What Have You Noticed on the Nth Read Through?

[RobertAlexWillis]

Q64- Just how 'organized' is the institution of Blademastery, if we can call it that? I believe you hinted before that there's more to Blademastery than beating a Blademaster and taking his sword. And, how many Blademasters do you imagine exist in Randland at the time of the books? Just how rare is it?

 

A - First off...rarity. Fewer than 100 men in the nations that are spoken of in the book. It is a semi-formal thing that is normally one is chosen to become a Blademaster by other Blademasters. There's no real organization. IF you want to become a Blademaster, you have to find other Blademasters who are willing to acknowledge you as an equal.

 

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=58

 

[CUBAREY]

Question: When Rand was in Rhuidean seeing through his ancestors' eyes, on the very last viewing in which he(as Charn) witnesses the drilling of the bore, Charn breaks into a run back toward the now burning Collam Daan with tears rolling down his face, and lamenting the fact that he was sworn to serve the Aes Sedai but was too late. Now I understand that he could be simply seeing this as a failure to have been on-time for such a momentous occasion, but he really takes this failure to heart, and I can't help wondering if that's because his presence might've had some effect more than just being there in-case they call upon him to do something? I might be fishing here, but alas, I had to ask.

 

He is crying because the Aes Sedai he serves seems to have just blown up. He is sworn to serve, his master has just accidentally killed herself, him crying seems quite reasonable without imputing a role in the drilling of bore that we have no other information for.

[arkinia]

Cadsuane was pursuing Rand in Far Madding.  She was far more dangerous to him there than she was anywhere else in the world; if she was planning to take control of him, that was the place to do it, where he couldn't channel, was cut off from all his power bases, and she had a hold on the head of government.  Verin knew enough about the society of Far Madding to know that Cadsuane could definitely take advantage of it.  She was willing to kill Cadsuane to keep Rand off her leash.

 

When Cadsuane confessed that she didn't really care what Rand did, so long as he made it to Tarmon Gai'don and she could help him to become human again (laugh and cry), then Verin knew that she wasn't trying to put a metaphorical leash on him, and Verin didn't need to kill her.  She didn't need truth serum, since Cadsuane is bound by the Oaths.  And actually, having Cads around would be an advantage, because no other Aes Sedai could take charge with Cads there.  Which freed Verin to leave, as she probably knew she would later have to.

 

Its just more support for the idea that Verin is actively trying to keep Rand free from Aes Sedai control.

 

Verin could have needed truth serum, the 3 oaths do nothing for interrogation. Truth serum does more than make you tell the truth, it numbs your thinking skills which are what Aes Sedai use to "bend the truth." Which means the serum would have helped her if she was going to ask Cadsuane a few questions that she knew Cadsuane to avoid answering, be it with refusing to answer or bending the truth, in both cases Cadsuane could have become suspicious of Verin, which Verin could have wanted to avoid, and she would not get the answers Verin was looking for.

 

Also I was referring to the fact that Verin changed her mind after Cadsuane said she was in a confiding mood, not directly after she said that she does not care what Rand does. So it does not mean that the vial being put back in her pocket means that Verin wanted to keep Cadsuane away from Rand, else the "I'm feeling in a confiding mood." would be a pointless statement for the story.

[adverge]

 

I've noticed something odd about the Shaido going so deep into the wetlands.

 

First, dry cold is a lot different than wet cold.  None of them seem to suffer at all from the wet cold of snow.  There's not a sick Shaido to be had anyplace.  Sevanna walks about with her shirt half open while wearing endless necklaces that would probably freeze to her skin given the wetness.  Also, they're all capable of moving through snow easily even though they've never experienced before.

 

Second, when the Shaido capture Faile and the girls they strip them down and make them walk through the snow naked for many many hours.  And after that they start carrying them.  And the girls just walk along without collapsing.  I don't think that anyone would have been capable of surviving the cold for that long.  You can die pretty quick from the cold.

 

 

 

[arkinia]

Jordan did go into pretty significant detail about Faile's fear of frostbite and did a pretty good job of acknowledging the dangers of the cold.

 

As for the Shaido, well, they are just monsters.

[Loreina]

She didn't need truth serum, since Cadsuane is bound by the Oaths.

Actually, I've always thought that Cadsuane renounced her oaths before 'retiring' from the Tower. That would account for her still being alive when everyone thought her already dead of old age. I think she knew about the Oath rod shortening their lives and removed them before she left the Tower.  She also knew about ter'angreal that could block saidar and saidin. It was the presence of those same ter'angreal that allowed her to treat the Atha'an Miere the way she did. She knew they couldn't touch her with the OP. 

 

Besides the cultural aspects, Rand's character was also strongly influenced by his mother's early death. That should also be considered when we look at the way he treats women.

