaeve fight?

Because Nynaeve/Moghedien degenerated quickly into a pure test of strength, in which they were both equally matched. Given that neither had any strength left over for an assault, given they were both fully committed, skill became an irrelevance. What decided it was not inequality in knowledge or strength with the Power, but Ny throwing something. With her hands. Cyndane/Alivia, on the other hand, was not a test of pure strength. If it was, Cyndane would have lost. That is undeniable. If they had squared off, with Cyndane putting all her strength into stopping Alivia, Alivia could have added more strength and overcome her. But Cyn was able to use her greater skill, her greater knowledge of the Power, to keep her off balance, and survive. Think of it like the Allies in Normandy, they outnumbered and ougunned the Germans but the Germas had better soldiers and better weapons. They lost, but they inflicted disproportionate losses, and significant delay. Or Kokoda Trail, perhaps, where the Australians fought a numerically superior, better armed, better trained army and won. History is full of examples. That is what we have here - Cyn won through her skills, and was able to counter Alivia's greater strength. Fact.

 

I have presented 2 independent arguments (one of them further back in this thread) that show us why we should expect Cyndane to be stronger than Alivia.

You have not presented an argument that has not been discredited.

You say "we can't know". I've heard it already.

But you still don't listen. We can't know. There is insufficient evidence. Simply saying, if she was that much stronger she would win easily, therefore she wasn't that much stronger, does not further your case. We are lacking evidence either way. There is no reason to accept your interpretation - that she must be weaker - over any other. None. If there is no reason to accept yours over anyone elses, why should we accept yours?

Because I say that we got 0 reasons to expect that

And the same as reasons to the contrary. How many times must I say it before it sinks in? NO EVIDENCE EITHER WAY. NO SOLID REASONS EITHER WAY. JUST PERSONAL PREFERENCE.

[Nightstrike]

Yeah, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree...

[Mr Ares]

Yeah, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree...

Or you could forward a decent argument. Either way.

[General Cauthon]

To use an example from the books that shows how skill can defeat strenght.

 

Rand vs Rahvin

Rand had an angreal, and was much stronger then Rahvin, but Rahvin would have won if Nynaeve and Moghedien hadn't arrived to save the day.

 

Mat in Maderin

Mat only had his knives, yet he killed 7 or 8 men with swords.

But the last remaining, a young woman, would have killed Mat, if Tuon hadn't helped.

 

Rand vs Fain (in Far Madding)

Rand was a Blademaster, while Fain only had a dagger. In this situation Rand is both more skilled, and stronger, yet Fain escapes.

 

 

Now tell me why it's "impossible" that Cyndane survived, even if Alivia was 3 times as strong as her.....

[Nightstrike]

Rand vs Rahvin

Rand had an angreal, and was much stronger then Rahvin, but Rahvin would have won if Nynaeve and Moghedien hadn't arrived to save the day.

Rahvin was hiding and striking from afar. Bad comparison.

 

Mat in Maderin

Mat only had his knives, yet he killed 7 or 8 men with swords.

But the last remaining, a young woman, would have killed Mat, if Tuon hadn't helped.

I don't see the relevance. Didn't he throw some of the knifes? And I believe they were fighting in a confined space, so they couldn't all come at him at once. And maybe they didn't have all the maneuvering space they could have wished for. Anyway, Mat didn't fight the woman determined to kill her. And most importantly, this was not a fight using the One Power.

 

 

Rand vs Fain (in Far Madding)

Rand was a Blademaster, while Fain only had a dagger. In this situation Rand is both more skilled, and stronger, yet Fain escapes.

Are you suggesting neither skill nor strength matters? Because that would be very, very odd...

 

 

Now tell me why it's "impossible" that Cyndane survived, even if Alivia was 3 times as strong as her.....

Because one that is much more than twice the strength can shield the other one, even if the other one is holding saidar. I've presented that argument further back in this thread.

 

 

[General Cauthon]

Rahvin was hiding and striking from afar. Bad comparison.

 

Rahvin ran, and led Rand into an ambush. How do you know Cyndane didn't do the same?

