The battle at Lord Algarin's Manor (KOD)

[oroboros]

mid-way through the KOD Rand, loial and co are attacked at Lord Algarin's manor by thousands of trollocks & fades.

 

This seems highly odd to me as we know that one of the forsaken, possibly sammael or one of the others pretending to be him sent this army into the ways.  Any of the forsaken must have known that simply sending trollocks & fades against Rand would be unlikely to kill him, especially as they would most likley have known that there were others who could channel with him (Logain, Nynaeve, Cadsuane, aliva etc)especially as whichever of the forsaken it was did not take part in the battle themseleves. 

 

This presents the question as to what was the purpose of this battle?

 

One posibility is that during this fight LLT manages to seize the OP for the very first time.  Could it be that this entire battle was setup by one of the forsaken to provide a situation in which rand might loose control to LLT? and this would then present the question: if so why? 

[Cockta]

Maybe RJ thought he needed a filler-in battle, so he thought up this one to make the book more interesting to read. I dunno.

[Thorum]

I always interpretted this battle as a decoy for an offensive

[Ndshacker]

It might be because they thought that it could kill him, I believe Rand said... If those other Ashaman hadn't been there...

[mb]

If the battle was set up by the forsaken, Rand loosing control to Lews Therin would not be the reason.  None of the Forsaken actually knew Lews Therin was in Rand's head; Semirhage is the only Forsaken that examines people's brains (of what I read so far), and it seems doubtful that she met Rand before Chapter 27 (the battle takes place in Chapter 19); that info I got from the Encyclopaedia site.

 

If any of the forsaken set it up, the most reasonable reason to me would be to prevent Rand from doing something.

 

[Luckers]

Ok, firstly we know for a fact it wasn't Sammael--RJ said he's toast, and there is an unsourced quote from RJ saying he isn't coming back--but even if that isn't true, we can deduce that it wasn't Sammael. For starters it apparently takes longer than that to be recycled, and if he was, then he would be in a different body, in which case why reveal himself as disguising himself as his old self in order to do this? No, it wasn't Sammael.

 

From there, I agree that it makes sense for none of the Forsaken to have ordered this attack--in addition to all the above, the Forsaken just had first hand experience of Rand & co's. use of Callandor and the Choedan Kal--and absolutely no reason to think Rand wouldn't employ them. Effectively it makes no sense for any of the Forsaken to have sent them--all it does is throw away a hundred thousand Trollocs, and return Rand's attention to the Shadow when all the Forsaken have been working at creating discord to keep the Light focussed on each other. It makes no sense.

 

Which is why I suggest it was Taim. Firstly, of course, there is the problem of the fact that we know whoever commanded this attack had to have been a full Chosen with the requisite Mark that commands obedience from the Shadowspawn. Now we know Shaidar Haren has the ability to give this mark, he gives a weaker version to Alviarin. We also know that the Dark One has realised that he cannot completely trust his Chosen--unlike in the Age of Legends when he would kill them and raise someone else, he doesn't have any candidates of similar skill--RJ has directly stated his contempt of Third Age channelers. This is proven in that he returns Cyndane to life, and allows Moghedian to go on living in spite of their respective betrayals.

 

So, he can't trust his Chosen, yet he clearly is looking for a way to balance the power, to give himself other options than just the Chosen--Shaidar Haren itself is an example of this, as is his giving the weaker mark to Alviarin, and setting her a mission outside of Mesaana's perview. Taim is a clear choice to continue creating seperate agents. He is as strong as any of the Chosen, he was apparently trained initially by Ishamael (proven re: his knowledge of the potential dangers of testing men who can channel) AND on top of that he has had wild success, bringing a hundred Dreadlords into the fold, setting himself up as the leader of one of the Lights organisations of channelers, and infiltrating the highest circles of Rand's followers....

 

He is, effectively, the closest thing the Dark One can find to an Age of Legender amongst the Third Agers, and given the previously stated need by the Dark One--no i have no problems with him having been raised Chosen without the other Chosen being aware.

 

That assumption is the big one. I agree there is no direct evidence, but if you bear with me and make it it does explain the attack on the manor in Tear.

