Masema Dagar is a Darkfriend

[Guest Dreadlord]

Ok, Im pretty sure this has been discussed but not at length, so lets do it here.

 

All the way through his stage as the Prophet I have thought something was wrong. Sorry, but there is absolutely no way a "madman" can get the sort of following Masema did. Not a chance. At first I thought maybe he was Ta'veren, but in a reread I have begun to see what I think are hints of his dark allegiance.

 

First off. Masema hates Rand aparantly because he is Aiel. Yet why would someone who hates Aiel suddenly start worshipping one? Its a ploy, I reckon. I have noticed that in the Darkfriend meeting in TGH that Rand, Mat and Perrin were shown to the Darkfriends, and THEN "the Shieneran" said "The Dragon! Are we to kill him?" AFTER he finds out one of them looks like an Aiel. We all thought that Shieneran was Ingtar, but that Shieneran was eager to kill the Dragon. Why would Ingtar not have made a move, in all the time he had? Ingtar wasnt a loyal Darkfriend, Masema potentially is.

 

Secondly, Masema has been meeting with Suroth, who we know is a Darkfriend, and he has been negotiating with other Seanchan I believe, which if you take the timing of it into account, these meetings happened well before Rand Mat and Perrin formed any link to the Seanchan, meaning its pretty much a move against the Light.

 

Thirdly, and a very fine detail, is Masema convinced Aram that Perrin was Shadowspawn. Why only Perrin, when Elyas is with the very same group, when Elyas shows the exact same "Shadowspawn" traits as Perrin? Masema knows Perrin is part of the tripod is my theory.

 

What does everyone think? Any evidence against,m or more for? Thoughts please

[Majsju]

The possibility of Masema is very, very small.

 

First of all, the madness is real. We have a confirmation of this from Perrin, and at this point, there is no reason to question his nose.

 

And if we look at the madness, the timing makes perfect sense.

Masema is from Shienar, and for a Borderlander, the Dragon reborn does hold far more significance than for people from more southern nations, since they live with the nightmare that is shadowspawn every day.

Now, look at the events in TGH with that in mind. Masema shows open hostility towards Rand throughout the entire book. Because in his mind Rand is an Aiel parading as a southern lord. Then from out of nowhere the realisation that Rand is the Dragon Reborn is dropped on him. And the madness comes as a direct reaction to this.

 

Now, if Masema had been a DF, why would he go crazy from learning that Rand is TDR? Especially if he had been at the gathering in the prologue, in that case he would have kearned about Rand long before falme. (RJ has confirmed that Ingtar was the Shienarian we saw though).

 

As for a madman being able to gather so many people, that has initially more to do with charisma than level of sanity, and what we have seen of Masema does show a man with a fairly good portion of charisma. And when his gathering started to grow, people would have found other reasons to join him as well. Safety for one. The region where Masema was operating was a place where order had been tossed out the window, people had been driven from their homes and were just drifting around looking for ways to survive. Masema gave them a place to stay, among thousands of armed people who knew how to get food. To me, joining masema seems like a far better option than trying your luck on the road, armed with a kitchen knife and a rusty pitchfork, and not really knowing where you are going.

 

That said, it is of course quite possible that one of the forsaken paid him a visit later on, when rumour had started to spread. A few touches of Compulsion to give him a push in the right direction, and all of a sudden he is helping the shadow without even knowing.

[Guest Dreadlord]

But Masema, as a borderlander, would be more familiar with Shadowspawn than the average guy, and so surely he would know Perrin isnt really Shadowspawn. And if Perrins golden eyes make him a Shadowspawn, why didnt he convince Aram that Elyas was as well? What does Perrin have that causes a threat to the Shadow, that Elyas doesnt? Masema knew Perrin for what he is, a target of Baalzamon, this falls in with the timing of Moridins order to kill Mat and Perrin.

 

Why is Masema dealing with the Seanchan, and more specifically, why is he dealing with Suroth, a known Darkfriend?

 

I dont disagree that his madness is real, but the cause of it is questionable. I mean, even a Darkfriends sanity could snap if he found out he had spoken to the Dragon Reborn.

[Luckers]

I agree with Maj. The likelyhood of Masema being a darkfriend is very minute.

 

All the way through his stage as the Prophet I have thought something was wrong. Sorry, but there is absolutely no way a "madman" can get the sort of following Masema did. Not a chance. At first I thought maybe he was Ta'veren, but in a reread I have begun to see what I think are hints of his dark allegiance.

 

Firstly, as Maj states, the madness is indeed real and verefied by Perrin. Secondly, madmen attain fanatical religious followings all the time. A persuasive argument--which he has--combined with rabid fanaticism draws people, especially when it allows for the type of debauchery Masema's followers engage in.