 

I don't see the relevance. Didn't he throw some of the knifes? And I believe they were fighting in a confined space, so they couldn't all come at him at once. And maybe they didn't have all the maneuvering space they could have wished for. Anyway, Mat didn't fight the woman determined to kill her. And most importantly, this was not a fight using the One Power.

 

 

I know this wasn't a fight with the Power, but it's an example that shows how the underdog can win under the right circumstances.

 

Are you suggesting neither skill nor strength matters? Because that would be very, very odd...

 

No, I'm saying that having greater strenght and skill doesn't necessarily mean victory. When Fain realized that he wouldn't be able to kill Rand, he fled. Why couldn't Cyndane have done the same?

 

Because one that is much more than twice the strength can shield the other one, even if the other one is holding saidar. I've presented that argument further back in this thread.

 

Rand was more then twice Rahvins strenght during their fight, yet that didn't help him much. Rahvin never gave Rand a chance to use his advantage, thus it became irrelevant. Why couldn't Cyndane have done the same?

 

My point is that we know nothing of the fight between Cyndane and Alivia. Everything is just speculation, and using speculation as proof for a theory is wasting our time.

[Nightstrike]

Rahvin ran, and led Rand into an ambush. How do you know Cyndane didn't do the same?

We know they fought face to face for a while. If Alivia was 3 times Cyndane's strength, then Cyndane couldn't have run away after the fight was initiated.

 

 

 

 

Are you suggesting neither skill nor strength matters? Because that would be very, very odd...

No, I'm saying that having greater strenght and skill doesn't necessarily mean victory. When Fain realized that he wouldn't be able to kill Rand, he fled. Why couldn't Cyndane have done the same?

We know they fought face to face for a while. If Alivia had been 3 times Cyndane's strength, she could easily have spent half her strength on maintaining a protective shield around herself and the other half on attacking Cyndane. That would still, in all probability, have kept Cyndane from flight - ultimately resulting in a victory for Alivia.

 

Because one that is much more than twice the strength can shield the other one, even if the other one is holding saidar. I've presented that argument further back in this thread.

Rand was more then twice Rahvins strenght during their fight, yet that didn't help him much. Rahvin never gave Rand a chance to use his advantage, thus it became irrelevant. Why couldn't Cyndane have done the same?

 

My point is that we know nothing of the fight between Cyndane and Alivia. Everything is just speculation, and using speculation as proof for a theory is wasting our time.

What are you talking about? We know the Rand/Rahvin fight WAS NOT face to face! We also know the Cyndane/Alivia fight WAS INDEED face to face. No need to speculate when we have the facts written in the books. I don't know why or why not Cyndane could or couldn't have done the same. But the point is that we KNOW FOR A FACT that she DID NOT do the same as Rahvin. End of story.

 

 

[General Cauthon]

What are you talking about? We know the Rand/Rahvin fight WAS NOT face to face! We also know the Cyndane/Alivia fight WAS INDEED face to face. No need to speculate when we have the facts written in the books. I don't know why or why not Cyndane could or couldn't have done the same. But the point is that we KNOW FOR A FACT that she DID NOT do the same as Rahvin. End of story.

 

Rand Travelled to the very room Rahvin sat in, after which Rahvin ran. Being in the same room as Rahvin doesn't count as face to face, but when Cyndane and Alivia was 100 paces apart in a forest is? Are you kidding?

 

And how do we know for a fact that Cyndane didn't retreat from a stronger opponent, just as Rahvin did?

 

We don't even know if Rahvin ran immediatly, the scene stops before the fight begins. He might have stood face to face with Rand for minutes before being forced to retreat. Stop using the term FACT about your speculations,

[Nightstrike]

Rand Travelled to the very room Rahvin sat in, after which Rahvin ran. Being in the same room as Rahvin doesn't count as face to face, but when Cyndane and Alivia was 100 paces apart in a forest is? Are you kidding?

 

And how do we know for a fact that Cyndane didn't retreat from a stronger opponent, just as Rahvin did?

