Mat Most Gallant?

[trakand_01]

So I was reading the 'Oh Snap!' thread, and a lot of people were saying Mat provided many of their favourite moments, and so I got to thinking about this. There are a few threads on Mat but I think they have gotten a bit too convoluted for my purposes.

 

So, there are 6 'main men' in our story;

 

Rand

Mat

Perrin

Galad

Gawyn

Lan

 

(from my pov anyway)

 

and each is involved with a woman/women  ::)

 

But when they fight it is for different reasons.

 

Rand fights because he has to, to keep himself safe. He is however aware that he needs to be alive at TG HOWEVER he is also aware from the prophecies taht he WILL be alive when TG arrives, so perhaps he is a little ... 'casual' about his own safety at times.

 

Perrin fights to keep Faile safe. I honestly believe that if he could, he would disappear into the forests with Faile and never come out. Shame she's a bit more gobby than he is.

 

Galad fights for what's right, regardless of the situation it may put him in. I also believe he would fight for Nynaeve's safety, perhaps even over that of Elayne.

 

Gawyn also fights to his own agenda, on the pretense of fighting for Elaida. I think he would breakaway if he thought the 'right' way was not to follow Elaida. What he'll do when he realises Egwene is leading the rebels I dont know.

 

Lan... Lan is interesting. He fights because he is compelled to do so, to protect his AS, however the AS he is following is NOT his AS... so he fights to protect her because he wants to, rather than because he HAS to... what he would do if Myrelle and Nynaeve were both in danger at opposite ends of the room, I've no idea.

 

But Mat... Mat (pre-Tuon) didnt really value his own life that much. Similarly to Perrin pre-Faile, he didnt want to come to any hurt, certainly but he knew that RAND was the one the world needed, and if anything happened to him (Mat), all was not lost. But he still fights. True he knows the odds are always in his favour but take, for example, the instance when he was attempting to escape from Rand's lure. The battle with the Shaido. His INTENTION was to slip away whilst everyone else was fighting, but lo and behold, he SOMEHOW ends up leading half Rand's army and killing Couladin single-handedly... Ta'veren you say and you're likely right, but he doesnt HAVE to fight when he does.

 

I think Mat could have escaped from Rand / duty / responsibility several times but he doesnt. Indeed when he found Olver, his instincts were to send him on his way but he ended up taking him under his wing.

 

Siuan once said he reminded her of her uncle, who died pulling children out of a burning building, whilever a child remained inside, he kept going back in.

 

Compassion, duty and an inability to avoid taking on responsibility, whilst appearing outwardly to be the most irresponsible lout on the planet, is a skill of Mats.

 

Or am i just a little too hooked on Mat... do you think the others are equally as gallant?

 

My point (because it has occurred to me that it may have been lost in my ramblings!!) are that the others fight because circumstance insists they do, whereas sometimes, Mat fights because it is not within the fibre of his being to walk away and leave someone else to it...

[Hybrid]

You forgot someone: Moridin.  :o

 

In regards to Mat, I agree that he is one of the most gallant of the main men.  He isn't like Galad, who believes in doing what's right no matter what.  Instead, he is a reluctant but very effective hero.  He doesn't really want to fight or put himself in danger, but he also realizes the responsibility forced on him by his memories.

[cheyjade]

Mat is pretty damn awesome.

 

Rand is halfway insane, and will let others die in order to avoid killing even one woman. His entire attitude towards women annoys me.

Perrin starts a war and kills thousands of people to save one woman. And two queens, but that's just incidental.

Galad starts a battle and a riot in order to get two women, one his sister, to a riverboat so they don't get arrested.

Gawyn is a narrow minded snob who facilitated the battle inside the Tower and contributed to the political abduction and abuse of the man destined to save the world. He does let Suian go though.

Lan, while not unkind to women, is hard and scary. I think out of the list, he's the least of a jerk. He does save Nynaeve's life in the river.

Mat travels halfway across the known world to save the lives of three women. He rides into a battle between two armies with a handful of friends to help save one woman. He adopts a street urchin after saving the kid's life, provides for him, and becomes a father to the boy when all he really wants to do is dice, drink, and dandle serving women on his knee. He leads a complicated scheme in order to save two women from the collar, risking his life to do so. And in the next book, he'll try to infiltrate the land of the 'Finns to save another woman.