 

Add to that the civil unrest, drought and in general sucky living conditions and you have an unhappy, malnourished, discouraged populace. Masema offered them a sense of direction, and more than that a powerful sense of belonging and personal authority.

 

That's the three holy grails to a new religious movement. A charismatic leader, a disaffected population and a powerful vision.

 

But Masema, as a borderlander, would be more familiar with Shadowspawn than the average guy, and so surely he would know Perrin isnt really Shadowspawn. And if Perrins golden eyes make him a Shadowspawn, why didnt he convince Aram that Elyas was as well? What does Perrin have that causes a threat to the Shadow, that Elyas doesnt? Masema knew Perrin for what he is, a target of Baalzamon, this falls in with the timing of Moridins order to kill Mat and Perrin.

 

Your expecting rational responses from an irrational man. Masema believes whole heartedly in his vision of Rand, and yet Perrin has a greater authority on what Rand wants done, and disagrees with him. It provides too contridictory realities to Masema, his vision and the actual reality of Rand--but since that it put through Perrin he holds to his vision and tries to remove Perrin, the second of those two.

 

And an easy way to reconcile that is to make Perrin evil--he has animilistic attributes, and animal/human hybrids are shadowspawn... it provides a mental way for him to deal with the contradiction between his beliefs and Perrin presenting the actual reality.

 

Perrin was the threat because of his link to Rand and his disagreeing with Masema's vision. Concluding him to be shadowspawn, and therefore obviously misleading everyone about Rand. Elyas would have recieved the same judgement, but he is not the threat to Masema's precious vision.

 

Why is Masema dealing with the Seanchan, and more specifically, why is he dealing with Suroth, a known Darkfriend?

 

Well the full details of Masema's interactions with the Seanchan are unknown--from the Seanchan perspective Masema has local influence and power, and its therefore better that he be brought into the fold, much like the way they deal with the Children. From there Masema admires the Seanchan's position on channeling, and the way they deal with them, and my guess is that that is where the crux of their alliance is formed.

 

Beyond that, Suroth led the Seanchan. Why wouldn't he be dealing with her?

[Majsju]

There are several explanations to Masemas attitude towards Perrin.

 

If he is still in his own way loyal to Rand, just massively messed up, he might very well believe that Perrin is some kind of shadowspawn. After all, Masema should be familiar enough with the prophecies to know that since the Dragon has been reborn, TG is coming. And with TG just around the corner, why not new kinds of shadowspawn?

If this is the case, it also makes sense why the focus is on Perrin, while not on Elyas. Perrin is the leader of an army that interferes with masemas plans. Elyas is just tagging along for the ride, a fairly irrelevant character who can be disposed of once perrin, the main threat is dealt with.

 

Another explanation that keeps Masema in the Light, is that he does not know about Perrins importance in the great scheme, and has decided that Perrin is not really on Rands side. Travelling with Aes Sedai and asha'man, people using the OP, something Masema believes only Rand is allowed? Direct disobedience of the Dragon reborns orders by going after faile instead of taking Masema to Rand? Poking his ugly nose where it does not belong (ie in Masemas business)? Bad bad bad.

Best way to deal with Perrin? Have him assassinated by someone close to him. How to make the assassin supportive of the idea? Come up with a story that paints Perrin as the bad guy, like lying about him being shadowspawn.

 

Or, if a forsaken has been using Compulsion to set masema on a path more suitable for the shadow, he could be working based on instructions he is not even aware of.

For example, say that he has been Compelled to stay in the region, and spread as much chaos as possible. Perrins plan to bring Masema to Rand directly interferes with this, and if the Compulsion is strong enough, Masema should work to stop Perrins plan. Assassinating Perrin seems like a good way to accomplish this. This is what I am leaning most towards.

 

The chain of events from his introduction up to the events in KOD does support Masema being just this, raving mad, possibly Compelled, but not a DF.

[benr]

I always felt that Masema still hated Rand; the fact that Rand is the DR made that even worse.  His madness is partly reconciling those two diametrically opposed realities.  As long as the DR is a distant concept that Masema can use to further his "religion", Masema is OK (relatively speaking).  Perrin wants to take him directly to Rand, which Masema knows in some way will lead to at least a rebuke by the DR.  Maybe much worse.  He (Masema) transfers that emotion on to Perrin, and seeks a way to avoid the confrontation with Rand.  Masema is not the first fanatic to re-interpret a "savior's" message to conform to his own desires and beliefs, a process well explained by Luckers earlier.  His dealings with Suroth are to further his own "cause"; it is Suroth that is attempting to exploit him (for the Dark), not the other way around.  I don't think he is a DF. 

[Luckers]

I agree... and i think benr caught a really significant point there--Masema hated Rand the person, but loves Rand the concept. Perrin brought back Rand the person to Masema....