 

We don't even know if Rahvin ran immediatly, the scene stops before the fight begins. He might have stood face to face with Rand for minutes before being forced to retreat. Stop using the term FACT about your speculations,

I still don't know what you're talking about. Rahvin fled immediately, while Alivia/Cyndane faced each other. What are you saying, could you please explain? We all know Cyndane fled in the end, but initially they were throwing everything they got against eachother. Rahvin fled from room to room and eventually into TAR. Are you saying anything happened any other way? I am away from home atm, and don't have the books at hand, but I seem to recall the events going down exactly like that - I guess I'll have to read those chapters again when I get back home to make sure.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mr Ares]

Because one that is much more than twice the strength can shield the other one, even if the other one is holding saidar.

Only if her weaves are not cut. As General Cauthon pointed out, the strength difference only matters if she can use it. I've pointed that out as well. It will still be true, no matter how many times you ignore it. Keep Alivia off balance so she can't bring all her strength to bear, and you can win.

 

We know they fought face to face for a while. If Alivia was 3 times Cyndane's strength, then Cyndane couldn't have run away after the fight was initiated.

Because you can't run away from strong opponents? Why not?

 

If Alivia had been 3 times Cyndane's strength, she could easily have spent half her strength on maintaining a protective shield around herself and the other half on attacking Cyndane. That would still, in all probability, have kept Cyndane from flight - ultimately resulting in a victory for Alivia.

But we know that that any attack Alivia tried would be cut by Cyndane, who can indirectly attack in ways that would unbalance her enough to make good her escape.

 

But the point is that we KNOW FOR A FACT that she DID NOT do the same as Rahvin.

You say that with such certainty. Were we given either fight in its entirety?

 

What are you saying, could you please explain?

It is entirely clear. We see the beginning of the Cyndane/Alivia fight, but that's it. We see Rand come face to face with Rahvin, then we cut away to another POV, then we cut back to see the fight already in progress. We do not see either fight in its entirety, therefore saying they are completely different is guesswork rather than fact.

[Swigaro]

I have got to agree with Mr. Ares on this one.  We do not have enough information on various channelers strengths to accurately asses the Strength vs. Skill debate.  Furthermore, IMO, people are greatly undervaluing the degree to which skill can tip the balance in a conflict.  Take this example, not from TWoT. 

 

Who is more likely to win a race? Mario Andretti, driving my 2007 Chevy Aveo, or me, driving a Lamborghini (more than twice as fast as powerful as my little car).  Even though I am taking part in this race, I would put my money on the 'weaker' master as opposed to the far less skilled 'stronger' competitor.

 

We know a few things about strength.

 

1.  Even the weakest Forsaken was among the strongest channelers of their age.

 

2.  Lanfear was the strongest woman, and her potential was decreased an indeterminate ammount when she became Cyndane.

 

3.  Moghedian mached Nynaeve on strength, back when they fought.

 

4.  Alivia is significantly stronger than Nynaeve, and Moghedian.

 

Even if Moghidian is the weakest female Forsaken, that would still put Alivia's strength up there with Grendal and Messana and Semirhage, unless you want to suggest that there is that much variance between the strongest channelers.  We can not assume, from the information given how strong Cyndane actually is (though, doesn't Grendal comment on Cyndane's strength in relation to her own? I can't recall specifically).  I find it hard to believe that Lanfear was so unbelievably powerful that even after she has been reduced, she is still that much more powerful than current age channelers.

 

I have always read this scene as an example of how skilled Cyndane was, not how powerful Alivia was.

 

[Nightstrike]

We know they fought face to face for a while. If Alivia was 3 times Cyndane's strength, then Cyndane couldn't have run away after the fight was initiated.

Because you can't run away from strong opponents? Why not?

First of all because she wouldn't have made it long enough to ever start running away. And also because, in the purely theoretical situation of that miracle actually happening,the very second she shifted her attention into running she would've been dust in the wind.

 

If Alivia had been 3 times Cyndane's strength, she could easily have spent half her strength on maintaining a protective shield around herself and the other half on attacking Cyndane. That would still, in all probability, have kept Cyndane from flight - ultimately resulting in a victory for Alivia.