 

I can't think of one bad thing Mat's done that's on par with all the chauvinistic stuff the others have done.

 

Yea, I think Mat's the most gallant, followed by Lan.

[Roxinos]

HOWEVER he is also aware from the prophecies taht he WILL be alive when TG arrives, so perhaps he is a little ... 'casual' about his own safety at times.

 

As far as I'm aware, no one in the series treats the Prophecies the way we treat them. The Prophecies do not guarantee his success. They do not guarantee his victory.

 

Think of the Prophecies as more of a guideline than a law for the future. Rand must accomplish certain tasks before he can fight the Dark One, and he must accomplish them to have a chance at winning.

 

Perrin fights to keep Faile safe.

 

That's one of his motivations, but not his central one. He still has a sense of duty towards Rand, just as long as that duty doesn't interfere with Faile's safety. He knows he is a key part in everything that's going on. He knows that he is ta'veren. He fights because he must, just as Rand fights because he must.

 

Lan... Lan is interesting. He fights because he is compelled to do so, to protect his AS, however the AS he is following is NOT his AS... so he fights to protect her because he wants to, rather than because he HAS to... what he would do if Myrelle and Nynaeve were both in danger at opposite ends of the room, I've no idea.

 

When he was with Moiraine, he fought for the same reasons Rand fought. He must. No matter who he is bonded to, he is an honor-bound Malkieri, and he cannot just abandon his charge. He will fight to defend them. Since losing Moiraine, he's also been struggling with his desire to just die. He knows that only action will help, so he fights to stave off the suicidal tendencies.

 

But Mat... Mat (pre-Tuon) didnt really value his own life that much.

 

Says who? I'd say out of everyone on the list, he valued his own life the most. He was always thinking about how to get away from the battles. How to avoid fighting. But duty bound him to his actions. Mat certainly tried to convince himself many times that Rand didn't need him. That was seen just after Rand took the Stone and Mat was trying to leave, but something kept him there. That's the ta'veren pull. He acknowledges his own importance at the very least subconsciously. You say he doesn't have to fight, and that's all well and true. But neither does Rand. Neither does Lan. Neither does Perrin. They all have the same motivations, just to different degrees. Mat knows that he must.

 

I think Mat could have escaped from Rand / duty / responsibility several times but he doesnt.

 

He really couldn't have. He tried on many occasions as I mentioned above in the Stone. He just couldn't bring himself to leave Rand's side. The ta'veren pull was too strong. I believe it wasn't until Mat's life was put in direct danger from being around Rand that he decided to leave. But it's been a long time since I read the series.

 

You say that story Siuan said of Mat, and I believe it's true of all of the people you mentioned. Rand, Mat, Perrin, Galad, Gawyn, and Lan would ALL continue to rush into a burning building so long as there was a child in there to save. They would do so because at that moment, they must. It is the most important thing in the world to them at that point in time, and nothing else matters because it is the right thing to do.

[stapes2007]

 

Perrin fights to keep Faile safe.

 

That's one of his motivations, but not his central one. He still has a sense of duty towards Rand, just as long as that duty doesn't interfere with Faile's safety. He knows he is a key part in everything that's going on. He knows that he is ta'veren. He fights because he must, just as Rand fights because he must.

 

Perrin's only motivation, at least during her capture, is Faile's safety.  If I remember right he even says "The pattern can burn as long as it sees Faile safe"(don't have the books with me so I don't have a page reference)  Maybe now that she's free he'll become more reasonable, but I won't believe it until I read it.

[Roxinos]

He still has a sense of duty towards Rand, just as long as that duty doesn't interfere with Faile's safety.

 

That line of mine, apparently, bears repeating.

[mb]

The definition of gallant (according to dictionary)::

 

1 showy and lively in dress or manner

2 stately; imposing

3 brave and noble; high-spirited and daring

4a polite and attentive to women in a courtly way

4b having to do with love; amorous

 

Galad would best fit that first definition (dress part).

Second definition, I am undecided

Third definition, perhaps Mat (daring part, maybe noble part) and/or Gawyn (same parts).

Fourth definition (both a & b), I think probably Rand/Lan/Perrin.

 

[stapes2007]

He still has a sense of duty towards Rand, just as long as that duty doesn't interfere with Faile's safety.

 

That line of mine, apparently, bears repeating.

