How long did the Age of Legends exist?

[Great Lord of the Dark]

It had to be long enough to forget the concept of war. And that is a pretty long time. I think we're talking in the 15 to 20 thousand year range, maybe 10 at the least. The BotW is still fresh in the minds of everyone, and that was 3000 years ago

[Werthead]

In the Age of Legends the Portal Stones were studied, but not fully understood.  Further the fact that they have been damaged by nature indicates that in all likelyhood they were not made with the One Power, most things (possibly everything) we have seen made from the One Power require the One Power to destroy them.  And if they were not made with the One Power it is doubtful that they were meant to be used with it.  Imagine taking a clock built a thousand years ago and sticking an electric motor into it, the clock will work, but it was not designed to function that way.

 

The problem is that the other alternative is that the Portal Stones are mechanical devices used to access parallel universes, probably based on quantum principles. If they are such, even of a hyper-advanced nature from centuries in our future, then the same weathering which has eroded the stones would have certainly put any mechanical device out of operation millennia earlier, and the devices would be non-functional regardless of if the One Power was used or any other motivational force.

 

Another theory is that the Portal Stones themselves are not the ter'angreal (or equivalent) but are built around the device that is (maybe buried in the heart of the stones or in the base), and those are still intact even though the stones are weathered. Another possibility is that One Power-wrought devices are capable of being destroyed by entropy, but only on a timescale of tens of millennia. A lot of the devices in the series are much newer than that (Callandor and the Choedan Kal are only 3.5 millennia old, for example). If the Stones were built at the end of the First Age, endured all of the Second and three and a half millennia of the Third, then they would be many orders of magnitude older than any other artifact seen in the series (Mercedes-Benz hood ornaments and giraffe fossils notwithstanding).

[GrandpaG]

If they were made of stone, then maybe they were made during the Stone Age...by Fred Flintstone...he cut them out of Mr. Slate's quarry...they get their strength from the same source as Bam-Bam Rubble...it's MAGIC!

 

Sorry for the spam...just trying to lighten things up a little.  :)

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

magic? don't be silly, theres no such thing ;)

 

 

portal stones? personally, my theory(pretty far out and unconventional) is that the first age scientists discovered the OP as a form of energy and managed to utilize it.  with their knowledge of quantum physics(or w/e), created the portal stones to use the OP to open portals to other worlds/timelines etc.

 

hence how the portal stones could have existed in the first age AND why they are operated with the OP.

 

ps, i'm sure that someone in the first age just found some really reliable stone-like building material to build what would have been persumably very advanced machines.

[Hybrid]

Further the fact that they have been damaged by nature indicates that in all likelyhood they were not made with the One Power, most things (possibly everything) we have seen made from the One Power require the One Power to destroy them.

 

I am not entirely certain that's true.  I think that objects made with the One Power are generally more resilient than similar objects, but I don't think it is impossible to break them without the One Power.

[Roxinos]

Except it didn't. The Portal Stones existed before the end of the First Age and need the One Power to operate, ergo they needed the One Power to be built, ergo channellers appeared some time - decades at least - before the First Age actually ended.

 

You're using the Portal Stones as an example for why you don't think the First Age was ended by the discovery of channeling.

 

Despite that:

 

We don't know what Age the Portal Stones were created in.

We don't know how the Portal Stones were created.

We don't know why the Portal Stones were created.

We barely know how the Portal Stones work.

It has been said that the Portal Stones were ancient even in the Age of Legends.

 

Just because they need the Power to operate doesn't mean that is the only method that can be used to operate them. It also doesn't mean that the One Power was used to create them.

 

I know RJ said once that the appearance of channellers ended the First Age, but I don't think he meant the second the very first channeller appeared the First Age ended.

 

Then your issue is a semantic dispute, with no evidence to back up your belief. You think that when RJ said that the appearance of channeling marked the end of the First Age, it didn't mean that the First Age ended at that precise moment. And you can believe that, but if you want to use an example to support your claim, don't use one so stupid as the Portal Stones.