But we know that that any attack Alivia tried would be cut by Cyndane, who can indirectly attack in ways that would unbalance her enough to make good her escape.

Yes, that's my point! Cyndane managed to cut Alivia's weaves. That speaks in favor of a lesser difference in strength. But if you wanna bet on higher than astronomical odds, then please go ahead. I speak in favor of reasonable odds.

 

But the point is that we KNOW FOR A FACT that she DID NOT do the same as Rahvin.

You say that with such certainty. Were we given either fight in its entirety?

We only need the beginning of each fight to determine what attitude each opponent had. But, if I remember correctly, we were given more than the beginning of each fight. Rahvin's reaction seemed to me as pure panic. He immediately

resorted to balefire and flight. Later he hid in Tar and we don't ever see him standing up against Rand the way Cyndane did. I'll reread those chapters when I get back home.

 

What are you saying, could you please explain?

It is entirely clear. We see the beginning of the Cyndane/Alivia fight, but that's it. We see Rand come face to face with Rahvin, then we cut away to another POV, then we cut back to see the fight already in progress. We do not see either fight in its entirety, therefore saying they are completely different is guesswork rather than fact.

I don't have the books at hand, so I can't give any quotes. But I say we know enough to form a judgment about the nature of each fight. We know Rahvin panicked and fled. Cyndane did not. That is not guesswork.

 

 

[Nightstrike]

Who is more likely to win a race? Mario Andretti, driving my 2007 Chevy Aveo, or me, driving a Lamborghini (more than twice as fast as powerful as my little car).  Even though I am taking part in this race, I would put my money on the 'weaker' master as opposed to the far less skilled 'stronger' competitor.

I actually don't believe that much in this kind of comparisons. But let me go against my belief for a little while, while I do a little attempt of my own. Lets say we have 2 men going into a boxing fight. One is a trained boxer and the other one has never trained boxing. The trained one is able to bench-press 90 kg and the other guy is able to bench-press 270 kg. Who wins? My money is on the un-trained fellow. Not that I believe in these kinds of comparisons, but there you go.

[sillyman]

I actually don't believe that much in this kind of comparisons. But let me go against my belief for a little while, while I do a little attempt of my own. Lets say we have 2 men going into a boxing fight. One is a trained boxer and the other one has never trained boxing. The trained one is able to bench-press 90 kg and the other guy is able to bench-press 270 kg. Who wins? My money is on the un-trained fellow. Not that I believe in these kinds of comparisons, but there you go.

 

You have got to be kidding, the untrained guy would get destroyed.  The 90 kilo guy would be so much quicker.  I dunno about you but iv fought a trained boxer before and while im not suggesting i can bench press 270 kilo's i got hammered, didnt even hit the guy.  Trained boxer have in there head 3 to 5 different combos they can use at any time ready in there head, depending on their skill.

 

Thats like putting Anthony Mundine against ur average body builder. Wouldnt even be a contest.

[Nightstrike]

You have got to be kidding, the untrained guy would get destroyed.  The 90 kilo guy would be so much quicker.

 

I used to train in the same gym as some power lifters. You'd be surprised how quick and agile some of those guys were (despite their huge sizes). One of them worked as a guard at some restaurant. He beat up two guys that came at him at once. And he was the bulkiest fellow of those in that gym.

 

Thats like putting Anthony Mundine against ur average body builder. Wouldnt even be a contest.

Average body builder? I don't think any "average body builder" could bench-press more than 135 kg. The guy I mentioned could bench-press 210-215 kg (his own weight was 125 kg). A boxer that could manage 90 kg might be weighing 60-65 kg. And a guy that could bench-press 270 kg might be weighing aroung 180 kg. And I agree, it wouldn't even be a contest. The little guy would be disqualified for fleeing whenever the big guy approaches.

 

 

[General Cauthon]

First of all because she wouldn't have made it long enough to ever start running away. And also because, in the purely theoretical situation of that miracle actually happening,the very second she shifted her attention into running she would've been dust in the wind.

