what are they up to?

[Blade]

I was looking through the wheel of time books and I was looking at the borderlander royalty that came out to find Rand. At first, they simply state that they are coming to get rand to pay attention to the borders, but upon thinking it over, why would it take 4 rulers and a 200K person army and a significant number of aes sedai just to convince rand that he should focus on the borders. Any thoughts on what they may really be up to? (Don't know if this has been discussed already before)

[Guest Dreadlord]

I think Rand thinks its a trap, otherwise he would have gone to meet them. He knows they are trying to find him, and he definitely needs the Borderlands, so the only reason I can think of as to why Rand hasnt already got them is that he expects it to be an ambush-he knows there are more Aes Sedai with them than he can deal with

[trakand_01]

If I remember correctly, there were 13 Aes Sedai with the borderlanders, in total. Coincidence or not.

 

Considering what happened to Rand last time he found himself surrounded by 13 AS, if he suspects that they have more than 3 or 4 AS who are 'unknown quantities' (ie not oathsworn to him etc), I doubt he would venture out to see them.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Yep, thats more or less what I said  ;D

[Luckers]

Actually its directly stated that Rand avoids the borderlanders because he doesn't want to entangle himself in Elayne's affairs--which by the time he learnt of their location they were involved in. Lan in particular is angry at him for that decision.

 

Beyond that, Rand has more than enough channelers to provide himself with an escort capable of meeting thirteen Aes Sedai. Fear of channelers did not stop him seeking the Seanchan, after all.

 

Also, the Aes Sedai were not involved in the borderlanders initial plan, they joined later on. The borderlanders, to my mind, went south with such dramatic armies because they believed their point needed emphasis--and that Rand might ignore what wasn't said with force backing it.

 

That being said we do know that some things were occuring in the borderlands offscreen--aside from whats implied by Elaida's two scenes on the borderlander infighting there is RJ's comment that Hurin was involved fairly significant offscreen events in the borderlands.

 

 

 

 

[RAND AL THOR]

The borderlanders, to my mind, went south with such dramatic armies because they believed their point needed emphasis--and that Rand might ignore what wasn't said with force backing it.

 

 

To me, it seems somewhat ridiculous to transport such huge armies over vast distances only to impress. Surely the status of four kings and queens is enough for that? The expense of maintaining an army can be very high- and seems unnecessary in this scenario.

[Hybrid]

In addition, the Borderlanders have other things to be concerned with, such as the Blight.  Quiet or not, when your job is to hold the gate to protect the people in the city, you hold the gate and send a messenger.  I think that it may well be a Black Ajah trap, and there could be some skillful persuasion and/or compulsion employed to set this up.  I'm not suggesting that the Borderlanders are Darkfriends, but I certainly think they've been manipulated.

[trakand_01]

I did think it vaguely ridiculous that rulers with such important 'jobs' would desert their countries along with several thousand soldiers at such a time as this...

 

Leaving the door open while you go to answer the front and all that... by the time you turn around...

[DemandredFO]

I agree with Hybrid insofar as there is something more going on with the borderlanders but I believe Demandred is behind this trap.  As for what Hurin was doing I have no idea.

[Blade]

you know, I actually had a thought now as to what they may be up to. I believe at the time that Rand was engaged in a number of battles to solidify his control of the countries in the area. Maybe the borderlanders stripped their defenses so that they could go help him finish off the resistance so that he could finally come pay attention to the blight.

[triadruid]

Doesn't make sense. The Darkfriend/manipulation aspect sounds a lot better, although there's a meta-story reason as well: Gathering 200k battle-hardened soldiers for TG takes a while, unless someone's already done it and gotten them together to be Gated to the Last Battle...

[Hybrid]

I agree with Hybrid insofar as there is something more going on with the borderlanders but I believe Demandred is behind this trap.  As for what Hurin was doing I have no idea.

 

Hurin was probably off informing King Easar that Rand was the Dragon Reborn.  IMO, that was also the cause of fighting in the Borderlands.  Rand had proclaimed himself, and the Borderlanders were split over whether he was the real Dragon Reborn or a False Dragon.

 

you know, I actually had a thought now as to what they may be up to. I believe at the time that Rand was engaged in a number of battles to solidify his control of the countries in the area. Maybe the borderlanders stripped their defenses so that they could go help him finish off the resistance so that he could finally come pay attention to the blight.

The Borderlanders would have moved faster and engaged militarily if that were the case.  Rather, I think the Borderlanders have been manipulated, and the Shadow is massing for a huge onslaught to wipe out the Borderlands.  By splitting their strength, it makes it much easier to invade.