[Tyrell]

Why couldn't the portal stones have been made in the forth age? or the fifth? or the sixth? seventh even? Time goes around and around in circles, just because it's called the first age doesn't differentiate it from any of the others, it's just an arbitrary numbering system used to separate the different ages.

 

There seems to be an assumption here that their universe works like ours (First age is the big bang until channeling is discovered, seventh lasts until the big crush or... something). That doesn't necessarily have to be the case; the creator could've just plopped down his planet, solar system etc. said "to hell with evolution and all that crap" added life there and then, including humans, and set his wheel spinning - round and round it goes, where it stops only the dark one knows. In which case we just have an eternal cyclic series of events with the rise and fall of civilisations, technologies, magic etc. and in which case the portal stones could have been created in any age in which the one power existed, including ages before the second and after the third.

[algspkr]

Why couldn't the portal stones have been made in the forth age? or the fifth? or the sixth? seventh even? Time goes around and around in circles, just because it's called the first age doesn't differentiate it from any of the others, it's just an arbitrary numbering system used to separate the different ages.

 

There seems to be an assumption here that their universe works like ours (First age is the big bang until channeling is discovered, seventh lasts until the big crush or... something). That doesn't necessarily have to be the case; the creator could've just plopped down his planet, solar system etc. said "to hell with evolution and all that crap" added life there and then, including humans, and set his wheel spinning - round and round it goes, where it stops only the dark one knows. In which case we just have an eternal cyclic series of events with the rise and fall of civilisations, technologies, magic etc. and in which case the portal stones could have been created in any age in which the one power existed, including ages before the second and after the third.

There are several hints in the seiries that we are living in the first age.  The Mercadies hood ornimant, the stories of Lenn going to the moon in an eagle made of fire, Mosk and Merk fighting with spears of fire that reached around the world.  As we are living in the first age and the portal stones appeared before the second then it may be safely assumed that the portal stones will be built sometime between now and the birth of the first channellers.

[Roxinos]

There seems to be an assumption here that their universe works like ours (First age is the big bang until channeling is discovered, seventh lasts until the big crush or... something)

 

Actually, I don't think the beginning and end of our universe has ever been factored into the time line. Most often the concept of the seven Ages is that sometime between the Third and First Ages the ability to channel is lost, and then it is rediscovered marking the end of the First Age. Most often, we're thought of as being the First, though sometimes we're thought of as the Seventh.

 

Why couldn't the portal stones have been made in the forth age? or the fifth? or the sixth? seventh even?

 

That's actually exactly what I said.

 

just because it's called the first age doesn't differentiate it from any of the others, it's just an arbitrary numbering system used to separate the different ages.

 

Not true, actually. As we've said, it is a numbering system used to describe events in a certain time line while still preserving the cyclical nature. The numbers themselves, however, are more arbitrary. But the books acknowledge that fact ("...called the Third Age by some..."), and it is kind of pointless to go beyond that because the numbers were applied for a reason, and to remove them calling them arbitrary misses the point of the numbering in the first place.

 

and in which case the portal stones could have been created in any age in which the one power existed, including ages before the second and after the third.

 

You're assuming that the One Power was used in the creation of the Portal Stones, and I do not think this is necessarily the case. We have no evidence to suggest that the Power created the Stones.

 

There seems to be an assumption here that their universe works like ours (First age is the big bang until channeling is discovered, seventh lasts until the big crush or... something).

 

Actually, more often than not, a Steady State theory of the universe is more appropriate for the cyclical nature of time. Though, a Big Bang/Big Crunch theory could also be applied, I don't think anyone actually factors those two events into the Ages.

 

There are several hints in the seiries that we are living in the first age.  The Mercadies hood ornimant, the stories of Lenn going to the moon in an eagle made of fire, Mosk and Merk fighting with spears of fire that reached around the world.  As we are living in the first age and the portal stones appeared before the second then it may be safely assumed that the portal stones will be built sometime between now and the birth of the first channellers.