Yeah, that's true.  Sorry, I guess I just misread your first post.

[Cabriana]

I've recently come to realize that Mat is my favorite character. He's so deeply layers. I love that there's so much more to him than meets the eye.

 

He's of good Two Rivers stock and his upbring shows. Although he'd be horrofied to hear such a statement.

[trakand_01]

Haha, yes he would, he'd be absolutely mortified!!

 

Roxinos - as I said at the beginning, this is entirely in my own point of view, I dont ask anyone to agree with me, you're quite welcome to debate  :)

[Roxinos]

I'm glad you're giving me permission, trakand....

[sillyman]

1 showy and lively in dress or manner

2 stately; imposing

 

^^ Rand: Elanye mentions it "he could command a room in rags" and even AS find him imposing.  To me it seems that Cadsuane is the only AS who is not intimidated by him.

 

I think Rand is easily the most gallant.  He thinks he's a goner (the Finns gave him hope but he dares not believe he can survive) at TG but he marches on towards his fate, despite constant pain and a madman in his head. Moreover his main objective other then success at the last battle is to ensure the world is left with something other then the shattered remains of nations.  His reluctance to help Lioal with his book suggest that he's not there for fame but because he is the only one who can.

 

Mat on the other hand is a reluctant hero he spends much of his time dodging his responsibility and while he grows as the series progress he is still prone to selfish acts.  Taking up with Luca's circus is one, he doesn't tell them all the risks involved in the getaway and his presence and that of the AS greatly endanger the show.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Exactly, Rand is way more gallant than Mat. Rand sees an objective and deals with himself the majority of the time. He puts hmself on the front line way more willingly than Mat. Mat is willing, but he grumbels about it, and a lot of the time the fight is drawn to him and not the other way round, whereas Rand identifies what he needs to do and hurls himself at it, and he hardly ever grumbles anymore because he knows he is the only one to do it.

[trakand_01]

Perhaps I used the wrong word with Gallant. I can't think of an appropriate one...

 

Do you not think though, to some extent as you have said, that Rand does things because 'he knows he is the only one to do it', whereas Mat sometimes does things because he thinks he should, regardless of whether it's his duty/responsibility or not? Olver could quite easily have been left on the streets, but he felt bound to look after him, he COULD have said 'No' to Egwene, but he did it because it was Egwene, and when all is said and done I think he has a great deal of respect and affection (of the non-sexual, platonic kind) for her. Also, he could see she was in danger of drowning (at that point in her career) in a sea of manipulative AS.

 

The wonderful thing about this series and the character depth that we have is that we can all have our own opinions, and in many things, no-one is necessarily wrong or right  :)

[trakand_01]

I'm glad you're giving me permission, trakand....

 

It wasnt quite like that. Simply a reaction to the fact that you seemed to be telling me I was categorically wrong - as said, these are opinions and thoughts, I dont suggest them to be either fact or fiction  :) ;)

 

That said, i've been around long enough to take a bit of flack, so debate away!  ;D

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Exactly, Rand is way more gallant than Mat. Rand sees an objective and deals with himself the majority of the time.

But that's not really what being "gallant" is about.

 

Rand has a kind of functional attitude. He does what needs to be done, with little fuss. Mat knows what he's doing. You see it in his POVs. He's always aware that he could well end up dead, but it does what needs to be doing anyway.

 

You don't get that with Rand. It's an empty void.

 

It's difficult to see Rand as "gallant", anymore than you can see him as being brave anymore. He doesn't seem to realise his predicament.

He puts hmself on the front line way more willingly than Mat.

Because, rightly or wrongly, he often sees himself as the only one who can do whatever it is that needs doing.

Mat is willing, but he grumbels about it, and a lot of the time the fight is drawn to him and not the other way round, whereas Rand identifies what he needs to do and hurls himself at it, and he hardly ever grumbles anymore because he knows he is the only one to do it.

But to me, that's why Mat is more gallant than Rand.

 

Mat does things he doesn't necessarily want to do. Time and time again. He's aware he's mortal and that these actions could cost him his life. That's not really the case with Rand anymore.

Perhaps I used the wrong word with Gallant. I can't think of an appropriate one...

I understand you Trakand.