 

It takes less then a second to make a Gateway and step through. If you consider it a miracle that Cyndane would be able to hold of Alivias attacks for a few seconds, I think you underestimates Cyndane

 

Yes, that's my point! Cyndane managed to cut Alivia's weaves. That speaks in favor of a lesser difference in strength. But if you wanna bet on higher than astronomical odds, then please go ahead. I speak in favor of reasonable odds.

 

A weave is just as easy/hard to cut, whether or not the channeler is weak or strong. It's the WEAVE that's being cut. Only if you try to shield someone the strenght in the Power becomes a factor. And we've seen Rand create a shield around himself that nothing but balefire could penetrate(not even air to breate!). How can you know Cyndane didn't something similar?

 

We only need the beginning of each fight to determine what attitude each opponent had. But, if I remember correctly, we were given more than the beginning of each fight. Rahvin's reaction seemed to me as pure panic. He immediately

resorted to balefire and flight. Later he hid in Tar and we don't ever see him standing up against Rand the way Cyndane did. I'll reread those chapters when I get back home.

 

It never says anywhere in the book that Rahvin panicked, it says that he was surprised(he didn't expect Rand to know how to Travel). From Cyndanes POV we see that she's surprised that her weave fell apart without Alivia doing anything AND that Alivias stronger then Lanfear was. It still takes her less then a second to correctly quess why, and adapt.

 

I don't have the books at hand, so I can't give any quotes. But I say we know enough to form a judgment about the nature of each fight. We know Rahvin panicked and fled. Cyndane did not. That is not guesswork.

 

Correction, we know that Rahvin ran(eventually), and you belive that he panicked.

But if he panicked, why didn't he Travel to Shayol Ghul, or another safe location? He probably realized that Rand had a angreal, and decided that he couldn't defeat him face to face, and chose to try guerilla tactics instead, which were sucessfull until Nynaeve saved the day. But when Rand chased Rahvin, Rahvin could have escaped at anytime. But he didn't. Because he knew that skill can defeat strenght.

[Thor]

Just want to point out, some people keep saying that Cyndanne was far more skilled than Alivia, even to go and suggest that Alivia is untrained as compared to Cyndanne.  We know that is not true since most Aes Sedai would consider Alivia to have by far the most knowledge of destructive weaves as anybody they knew.

 

If you were to say that the Aes Sedai's evaluation is untrustworthy due to their own lack of knowledge, then it would directly imply that their evaluation of channeler strength is also untrustworthy due to their own lack of knowledge.  Strong to them if nowhere near strong for the forsaken.

 

And to add a bit more to it, why did the female choedan kal melt and the male didn't?  We know that the male choedan kal must have had more power flowing through it since Rand is much stronger than Nynaeve, so why is it that it is not the male ter angreal that became overloaded and meltdown?  It's simply because Nynaeve was weak and the strain was far too much.  Alivia might be much stronger than Nynaeve, but being much stronger than a weakling does not make you strong.

[DemandredFO]

I wouldn't exactly say nyneave is weak(from a 2nd age perspective Nyneave is probably middling), to 3rd agers she is about the sixth or seventh strongest channeler, barring the Foresaken.

[Mr Ares]

We know they fought face to face for a while. If Alivia was 3 times Cyndane's strength, then Cyndane couldn't have run away after the fight was initiated.

Because you can't run away from strong opponents? Why not?

First of all because she wouldn't have made it long enough to ever start running away.

So you say, but where's the evidence? There isn't any.

And also because, in the purely theoretical situation of that miracle actually happening,the very second she shifted her attention into running she would've been dust in the wind.

Unless she did something to distract Alivia, and give her time to disengage. You fail to address that situation.

 

If Alivia had been 3 times Cyndane's strength, she could easily have spent half her strength on maintaining a protective shield around herself and the other half on attacking Cyndane. That would still, in all probability, have kept Cyndane from flight - ultimately resulting in a victory for Alivia.