 

Nope. There are plenty of people who think that we're the First Age. But what is to say what marked the beginning of the First Age? It could very well be that the First Age was marked with the end of the second World War, or with the end of the Cold War (the fall of the Berlin Wall). There is no line that has been drawn to mark the beginning of the First Age, so it cannot be safely assumed that the Portal Stones were created in the First Age.

 

It is also not fact that we are the First Age, and it is more likely that we are the Seventh or Sixth Ages. But there has been no mark to indicate the beginning of the First Age so it is more difficult. I say that we could be the Seventh or Sixth Ages because there was no cataclysmic event between the First and Second Ages, so it is safe to assume that no information was lost between those two events. Since war was a new concept to the people of the Second Age, and war is no strange bedfellow to us in our Age, one could assume that the First Age was something different entirely.

 

Which could very well help you in your explanation of the Portal Stones being created in the First Age.

 

But all of that definitely does not change that the First Age was marked by the advent of channeling, and the Portal Stones were thought of as ancient in the Second Age, and they had no clue as to who created them, or for what use they were initially. See my previous assertions that no cataclysmic event between the First and the Second Ages meant no loss of significant knowledge, and you come to the conclusion that the Portal Stones were not created in the First Age.

[GrandpaG]

 

...in which case the portal stones could have been created in any age in which the one power existed, including ages before the second and after the third.

 

 

Could have been the third age (older revolution).

[a pale tanned lover]

I've never thought of this theory before but like it, sort of like portal stones made in fourth age, DO wins in the 5th age, Creator imprisons the DO in the 6th and starts again, hence starts the first age including portal stones

 

 

 

[ksbsnowowl]

I could be completely off my rocker in regards to this, but didn't RJ say at one point that our own age ends in a large and cateclysmic war?  So far as I know, I think this is the only real thing he's said about our own age, at least as far as Age demarcation is concerned.

 

I recall then seeing theories from people supposing that we are the First Age stating that a large war ensued after the discovery of channeling, and that then resulted in the long and lasting peace of the Age of Legends proper.  I'm not arguing that this is correct; it's just a correllary to my rememberance of RJ saying our own age ends with a massive war.

[Roxinos]

I think if the DO wins, then he's won for all eternity. I think that is a caveat to the rule.

[a pale tanned lover]

I think if the DO wins, then he's won for all eternity. I think that is a caveat to the rule.

 

Do you have proof of that at all? im only asking because it was the Creator who imprisoned the DO, do we have any proof that the Creator made the DO at all?

[Roxinos]

We have no proof that the Creator exists at all, actually. Except for, perhaps, a single line at the end of The Eye of the World which may or may not be the Creator talking to Rand.

[GrandpaG]

Ages come and go.  Who wins the Fisher game (Creator or Dark One) is only relevent for THAT age.  When the next Age comes, both players have the opportunity to win.  If the Dark One never one, it wouldn't be much of a game.  Kind of like if nobody ever scored a goal against the United soccer/football team...why bother playing.  I believe Ishy was telling the truth about the Dragon bowing to the Dark One in some of the previous turnings of the Wheel.  The only way the Dark One could be the final victor is if he were the main dude when the Wheel stopped turning.  Otherwise, come the next Age the game would be reset.  That is what I understood to be his reason for wanting the Eye of the World...for some reason, he felt he needed it to take control and then stop the Wheel.  Since Saidin and Sadair drive the Wheel, he must have had some way in mind of eliminating them for good.  No.  I don't have one single bit of proof to show that any of this is true.  Just my twisted way of interpreting what I've read.  Kinda like everyone who reads the Bible understands it differently.

[Roxinos]

I'm actually of the mind that in this turning of the Wheel, the Dark One will be killed, not just imprisoned.

 

But I'm crazy.

[benr]

As a first random thought about the killing of the DO, that may have the same effect as breaking the wheel.  Time will become linear without an equal opposite to the Creator and the wheel.