 

Consider, first of all that three days prior to the attack Taim was desperate to learn where Rand was from Logain--Logain did not tell him, but even were Taim not smart enough to have placed someone amongst Logain's people we have the Aes Sedai, who directly stated their intention to play on the antagonism between Logain and Taim to cause anarchy in the Black Tower, many of whom knew just as well as Logain where Rand was. Three days, which is roughly the same amount of time it would take the Shadowspawn to travel the Ways to Shangtai, and from there to the manor.

 

Beyond which, it precisely fits Taim's MO. He favours blunt attacks of which he can keep himself disconnected from--consider the attack on the Sun Palace in PoD, it exactly mataches this methodology. Same thing with the Grey Man that Taim 'saved' Rand from in LoC. For that matter, so does the attack on Demira, and its almost certain he was behind that.

 

Yes, Taim seems the most likely candidate to me.

[oroboros]

I agree Taim does seem the most likely candiate for this attack and it would fit his prefered methods.  However one thing against this idea is that whoever led the trollocks into the ways appeared as Sammael, who Taim has never been said to encounter (unless this occured in the background e.g. at a meeting when/if he became a new dreadload etc)

 

One other thing that may be worth noting at this battle is that Davram Bashere is not present during, but turns up shortly afterwards.  This could lend support to the idea that he is a darkfriend - as he could have supplied the location of rand and didn't feel like being attacked himself.  However that is really an issue for another thread and personally I doubt he is a DF.

[Luckers]

I agree Taim does seem the most likely candiate for this attack and it would fit his prefered methods.  However one thing against this idea is that whoever led the trollocks into the ways appeared as Sammael, who Taim has never been said to encounter (unless this occured in the background e.g. at a meeting when/if he became a new dreadload etc)

 

Sorry, I should have added that--Taim displays the fist holding three lightning bolts design that Sammael used--now, Be'lal used it too, though Be'lal died before Taim became a player of any sort, so between the two it suggests to me that Taim did indeed have interaction with Sammael.

 

One other thing that may be worth noting at this battle is that Davram Bashere is not present during, but turns up shortly afterwards.  This could lend support to the idea that he is a darkfriend - as he could have supplied the location of rand and didn't feel like being attacked himself.  However that is really an issue for another thread and personally I doubt he is a DF.

 

Doesn't explain who ordered the Trollocs--and besides Bashere's been directly involved in plans that have hurt the shadow, things that had they been aware of it they could have easily avoided....

 

 

[oroboros]

Yeah that would make sense then.  It still leaves the purpose of the attack as a mystery though. 

 

Taim may not have taken part himself or involved the ashaman to avoid showing his/ the black towers involvement, as well as using the ways rather than travelling for the same reason.  But if he had really wanted rand dead I don't think he would have left it to trollocs.  At the sun palace attack several ashaman were involved including Dashiva (asan gar) and they failed to kill rand.  To my thinking taim would rank a single ashaman as better than almost any number of trollocs so he can't have believed this attack would succeed. 

 

As far as i can see if the attack was by Taim or any of the forsaken the purpose would have been:

 

1.)  To get lucky and kill rand (they only have to be lucky once)

2.)  As was suggested earlier to distract rand from something else

3.)  To break down the barrier between rand and LTT

4.)  As some form of test of rands abilities with the OP

5.)  The target wasn't rand but some-one with him, prehaps one of the saldeans who 

    died, although why I couldn't say   

 

A second possibility for the organiser behind the attack could have been Fain.  He used a very similar tactic at Emond's field.  Taking command of a large number of trollocs, moving them through the ways and remaining hidden during the actual attack.  He would have been able to loacte Rand via his link to him and would have had no other options available to further his chances as he cannot use the OP and may not have forseen the presence of other channelers with rand.  As to how he could have appeared as Sammael, i'm not sure although sammael died in SL so prehaps Fain could have gained some kind of link or knowledge of him from it.

[Sabio]

From there, I agree that it makes sense for none of the Forsaken to have ordered this attack--in addition to all the above, the Forsaken just had first hand experience of Rand & co's. use of Callandor and the Choedan Kal--and absolutely no reason to think Rand wouldn't employ them. Effectively it makes no sense for any of the Forsaken to have sent them--all it does is throw away a hundred thousand Trollocs, and return Rand's attention to the Shadow when all the Forsaken have been working at creating discord to keep the Light focussed on each other. It makes no sense.