[Luckers]

To me, it seems somewhat ridiculous to transport such huge armies over vast distances only to impress. Surely the status of four kings and queens is enough for that? The expense of maintaining an army can be very high- and seems unnecessary in this scenario.

 

That depends really on the need they felt to impress it. Consider, by rumour--which was all they had to go on--Rand had done some pretty nasty things to the ruling elite. Killing Morgase, killing Colavaere, hanging the high nobility right, left and centre. Being Kings and Queens were hardly a reliable basis with which to deal with a man reported to have done all that.

 

To be certain they would be heard, they needed to be felt, and that meant an army. Which brings us back to the need they felt to impress upon Rand their position--which was basically the need of the world to survive.

 

Ultimately it makes a great deal of sense. Oh, were they aware of Rand's nature as we are it becomes silly, but they weren't.

 

In addition, the Borderlanders have other things to be concerned with, such as the Blight.  Quiet or not, when your job is to hold the gate to protect the people in the city, you hold the gate and send a messenger.

 

Consider it this way--yes, protecting the Blight is their responsibility, but thats like looking at a problem from its symptoms. They know Tarmon Gai'don is coming, and they know that they arn't strong enough to stand against it when it comes. Guarding a gate against a force that can overrun you makes no sense unless there are other forces that can deal with you being overrun when it happens.

 

They left enough forces in the Blight to hold the Blightborder short of the Trolloc Wars coming again--which if it does they could not have held anyway. They weighed the gain of standing where they were against the importance of the need to impress upon the man who would ultimately be responsible for fighting the fight with the need to look to the Blightborder--a man who by all rumours was ignoring that absolutely. Hell, even Lan thinks Rand's being blind when it came to that, and he knew Rand, and what he was doing for the Light, which the Borderlanders did not.

 

Ultimately i think their decision was the right one from their point of veiw. Rand was ignoring the Blight--to their minds the real threat--and they needed to make him realise its importance. He was also, by all accounts they'd heard, rather dismissive of rulers and their importance. As such to impress anything upon him they needed to make themselves felt, not simply heard. They did that--but still left forces to hold the Blight in check up to the beginning of Tarmon Gai'don itself.

 

I think that it may well be a Black Ajah trap, and there could be some skillful persuasion and/or compulsion employed to set this up.  I'm not suggesting that the Borderlanders are Darkfriends, but I certainly think they've been manipulated.

 

I really don't see how the Black Ajah could be involved. The rulers enacted this whilst away from any Aes Sedai. As for manipulation from the shadow--why would they manipulate the borderlanders in joining with Rand--united they make a much stronger force, and we all know the Blightborder isn't going to hold anyway. Would not the shadow do better to be able to destroy the borderland forces in the initial attacks, as opposed to fighting them in a unified force with Rand and the other major forces of the Light?

 

 

[Hybrid]

I think that it may well be a Black Ajah trap, and there could be some skillful persuasion and/or compulsion employed to set this up.  I'm not suggesting that the Borderlanders are Darkfriends, but I certainly think they've been manipulated.

 

I really don't see how the Black Ajah could be involved. The rulers enacted this whilst away from any Aes Sedai. As for manipulation from the shadow--why would they manipulate the borderlanders in joining with Rand--united they make a much stronger force, and we all know the Blightborder isn't going to hold anyway. Would not the shadow do better to be able to destroy the borderland forces in the initial attacks, as opposed to fighting them in a unified force with Rand and the other major forces of the Light?

 

The Borderlanders joining with Rand will make a stronger force.  On the other hand, they have effectively divided their strength, and the Blightborder is more unprotected than it was before.  If the Trollocs attack en masse, it is possible that all the Borderlands could be overrun before anyone could get word of what was going on.  Since the Trolloc Wars are likely coming again, the remaining armies might not be able to hold out long enough for Rand to send aid.  If the Borderland kings and queens wanted to come in a show of force, they could have brought only a small force of elite soldiers--something more to the size of Bashere's company, for example.  Rand would still take them seriously and the Blightborder would be better protected.

 

On the other hand, you raise a valid point.  If the Shadow has the numbers we fear, it wouldn't matter whether the Borderlanders stay home or not. 

[Luckers]

The Borderlanders joining with Rand will make a stronger force.  On the other hand, they have effectively divided their strength, and the Blightborder is more unprotected than it was before.  If the Trollocs attack en masse, it is possible that all the Borderlands could be overrun before anyone could get word of what was going on.  Since the Trolloc Wars are likely coming again, the remaining armies might not be able to hold out long enough for Rand to send aid

 

It wouldn't have anyway.

 

 

If the Borderland kings and queens wanted to come in a show of force, they could have brought only a small force of elite soldiers--something more to the size of Bashere's company, for example.  Rand would still take them seriously and the Blightborder would be better protected.