 

 

 

 

[lordofsoup]

Cadsuane could be the 14 forsaken Bham bham bham

[Elgee]

Actually, I've always thought that Cadsuane renounced her oaths before 'retiring' from the Tower. That would account for her still being alive when everyone thought her already dead of old age. I think she knew about the Oath rod shortening their lives and removed them before she left the Tower.  She also knew about ter'angreal that could block saidar and saidin. It was the presence of those same ter'angreal that allowed her to treat the Atha'an Miere the way she did. She knew they couldn't touch her with the OP. 

 

The oaths not only shorten their lives, it also causes the ageless look. Removing the oaths would therefore also remove the ageless look (20 years would be more than enough time for that effect to wear off). Cadsuane still being alive after so long can probably be put down to her being so much stronger in the OP than any of her contemporaries.

 

What has been bugging me for a while now is Cadsuane's supposed age - just under 300 years, isn't it? My understanding of the matter (which could be wrong) is that AS can live to about 300 years - why is everyone then so surprised by the fact that Cadsuane is still alive? Was there perhaps a bit of a slip up on RJ's side, and Cadsuane is actually almost 400, not almost 300?

[Mr Ares]

What has been bugging me for a while now is Cadsuane's supposed age - just under 300 years, isn't it? My understanding of the matter (which could be wrong) is that AS can live to about 300 years - why is everyone then so surprised by the fact that Cadsuane is still alive? Was there perhaps a bit of a slip up on RJ's side, and Cadsuane is actually almost 400, not almost 300?

Just because people can live that long, doesn't mean it's common. She went into retirement a long time ago, before the Aiel War, and she was old then. Then she disappears for 20 years, then she crops up again, and people thinking that an old woman who hasn't been seen or heard from in decades might have passed away in the meantime is hardly unreasonable.

[Elgee]

Not common, certainly, but one would expect a reaction along the lines of "wow look at how well she's doing, at her age," as opposed to the one we're seeing which is more "WTF I THOUGHT YOU WERE DEAD!  :o".

 

Ugh ... I know there's a list somewhere of AS / Kin / WO ages, but I can't remember where now. Can anyone point me in the direction?

[Nautilus]

I think, that its the fact that she is 300 years old and it has not affected her personal appearence.  It puts her is about her mid years, with gives me the assuption that she could like to be 600-700 years old or more.

 

I also support the renouncing of the oath rod, for her "fountain of youth" so to speak.

[Elgee]

I think, that its the fact that she is 300 years old and it has not affected her personal appearence.  It puts her is about her mid years, with gives me the assuption that she could like to be 600-700 years old or more.

 

I also support the renouncing of the oath rod, for her "fountain of youth" so to speak.

 

??? She has iron gray hair, with the ageless Aes Sedai look (which all Aes Sedai, but ONLY Aes Sedai, achieve within a few years of being raised).

[Mr Ares]

Not common, certainly, but one would expect a reaction along the lines of "wow look at how well she's doing, at her age," as opposed to the one we're seeing which is more "WTF I THOUGHT YOU WERE DEAD!  :o".

Well, hardly anyone lives to that age and no-one's seen her in decades. Thinking she's dead is fairly reasonable. Some of my kids think I'm dead if they go a couple of days without hearing from me, but that's just wishful thinking.

 

As for AS/female channler ages, I think this is what you're looking for: http://www.wotmania.net/faqtopic.asp?ID=85

 

I also support the renouncing of the oath rod, for her "fountain of youth" so to speak.

Like Elgee said, she has agelessness, therefore she is bound.

[Majsju]

Aes Sedais age is directly connected to their strength. The stronger a channeler is, the longer she will live. Centuries before cadsuane came around, Aes Sedai living to be 300 would be seen as no nowhere near as extreme as it is now, where Cadsuane stodd quite a bit hgher than the rest of the Aes Sedai, until those pesky wondergirls came around.

[Loreina]

:) Perhaps, Elgee. This is all speculation after all. And I have to admit that I do not like the character of Cadsuane, so I am more apt to suspect her of nefarious things. She strikes me as being the embodiment of all the negative traits you might expect someone to develop when they have more power than anyone else. She is arrogant, petulant, and abusive. I wouldn't put it past her to have her own version of the Oath rod, a ter'angreal that slows or stops aging. Women of the Age of Legends could have been vain enough to make such things.

Or, she could have known about the other rod years ago and used it to further her life span. She could remove the Oaths, wait 20 years, put them back for a few years, take them off again. After all, if you're vainglorious enough to think that you must be at TG (to fulfill prophesy or whatever), you'd not let a little thing like the 3 oaths stop you.

She had to have had a very good reason for leaving the Tower. As powerful as she was, she wouldn't have walked away without having one. People like her do not walk away from power. I think that reason was to avoid suspicion about her lengthened lifespan. 