 

Why would any Forsaken worry about throwing away lives of trollocs?  We have seen time and again they don't mind doing that.  Maybe it was nothing more then to get him to move, start to feel desperate and act and possibly make a mistake.  Most likely one of the BA reported to a forsaken didn't have that many guards and they struck. Just can't see Taim with the skill to pose as Sammael.

 

 

[pxnsolid]

A second possibility for the organizer behind the attack could have been Fain.  He used a very similar tactic at Emond's field.  Taking command of a large number of trollocs, moving them through the ways and remaining hidden during the actual attack.

 

Fain did not bring the trollocs through the ways against Emond's Field. Isam/Luc/Slayer whatever youd like to call him did.

 

from The Shadow Rising, Chapter 56 Golden Eyes page 941

 

"From the thick branch of a leafy oak on the edge of the Westwood, Ordeith stared at Emond's Field, a mile to the south. It was impossible. Scourge them. Flay them. Everything had been going according to plan. Even Isam had played into his hands. Why did the fool stop bringing Trollocs? He should have brought in enough to turn the Two Rivers black with them!"

 

In fact, Isam brought the Trollocs to hunt Fain, not for any other reason. The shear numbers brought in the end were to kill Perrin, but initially it was all to hunt Fain. Fain had nothing to do with the Trollocs at all.

 

  from The Shadow Rising, Chapter 42, A Missing Leaf, page 687

 

"It was only a few hundred to begin, Goldeneyes. Just enough to keep those fool Whitecloaks off balance and see that the renegade died" Slayer's voice became angry. "The Shadow consume me if that man does not have more luck then the White Tower." Abruptly he chuckled. "But you, Goldeneyes. Your presence was a surprise. There are those who want your head on a pike. Your precious Two Rivers will be harrowed from end to end, now, to root you out. What do you say to that, Goldeneyes?"

 

so far from the Trollocs being Fains design, they were in fact in pursuit of him, and only increased when Perrin arravied and changed to chasing him. It could be said that it was his intentions, but that is nothing but supposition.

[oroboros]

Yeah sorry my msitake, haven't been back to that book for a while.  So it seems that the Fain possibility is somewhat more unlikely

[ksbsnowowl]

Taim may not have taken part himself or involved the ashaman to avoid showing his/ the black towers involvement, as well as using the ways rather than travelling for the same reason.

They used the Ways because Shadowspawn cannot travel through a gateway without dying.

[pxnsolid]

They used the Ways because Shadowspawn cannot travel through a gateway without dying.

Nod. Gateways kill shadowspawn. Why? That isnt stated, at least not afaik, but its stated as so during the battle in KoD regarding the deathgates.

[ROB_88]

is it really all gateways though?

i got the impression that Rand just altered the gateway into the deathgate which kills them, but the normal does not, why would he else even need to turn it into a deathgate instead of a normal one?

[Tyrell]

The differences between a deathgate and a normal gateway are that:

 

a)Deathgates move, so they can scoop shadowspawn up.

b)Deathgates open and close, changing destinations randomly, so as not to drop too many trolloc corpses in one place I would imagine.

[Luckers]

Yeah that would make sense then.  It still leaves the purpose of the attack as a mystery though. 

 

Taim may not have taken part himself or involved the ashaman to avoid showing his/ the black towers involvement, as well as using the ways rather than travelling for the same reason.  But if he had really wanted rand dead I don't think he would have left it to trollocs.  At the sun palace attack several ashaman were involved including Dashiva (asan gar) and they failed to kill rand.  To my thinking taim would rank a single ashaman as better than almost any number of trollocs so he can't have believed this attack would succeed. 

 

The problem is that the attack on the Sun Palace was sanctioned by the Shadow, this attack was not. Had Asha'men been involved Taim might have been able to blur Rand's eyes, but the Shadow would have guessed almost immediately who was at fault--and even if Taim is now Chosen i dont see him openly disobeying direct commands from the Nae'blis.

 

The purpose of the attack was to kill Rand--and it exactly matches the way Taim works--blunt attacks on the off chance of success, yet with nothing being tied back to him.