 

We know Rand would have taken them seriously whether they came with ten or ten thousand, but they didn't--which is sort of the point. Rand's armies and channelers could swallow 9,000 borderlanders without stopping to breath, but not even Rand's forces could shrug of 200,000. They needed him to listen, and they weren't sure he wouldn't simply kill them out of hand. Nine thousand would not have done it from their perspective. Instead the brough fifty thousand each, a force they knew he couldn't simply shrug off no matter who he is... and with their knowledge only i probably would have done the same.

[Kaznen]

I don't think their intentions are all that friendly.  Luckers pointed out that Rand has been riding roughshod over many nobles, and rulers (by this time I think they had heard of Illian).  And what are the AS doing about it?  Nothing as far as they can tell.

 

They decided to take the offensive before he comes knocking at their door.  Otherwise why would they have arranged their joining up in secret?  Why would they have made that blood oath?  Why would they be afraid of ending up on pikes in TV (they left before Elidia's "proclamation")?  Why is Tenbonia so hot to get her hands on Davram Bashere and why does he not want that to happen?  And what is the "a lot" that Rand has to answer for?

 

Elyane knew they were holding back when she met with them, and if they were wanting to make a strong show of force why were they waiting outside Andor for so long, while their supplies dwindled?

 

I think the borderlanders mean to capture Rand and put a stop to his conquests.

 

I also think that when Mat is going from Whitebridge to Camelyn they will see a very large army of Dragonsworn and attack.  And, unknown to the borderlanders, the Band being the most technologically advanced armie in the world will destroy them. 

 

[Charlz Guybon]

 

 

Consider it this way--yes, protecting the Blight is their responsibility, but thats like looking at a problem from its symptoms. They know Tarmon Gai'don is coming, and they know that they arn't strong enough to stand against it when it comes. Guarding a gate against a force that can overrun you makes no sense unless there are other forces that can deal with you being overrun when it happens.

 

They left enough forces in the Blight to hold the Blightborder short of the Trolloc Wars coming again--which if it does they could not have held anyway. They weighed the gain of standing where they were against the importance of the need to impress upon the man who would ultimately be responsible for fighting the fight with the need to look to the Blightborder--a man who by all rumours was ignoring that absolutely. Hell, even Lan thinks Rand's being blind when it came to that, and he knew Rand, and what he was doing for the Light, which the Borderlanders did not.

 

Ultimately i think their decision was the right one from their point of veiw. Rand was ignoring the Blight--to their minds the real threat--and they needed to make him realise its importance. He was also, by all accounts they'd heard, rather dismissive of rulers and their importance. As such to impress anything upon him they needed to make themselves felt, not simply heard. They did that--but still left forces to hold the Blight in check up to the beginning of Tarmon Gai'don itself.

 

I basically agree. I mean, Rand didn't even send ambassadors.  Surely he could have spared a Tairen or Carihienin flunky to go forth with an offer of alliance.

 

I really don't see how the Black Ajah could be involved. The rulers enacted this whilst away from any Aes Sedai. As for manipulation from the shadow--why would they manipulate the borderlanders in joining with Rand--united they make a much stronger force, and we all know the Blightborder isn't going to hold anyway. Would not the shadow do better to be able to destroy the borderland forces in the initial attacks, as opposed to fighting them in a unified force with Rand and the other major forces of the Light?

 

 

While I don't think that the Aes Seadai with them came up with the idea for the Borderlanders to go south, I do think it a good possibility that at least one of the groups of the Aes Sedai that joined the expidition is composed of Black sisters. It just makes sense that the Shadow would want a finger in that pie.

[Luckers]

While I don't think that the Aes Seadai with them came up with the idea for the Borderlanders to go south, I do think it a good possibility that at least one of the groups of the Aes Sedai that joined the expidition is composed of Black sisters. It just makes sense that the Shadow would want a finger in that pie.

 

I actually cleave to the idea that they all are--we know that someone freed Taim, and that to do that would probably have required channelers--its stated too many times how wary warders and tower guard are about attempts to free False Dragons. Yes it could have been a move from a black sister within the camp--but one or two sisters being able to take down the rest seems to be unlikely to me. So i'd say thirteen black sisters were sent from the Tower to forcibly free Taim.

 

After freeing him they learnt of the split in the Tower and did what Aes Sedai do best--found people with power through whom they might be able to affect events whilst they learnt more of what was occuring. They split into two groups to avoid being too noticeable and headed north towards the borderlands, the closest nations to their position.