[Elgee]

Dear lord ... I think Mr Ares would be the best one to respond to that.

 

Thanks for the link, Mr Ares  :)

[Majsju]

People like her do not walk away from power.

 

And what kind of people would that be?

 

Cadsuane have demonstrated quite clearly how interested she is in power, by turning down offers to become Amyrlin.

[General Cauthon]

Aes Sedais age is directly connected to their strength. The stronger a channeler is, the longer she will live. Centuries before cadsuane came around, Aes Sedai living to be 300 would be seen as no nowhere near as extreme as it is now, where Cadsuane stodd quite a bit hgher than the rest of the Aes Sedai, until those pesky wondergirls came around.

 

I agree with Majsju, but that makes Sorilea's age hard to explain. She is the very weak in the Power, but around Cadsuane's age, and older than all the other Wise Ones(that we've seen atleast). Of course, 300 years isn't much when not bound by the Oaths, but that doesn't explain why no Wise One is older. The oldest of the Kin has passed 600, there should be both Wise Ones, and Windfinders that match that age. Can anyone explain this?

[Elgee]

It's not for sure that Sorilea is the oldest of the Wise Ones - she might just LOOK older, precisely because of her lack of strength in the OP.

[Majsju]

Well, the Wise Ones lack of really old channelers might be a result of them living in a very harsh environment. Channelers may have a potential lifespan for 600 years or so, but they still die just as easily as anyone else from diseases, wounds, dehydration etc.

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

The oldest of the Kin has passed 600, there should be both Wise Ones, and Windfinders that match that age

 

There have been older Wise Ones, but the Waste is a harsh place, and that will wear on even channelers after a few hundred years.  As for the Windfinders, we don't know how old the eldest among them are ... when a Windfinder reaches the top, as Windfinder to a Clan Mistress or the Mistress of Ships, she almost inevitable outlives that Mistress, and can be returned almost to the bottom of the Windfinder hierarchy.  So, there is no way to judge their age by hierarchy ... but yes, there should be very old Windfinders.  

[Loreina]

People like her do not walk away from power.

 

And what kind of people would that be?

 

Cadsuane have demonstrated quite clearly how interested she is in power, by turning down offers to become Amyrlin.

;)

The most powerful people are the ones behind the figure heads. They keep a low profile (or better yet, no profile), the better to conduct their business. The post of Amyrlin conveys the kind of power and prestige that most Aes Sedai would find hard to refuse, unless they had something to hide or something more important to do. She didn't turn down the post of Amyrlin because she didn't want the power and prestige it conveyed. I don't believe in St. Cadsuane. She turned it down because it would have been too dangerous and confining for her purposes. Siuane Sanche found that out the hard way.

That's my theory anyway. Of course, I could be wrong and she is indeed St. Cadsuane. But how boring that would be. I much prefer her in a more sinister role.  :)

[Eleint]

That's my theory anyway. Of course, I could be wrong and she is indeed St. Cadsuane. But how boring that would be. I much prefer her in a more sinister role.   :)

 

Well, she's definitely not a saint.  She definitely agreed with Merise that Narishma should obey her in all things, and so on, and didn't really like the idea of anyone being an equal of the Aes Sedai -- especially a man. :)

 

I don't think she's evil though.  She's more adaptable than many Aes Sedai.

[Majsju]

;)

The most powerful people are the ones behind the figure heads. They keep a low profile (or better yet, no profile), the better to conduct their business. The post of Amyrlin conveys the kind of power and prestige that most Aes Sedai would find hard to refuse, unless they had something to hide or something more important to do. She didn't turn down the post of Amyrlin because she didn't want the power and prestige it conveyed. I don't believe in St. Cadsuane. She turned it down because it would have been too dangerous and confining for her purposes. Siuane Sanche found that out the hard way.

That's my theory anyway. Of course, I could be wrong and she is indeed St. Cadsuane. But how boring that would be. I much prefer her in a more sinister role.   :)

 

Well, the opposite to the personality you want to give Cadsuane is not a "saint". Cadsuane is simply a person who does what she thinks has to be done for the greater good. And together with Verin, she does seem to be the one person in the books who actually does see and comprehend the big picture. Ok, toss in Moiraine with those two once she gets back from her vacation.

[Loreina]

:) I'm sorry. I didn't mean to imply that she's evil. I don't like her. But I am not saying she is a Darkfriend or anything like that. I'm just saying that she is ruthless, as very powerful people often are. She is quite capable of doing whatever must be done to serve her purpose, even something we would consider to be bad.

Yah, the Saint remark was an exaggeration. But when people start doing things for the greater good, I get worried. They might decide that I should die for the greater good.  ;D