[Luckers]

I could be completely off my rocker in regards to this, but didn't RJ say at one point that our own age ends in a large and cateclysmic war?  So far as I know, I think this is the only real thing he's said about our own age, at least as far as Age demarcation is concerned.

 

No, he said the first age ends with the discovering of channeling--but there is widespread speculation on a war or some other cataclysmic event since there would be a need for modern cities to have been destroyed.

 

And it's probably a war given the existence of an entire culture in an age were war is unknown who are dedicated to peace in battle--that suggests some fairly nasty battles occured in the formation of the age of legender culture.

[Roxinos]

Which is why I say that we're sometime before the First Age.

[Ndshacker]

well, there are seven ages and we know about only three, so far as I an tell, the first age, the second age, the third age,

[Roxinos]

We really know nothing about the First Age except that it ended with the advent of channeling. We know next to nothing about the events of the Second Age except near the end, and what we do know besides events is mainly politics and some minor bits about specific people (namely the Chosen and Lews Therin). We know the most about the Third Age, obviously.

[Luckers]

Which is why I say that we're sometime before the First Age.

 

Then why are there no stories from that Age? The only things that predate the second age, yet come ahead of our own seem to be the Portal Stones and the Horn, all of the stories from the age before the Age of Legends related to us... of Glenn (Lenn) and the opollo missions (eagle made of fire). Of Mother Teresa and India (Materese mother of the wonderous Ind). Of Elizabeth (Elsbet Queen of All) and America and Moscow and the cold war (Merc and Mosk and their lances of fire that stretched around the world).

 

It seems strange to me that the our age is better remembered than the one that followed it.

 

To me, the simplest explenation is that we are indeed the first age, that something cataclysmic occurred following the discovery of channeling (a war would be my guess, given the Aiel, and the oath of service and the First Covenant and so forth). As a result of this war and the devestation people were forced to band together to survive, thus resulting in the singular cultural base of the Age of Legends, and their method of rewarding effort with social prestige. It would be during this time, still preceeding the Age of Legends that the Portal Stones were made, possibly as an attempt to flee the carnage and destruction. Probably during this time the Ogier came, to help revitalize the earth.

 

We know that there is a transitionary period between Ages that belong to neither, so this provides for them coming from an era prior to the Age of Legends, and the harshness provides for the people that made them dying, thus meaning the Age of Legenders understanding would have been imperfect. The Horn itself was probably made during the war.

[Vassili]

Woah! That was a long thread to read.. Now I want to add my piss to the pot. (hey, i created a saying!)

 

Personally, after hearing a few theories out there, it is my opinion that the discovery (or introduction) of channeling signaled the beginning of the transitory period between our age and the 2nd Age. Originally, there were very few channelers, and people tolerated them. They may have even become celebreties. Over a length of time in excess of 100 years, the population of channelers grew untill the non channeling population felt threatened. Unlike in the ages we read about in WoT, non chanallers were heavily armed with weapons of mass destruction, and initially superior to channalers. The initial good will began to fall apart, and the situation became tense. Think of government control programs meant to identify and isolate channelers. Maybe even genocide. At this point Tamyrlin, one of the first, maybe the First channeler, unified the channelers into a cohesive force. Some non channelers see the way things are going, and join forces with him. We may never know who struck the first blow, but the immediate conclusion would be obvious. In the face of the OP, superpowers like America would turn to the one thing we all know grants us a god-like power: the nuclear bomb. Most of the world as we know it would be gone inside a week or less. The destruction could have been so extreme as to surpass the Breaking, and may explain why so little info remains about the first age. IMO, this is more likely than a 20k long AoL.