 

Something bad is going to happen when Rand meets those borderlanders, they've been around too long with nothing happening for that not to be the case. To my mind it will be the second time women who can channel will hurt him, and probably the second time he will need Perrin. Bashere and Tenobia will probably not make it.

 

 

[Charlz Guybon]

While I don't think that the Aes Seadai with them came up with the idea for the Borderlanders to go south, I do think it a good possibility that at least one of the groups of the Aes Sedai that joined the expidition is composed of Black sisters. It just makes sense that the Shadow would want a finger in that pie.

 

I actually cleave to the idea that they all are--we know that someone freed Taim, and that to do that would probably have required channelers--its stated too many times how wary warders and tower guard are about attempts to free False Dragons. Yes it could have been a move from a black sister within the camp--but one or two sisters being able to take down the rest seems to be unlikely to me. So i'd say thirteen black sisters were sent from the Tower to forcibly free Taim.

 

After freeing him they learnt of the split in the Tower and did what Aes Sedai do best--found people with power through whom they might be able to affect events whilst they learnt more of what was occuring. They split into two groups to avoid being too noticeable and headed north towards the borderlands, the closest nations to their position.

 

Something bad is going to happen when Rand meets those borderlanders, they've been around too long with nothing happening for that not to be the case. To my mind it will be the second time women who can channel will hurt him, and probably the second time he will need Perrin. Bashere and Tenobia will probably not make it.

 

 

Ah, well I thought that to. I misunderstood what you were saying.

[dubz]

I think they came forth in order to fulfill this prophecy

 

"The north shall he tie to the east, and the west shall be bound to the south."

 

This was probably not their intention, im sure they didnt think one day, " tarmon gaiden is getting near, we should head east and tie ourselves to them or else who knows what will happen"  but I think this is what will happen

 

How?  you say...well im not quite sure... this may be in another thread but what do you think.

 

Maybe they will join with the aiel and rand will open a gateway and take them all to Tarwin's gap or Shayol Ghul as his elite forces.  I think there is no better way to tie two groups together than to put them in a life or death situation...i mean look at the aiel and cairhienien after the siege of cairhien, they were mortal enemies and after that battle they were celebrating together

 

 

[Luckers]

They weren't actually aware of that prophecy--it was spoken by the Finns directly to Rand.

[Snowy Dawn]

``Being Kings and Queens were hardly a reliable basis with which to deal with a man reported to have done all that.''

 

And presumably they know that Rand has eleven clans of the Aiel behind him. They might well feel the need for rather a lot of protection. They also know that Trollocs and Myrdraal have been seen south of the blight, as far south, at least, as Andor.

 

It seems likely that to me also that one or more of the thirteen Aes Sedai with the Borderland rulers is Black Ajah. Memara of the Red, whom the Tower sent to bring Tenobia and Bashere to heel, was chosen by Alviarin so it seems likely that Memara is also Black. On the other hand, Memara does not seem to be among the thirteen that the borderland rulers bring south with them. The others, the five who encounter Tenobia and army just before they leave Saldaea, and the seven that came to Shol Arbela just before Paitr Nachiman and army left there to go south may well include some of the sisters who set Mazrim Taim free as well as those sent to capture him in the first place---these two groups no doubt overlap, as has been argued in previous points in this thread. Paitr Nachiman's advisor Coladara, who is among the thirteen, may or may not be black---she would have been sent there by Siuan Sanche, I suspect, before Elaida's coup. I don't recall anything further in the text about the five and the seven---anyone? Did RJ answer a question about who the five and the seven are, and if so, what did he say?

[Luckers]

Memara of the Red, whom the Tower sent to bring Tenobia and Bashere to heel, was chosen by Alviarin so it seems likely that Memara is also Black. On the other hand, Memara does not seem to be among the thirteen that the borderland rulers bring south with them.

 

Mmm, she isn't, she pissed off Tenobia so much that Tenobia dropped her and left. Ethenielle even thinks that Elaida was a fool to send someone to try and bully Tenobia.

 

Nachiman's advisor Coladara, who is among the thirteen, may or may not be black---she would have been sent there by Siuan Sanche

 

I'd actually missed that Coladara was amongst the Aes Sedai with the borderlanders.

[Charlz Guybon]

Is Coldara the only name we know of for the sisters with the Borderlanders?

 

Naichman's sister Kiruna is in Cairhien as of Winter's Heart right? She must have heard about the Borderlanders in Andor by now. Do you think she'd go and investigate the situation?

[DemandredFO]

Probably not on her own, she's a good Wise Ones apprentice.  I actually just had this thought, Pitair(sp?) could die and Kiruna become queen and she is oathsworn to Rand and Rand would tell her to obey Perrin.  I said that's just a thought, no proof or anything, seems possible though.