 

Probably says a lot about my mental state.  :P

[trakand_01]

Probably  :P Anyway, I've heard my padded cell is bigger than yours  ;D

 

I like Mat. I think he differs from Rand in the fundamental way that in a lot of situations, it never even seems to occur to Rand that he would fail. Mat is always aware that his neck is on the line, but although he might play with the notion of hiding until the storm/battle passes, I dont think he's ever in any risk of actually doing it.

 

He's a genuinely nice guy, in a moody gambler's (slightly defective) body.

[sillyman]

You don't get that with Rand. It's an empty void.

 

Rand forced himself to become that to deal with situations that ran against his moral code (hanging and manipulating friends) im sure given a choice Rand would chose to return to the care free shepherd he once was.

 

His choice to not seek revenge on the white tower after their kidnapping of him shows his gallantry.  He could easily crush the WT or just Elida for that matter with the Chedoen Kal (spellings wrong), his army of Asha'men and Aiel yet he places his enmity aside, despite their poor treatment of him a fact remarked on by several characters at the time, for the greater good.  His choice not to pursue Galina and Co but aid the battle efforts further exemplifies this.

 

Mat reminds me a bit of Robin Hood, he certainly shares many traits, a hero of circumstance. 

[trakand_01]

I would say Perrin was a hero of circumstance. Faile being the circumstance in many cases. If he hadnt gotten with her I reckon he would have ended up looking for and staying with Elyas eventually, an outcast of society but happy to be 'out of the way'. She thrust him into the limelight and pretty much manouvered him into taking charge of the Two Rivers.

[RAND AL THOR]

I find Mat's character mysterious. He is very mischievous (but this part of him wanes rapidly), and yet holds onto promises. I have never met someone like this, and am curious about the blend of characteristics in this character. The transition from farmer to general is well written (even if over stretched). I did get annoyed at times when he repeatedly refused to take responsibility. It was an annoyance that I also experienced with Rand when he refused to accept that he is the Dragon. While this is understandable, spending an entire 300K + word book on it is irritating.

[trakand_01]

Which responsibilities did you find Mat refused to take?

 

I only ask because although I am sure there ARE some, my head is so full of responsibilities he HAS taken, I have pushed the others out.

 

I think his mischievousness remains, but is changed from a cheeky, careless mischief, into a more dry, almost sarcastic mischief.

 

I also note that as we go along with Mat, his patience starts to wane. He begins 'looking for adventure' and is indeed happy to take some small risks in order to get a bit of fun (didnt he go up onto the roof with a catapult in B.. can't remember the place... when Rand first gets 'giddy' and stands up to the whitecloak?), but ends up where although there might be fun to be had, there's also a job to do, and the sooner it gets done, the better.

[RAND AL THOR]

He takes on responsibility eventually, but takes quite a bit of time doing so. I was somewhat annoyed that he ran off from the White Tower after  the Healing. Of course at the time I was not really aware of what a bunch of ***** AS actually were. So I don't resent him for that now. ;)

[trakand_01]

I also think that he was quite annoyed that they had let Abel go without seeing him (or even telling him), and he'd seen Lanfear, who's enough to put the fear of the light into most people!

[RAND AL THOR]

I also think that he was quite annoyed that they had let Abel go without seeing him (or even telling him), and he'd seen Lanfear, who's enough to put the fear of the light into most people!

 

I think Abel wasn't actually there when Mat was present. Abel and Tam had visited Tar Valon previously, looking for their sons and been turned away. The information was hidden from Mat until he prompted the AS.

 

ohhhhh..Lanfear. You should have a look at this thread, trakand. Lanfear is supposed to be more beautiful than possible.

 

http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,35488.0.html

 

 

[Serenla]

I tend to agree that Mat is the most gallant.  When Rand, Perrin and all the others do something brave, they rarely think about the danger, all they think is that it is their responsibility.  When Mat is faced with danger, he thinks about the fact that it’s dangerous, that he doesn’t want to do it, that it’s not his responsibility and thinks about how to get out of it; then with all of that floating in his mind, he somehow makes himself do it anyways.  Not because he thinks he has no choice like the others, but because he can’t make himself walk away.  I think that it is more gallant/heroic to do something to save others when you are sure it’s stupid and going to get you killed, than it is to do the same thing when you simply see it as your responsibility or only option.  

 

That being said,  I like Mat the most because of the fact that he doesn't let people tell him that something is his responsibility.  He decides who he is loyal to.