But we know that that any attack Alivia tried would be cut by Cyndane, who can indirectly attack in ways that would unbalance her enough to make good her escape.

Yes, that's my point! Cyndane managed to cut Alivia's weaves. That speaks in favor of a lesser difference in strength. But if you wanna bet on higher than astronomical odds, then please go ahead. I speak in favor of reasonable odds.

You speak in favour of imaginary odds. So your point is that because Cyndane is able to cut weaves, there is less difference in strength? That only supports your point if you make further assumptions about the relationship between strength of weave and strength required to cut it. I don't recall any actual evidence supporting that it takes as much Power to cut a weave as is in the weave, and without that you don't have a point. We know Cyndane can cut Alivia's weaves. We saw her do it. But that doesn't support you.

 

But the point is that we KNOW FOR A FACT that she DID NOT do the same as Rahvin.

You say that with such certainty. Were we given either fight in its entirety?

We only need the beginning of each fight to determine what attitude each opponent had. But, if I remember correctly, we were given more than the beginning of each fight. Rahvin's reaction seemed to me as pure panic. He immediately resorted to balefire and flight. Later he hid in T'a'r and we don't ever see him standing up against Rand the way Cyndane did. I'll reread those chapters when I get back home.

Rand came through the Gateway, saw Rahvin, attacked, closed the Gateway behind him (maybe not in quite that order - he could see through and attack before stepping through, but that's not important), but we do not see Rahvin's reaction to this attack, whther he defended himself or ran. We cut away. When we cut back, the running battle has been in progress for a time.

 

What are you saying, could you please explain?

It is entirely clear. We see the beginning of the Cyndane/Alivia fight, but that's it. We see Rand come face to face with Rahvin, then we cut away to another POV, then we cut back to see the fight already in progress. We do not see either fight in its entirety, therefore saying they are completely different is guesswork rather than fact.

I don't have the books at hand, so I can't give any quotes. But I say we know enough to form a judgment about the nature of each fight. We know Rahvin panicked and fled. Cyndane did not. That is not guesswork.

We do not have the end of he Cyndane/Alivia fight, so we do not know if she fled after injuring Alivia or not. We know she didn't succeed in getting to Rand. We know she injured Alivia. We do not know at what point Rahvin decided to nullify Rand's strength advantage by running and not giving him a clear shot.

 

Lets say we have 2 men going into a boxing fight. One is a trained boxer and the other one has never trained boxing.

What if you made it a massive guy who knows how to throw a punch, and a smaller guy who is an MMA fighter? The big guy wins if he can land one solid blow. The smaller guy isn't going to make it easy for him to land it. Attack in a way that favours your skill set, and doesn't allow the other guy to make best use of his strength advantage and you can win. Ground and pound. Or take him down and put him in an arm bar. Or similar. Difficult? Yes. Doable? Certainly. Alivia was strong enough that she could win if she landed one solid blow, but if every time she tried Cyndane cut the flows, and counterattacked in a way to keep her off balance, not let her get that blow in? Then Cyndane might be able to win. As it was, she didn't. She injured her opponent, and escaped, but failed to reach her objective. Alivia didn't get a decisive victory, and that is due to Cyndane's skills enabled her to deal with Alivia's strength advantage. Likewise, Rahvin was able to use his skills to deal with Rand's strength advantage.

 

Just want to point out, some people keep saying that Cyndanne was far more skilled than Alivia

We know this to be true. That is, after all, how she was able to counteract Alivia's strength.

 

And to add a bit more to it, why did the female choedan kal melt and the male didn't?

Probably due to greater strain being put on saidar than saidin.

Alivia might be much stronger than Nynaeve, but being much stronger than a weakling does not make you strong.

Maybe so, but Nynaeve is not, by any stretch of the imagination, weak. She is, as far as we can tell, strong. Being stronger than someone who is strong does make you strong.

[Nightstrike]

You fail to address that situation.

I know you're one of those guys that question everything and buy nothing, but I feel I have already addressed enough.

 

 

 

Yes, that's my point! Cyndane managed to cut Alivia's weaves. That speaks in favor of a lesser difference in strength. But if you wanna bet on higher than astronomical odds, then please go ahead. I speak in favor of reasonable odds.