 

A few side points.

 

as well as using the ways rather than travelling for the same reason.

 

Shadowspawn cannot Travel--it kills them. This was stated both by Rand and clarified by RJ in his blog.

 

At the sun palace attack several ashaman were involved including Dashiva (asan gar) and they failed to kill rand.

 

Dashiva (Osan'gar) wasn't actually involved in that attack directly--he joined in because Rand caught him talking to the actual attackers, in what RJ described as an instinctive reaction from being caught red handed.

 

To my thinking taim would rank a single ashaman as better than almost any number of trollocs so he can't have believed this attack would succeed. 

 

I don't see anything that supports that. Taim has very little personal knowledge of the actual effects of the One Power in large scale military incidents. Even as a False Dragon he fought with an army. At Dumai's Wells he saw six hundred Asha'men dispel 40,000 Shaido--that ratio stands against him thinking a few dozen could totally wipe out a hundred thousand shadowspawn.

 

1.)  To get lucky and kill rand (they only have to be lucky once)

2.)  As was suggested earlier to distract rand from something else

3.)  To break down the barrier between rand and LTT

4.)  As some form of test of rands abilities with the OP

5.)  The target wasn't rand but some-one with him, prehaps one of the saldeans who 

    died, although why I couldn't say   

 

A second possibility for the organiser behind the attack could have been Fain.  He used a very similar tactic at Emond's field.  Taking command of a large number of trollocs, moving them through the ways and remaining hidden during the actual attack.  He would have been able to loacte Rand via his link to him and would have had no other options available to further his chances as he cannot use the OP and may not have forseen the presence of other channelers with rand.  As to how he could have appeared as Sammael, i'm not sure although sammael died in SL so prehaps Fain could have gained some kind of link or knowledge of him from it.

 

Fain could not command a hundred thousand Trollocs--that takes a Chosen Mark, which only the Dark One can give. Fain can create illusions, but he doesn't have the mark.

 

Why would any Forsaken worry about throwing away lives of trollocs?  We have seen time and again they don't mind doing that.  Maybe it was nothing more then to get him to move, start to feel desperate and act and possibly make a mistake.   

 

They wouldn't worry about it, if it served a purpose. This served no purpose--by everything they knew, sending a hundred thousand trollocs against Rand simply lost them a hundred thousand Trollocs, and more specifically it would have re-raised his awareness of the threat from shadowspawn. The Forsaken have spent the last six months trying to turn the lights focus on each other, to spread discord amongst them--reminding them of the true enemy serves no purpose.

 

Most likely one of the BA reported to a forsaken didn't have that many guards and they struck.

 

That doesn't work--the Forsaken knew from experience that Rand has the Choedan Kal and Callandor, and no reason to think he wouldn't employ them. The lack of guards is not a basis for them feeling they might be successful in their attack.

 

Just can't see Taim with the skill to pose as Sammael.

 

I don't understand this--what skill did he display? Mask of Mirrors?

 

We don't even know he had to do that, all we know is the figure claimed to be Sammael, and had a Chosen Mark.

 

 

[lordofsoup]

Fain was touched by the DO, i doubt that the trollocs could tell the difference

[Luckers]

We know as a fact that they can't--in tSR Fain is forced to torture a Myrdraal to get it to obey him, if shadowspawn were mistaking his tainting for the Chosen Mark that would not be nessasary--the Chosen Mark compels obeidience.

[OsaroLJ]

this is a bit unrelated(although was alluded to by the OP :P) the battle mark s the first time LTT is allowed access to Saidin. Interestingly enough, I've been doing research on the literary figure "Fisher King" and there have been many similarities found betweem the mythical character and Rand. Specifically, one myth tells of an Older Fisher who can not catch a fish. Well, apparently, a young Fisher tries and pulls of the feat. What happens? The Older Fisher jumps in and wrists control of the fish. Sounds unrelated by I think RJ presented us a very critical clue to what might take place in Taimon Gaidon. Rand has done several things LTT could only dream of...at Taimon Gaidon, expect Rand to do something new and LTT to be in control of Saidin. May also explain why RJ decided to throw this fight @ Lord Algarin into KOD. Just my opinion ;D