 

A lot of things happen next. The above is far more certain than any theroies as to the "middle" of the transition that I can provide, but I will try latter on ;)

 

Around 500yrs (maybe) after the first person touches the OP in our age, the turmoil is settling down and the AoL is about to begin. A lot of time has gone by, and a good part of it was spent in nuclear winter. Channalers may have been the only reason humanity survived, as only the OP could create shelters from radiation big enough to house generations of people. Because of this, non channaler/channeler relations have improved considerably. The general feel of the time is that humanity is responsible for what happened, regardless of channeling. The survivors seek to create a new Utopian society where they learn from their mistakes. However, channelers and those who aided them are heald accountable for their role in the War. After all, without channelers there would have been no war. A lot of info has been lost, but non channelers still know they predate channalers. To make amends, the channalers agree only to use their power for good and become the Servents of All. Those who helped them Swear to Peace in Battle for all eternity. The Aes Sedain and Jenn Aiel are born, as well as the pacifist mind set of the AoL.

 

 

While I believe that above answers many questions while strictly holding to all we know from the series and our personal insight as members of the First Age, it doesn't answer everything. How was channeling discovered? Or more accurately, what changing circumstance allowed for channeling to be discovered? Where did the Ogier and Portal Stones come from? And where were the Creator and DO in all of this?

 

1.) Channelers may never have gone extinct after Rand's age, rather they all just went to another parallel world to hang out with the Ogier for an age or two. At some point they decided, "ah, coffee breaks over" and created the Portal Stones to take them back into our world. In this case, the arrival of the Portal Stones, not just channeling, is what began it all. Meanwhile the Source has always been available to us in the First Age, there has just been no one capable of using it(onlt the humans who flee this world with the Ogier have the required genes. Any who stayed behind are killed off at some point). This explains where the Portal Stones came from and how they can predate the AoL without us seeing them right now (YET  :o).

 

2.) The Source is going to be shieled from human use for a time, at least one age long. How? Maybe the DO did it, or the Creator, or maybe as people here have suggested, Rand is gonna screw up major while resealing the DO and it is something he did. Whatever the how, the shield falls apart at the end of the First Age and suddenly people start sparking again. After the main War is over, channelers use the OP to reach out to other worlds and find help for the nuclear radiation. They create the Portal Stones and find the Ogier who help somehow.

 

 

On an entirely separate note, how can you harmonize a cyclical WoT with the linear time we are familiar with? Maybe the 7th Age was so long ago we can't remember it. However, I think billions of years of fossil and cosmological evidence say no, unless the 7th Age was before the Big Bang. I doubt the First Age would be 12 billion years if the 3rd is only 3k (though who knows?) The only idea I think works is that our 1st Age is THE First Age. The Creator is actively creating the WoT as we speak.

 

 

Don't you love trying to harmonize fiction with reality?

 

Feel free to shoot holes

[Roxinos]

On an entirely separate note, how can you harmonize a cyclical WoT with the linear time we are familiar with? Maybe the 7th Age was so long ago we can't remember it. However, I think billions of years of fossil and cosmological evidence say no, unless the 7th Age was before the Big Bang. I doubt the First Age would be 12 billion years if the 3rd is only 3k (though who knows?) The only idea I think works is that our 1st Age is THE First Age. The Creator is actively creating the WoT as we speak.

 

As I mentioned before, I don't believe the Big Bang/Big Crunch cycle is fitted into the cyclical nature of the Wheel. I believe it is more of a Steady State universe, with events being repeated as the Wheel needs to provide for the balance. Instead of the actual world being recycled, simply events and souls are recycled.

 

1.) Channelers may never have gone extinct after Rand's age, rather they all just went to another parallel world to hang out with the Ogier for an age or two. At some point they decided, "ah, coffee breaks over" and created the Portal Stones to take them back into our world. In this case, the arrival of the Portal Stones, not just channeling, is what began it all. Meanwhile the Source has always been available to us in the First Age, there has just been no one capable of using it(onlt the humans who flee this world with the Ogier have the required genes. Any who stayed behind are killed off at some point). This explains where the Portal Stones came from and how they can predate the AoL without us seeing them right now (YET  Shocked).

 

Is there something in the books that I'm missing which necessitates the Portal Stones having been a creation through the One Power?