You speak in favour of imaginary odds. So your point is that because Cyndane is able to cut weaves, there is less difference in strength? That only supports your point if you make further assumptions about the relationship between strength of weave and strength required to cut it. I don't recall any actual evidence supporting that it takes as much Power to cut a weave as is in the weave, and without that you don't have a point. We know Cyndane can cut Alivia's weaves. We saw her do it. But that doesn't support you.

You're arguing for an absurd situation where strength matters none whatsoever. Only the skill to cut weaves matters. That is so absurd that I don't know what to answer. No need to form circles then, I would say. And yet they have done so (the cleansing for instance). One of my arguments is based on a circle of 2 (Careane&Vandene). And Rahvin should have defeated Rand in the throneroom. But instead he resorted to balefire, ran, hid and escaped into Tar (where the One Power can be countered with control over the dreamworld). Weren't some of the Forsaken planning to link and use Sammael as bait? If they were that much more knowledgeable and skilled (and close to his own strength, which hardly even matters according to you), then why would they link? They could be 3 to cut all his weaves and 1 to knock him unconscious. Linking would have been stupid, and the Forsaken would probably not have made it this far if they didn't have their wits about them.

 

 

 

We only need the beginning of each fight to determine what attitude each opponent had. But, if I remember correctly, we were given more than the beginning of each fight. Rahvin's reaction seemed to me as pure panic. He immediately resorted to balefire and flight. Later he hid in T'a'r and we don't ever see him standing up against Rand the way Cyndane did. I'll reread those chapters when I get back home.

Rand came through the Gateway, saw Rahvin, attacked, closed the Gateway behind him (maybe not in quite that order - he could see through and attack before stepping through, but that's not important), but we do not see Rahvin's reaction to this attack, whther he defended himself or ran. We cut away. When we cut back, the running battle has been in progress for a time.

OK, I'm back home again. I've looked up those chapters. We have Rand thinking:..."He had been clever in his attacks, clever in his escapes, but from the moment he fled the throneroom he had not faced Rand for more than the instant it took to strike and flee. Rahvin was strong, perhaps as strong as Rand and more knowledgeable, but Rand had the fat-little-man angreal in his pocket, and Rahvin had none." (TFoH, The Threads burn). And a little later Rand gets attacked (by a hidden Rahvin) with balefire. Rand actually thinks:..."So much for the Forsaken fearing to use balefire.". Rahvin is strong and knowledgeable, but he still does not dare face Rand the way Cyndane did with Alivia. And Rand did not get his arm burnt to the bone, but Alivia did. This, and the Moghedien/Nynaeve fight gives us a perspective.

 

 

 

Lets say we have 2 men going into a boxing fight. One is a trained boxer and the other one has never trained boxing.

What if you made it a massive guy who knows how to throw a punch, and a smaller guy who is an MMA fighter? The big guy wins if he can land one solid blow. The smaller guy isn't going to make it easy for him to land it. Attack in a way that favours your skill set, and doesn't allow the other guy to make best use of his strength advantage and you can win. Ground and pound. Or take him down and put him in an arm bar. Or similar. Difficult? Yes. Doable? Certainly. Alivia was strong enough that she could win if she landed one solid blow, but if every time she tried Cyndane cut the flows, and counterattacked in a way to keep her off balance, not let her get that blow in? Then Cyndane might be able to win. As it was, she didn't. She injured her opponent, and escaped, but failed to reach her objective. Alivia didn't get a decisive victory, and that is due to Cyndane's skills enabled her to deal with Alivia's strength advantage. Likewise, Rahvin was able to use his skills to deal with Rand's strength advantage.

That comparison would be flawed because human legs are stronger than human arms. The Cyndane/Alivia fight is fought with their OP muscles - and those muscles are the same strength whether you are more skilled or less skilled (no arms/legs difference). MMA fighters use their legs to kick with, but a boxer only uses the arms to punch with. A leg is about twice the strength of an arm.