 

To hate what you love... or perhaps, be forced to love what you hate... that'd drive anyone mad.

[BIGRED]

My latest theory on Masema will probably be immediately shot down by those more knowledgeable on here. However, I believe that Masema is either Demandred using the mask of mirrors or that Demandred is at his side. Yes, the conditions are favorable for him to gather a mass following with relative ease, but in such a short period of time is not logical without some other driving force. Why would Suroth write a letter like that for him when she could easily crush him and what he does is against everything the Seachen stand for in regards to order and discipline. They could both be dark friends, but that doesn’t really fit pre-prophet Masema. The other Shinearians say that Masema changed a great deal after the people they were supposed to meet weren’t there. What better way to ensure chaos and push people away from Rand can you think of. Mob’s of people who are supposedly followers of the Dragon Reborn, but they rape, steal, kill, riot, and plunder villages every where they go. In fact not a single one of his followers even know who or what Rand looks like Masema could easily say he’s not the Dragon Reborn. One of the primary reasons I have come to believe this Masema Demandred combo is because of a conversation between Sam and Grendal. He says that Demandred and his friends best not interfere with his plans because that chaos has his name all over it… more or less. I don’t have any books with me at the moment and please excuse any misspelling of names… lol

[Sabio]

Well Masema is defiently not Demandred, since RJ said we haven't met Demandred in disguise yet. 

 

Possible a forsaken has used compulsion on him when he started to gain power and attract his mobs, doubt they would of taken much notice of him till he seemed to be gaining power.  I think he just became a zealot and went crazy.  As for why Suroth hasn't ordered him destroyed, they have alot more important things to worry about.  Illian, the Shaido, rebellions happening, planning attack on white tower.  He really isn't a threat to them and with the chaos he is causing is making sure the lands he is in can't pose a threat to them.  Not to mention he shares their dislike of women who can channel.

 

Most the dragonsworn are just mobs of folks who could care less who the Dragon is.  They have flocked to anyone who proclaims themselves the Dragon.  If you remember the whitecloaks were running about making sure places were harassed with dragonsworn.

 

 

[Alderthal]

No, I really think Masema is just extremely mad.

 

He was at Falme, he saw Baalzamon fight Rand and Rand win. Now, we know Baalzamon is a scary guy, and up until he died in Tear, we, as well as practically everyone in the wheel of time series, thought Baalzamon was the Dark Lord himself. I'd imagine that could unhinge anyone.

 

As for Suroth, she is a darkfriend, but that doesn't mean Masema is a dark friend as well. For all we know, Suroth might've been ordered to establish contact with Masema, and 'spread chaos' a little more.

 

Finally, let's end with Moiraine's favorite saying, The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills. :D

 

Masema needed to be mad, in order to send Perrin off to Ghealdean, where he would meet Morgase, the Seanchen, destroy the Shaido (part of the prophecies of the Aiel, at least, part of them was destroyed), learn how to be a lord, and presumably, meet the White Cloaks. I've actually been thinking about the entire saga, and it occured to me that practically nothing major has occured, without it affecting one of the ta'verens. Even the entire Bowl of the Winds side plot, could've just been a very elaborate 'weaving' to get Mat to Ebou Dar in order to meet the Daughter of the Nine Moons. Looking at it that way... Well, it's just an interesting thought.

[Luckers]

My problem with the idea of a Forsaken manipulating Masema and the crowds he's gathered is that its a lot of effort for very little gain--from a Forsaken's perspective anyway. Controlling a mob movement would have taken almost constant concentration and subtle tweaking, and i don't see one of the Forsaken wasting his time on that... which is not to say i don't think that someone might not be pushing at Masema's little gang in order to cause the most chaos.

 

I wrote this out in a lot of detail in another thread titled 'Masuri and Annoura'. I'm just going to repost that coz im lazy, so it'll have references to other things. Sorry. heh.

 

Masuri and Annoura both snuck into Masema's camp several times right up through to the end of KoD--Perrin believes they went to meet Masema himself, and with good reason, to Perrin's eyes he is the only figure in that camp worth an Aes Sedai's attention--the rest are all rag tag zealots. Yet this seems strange--Masema hates Aes Sedai, and even Perrin notes that that continues in spite of the ongoing meetings.

 

[Masema]"...a pity you will not let the Seanchan leash all of them."

His sidelong glance at Annoura and Masuri said he included them, despite the fact that both had visited him in secret more than once. They regarded him with Aes Sedai calm, though Masuri's slim hands moved as if to smooth her brown skirts. She said she had changed her mind and now believed the man must be killed, so why was she meeting him? Why was Annoura? Why did Masema allow them? He more than hated Aes Sedai.

 

[KoD--The Last Knot--609]

 

 

So, several curiosities here. Let me state them...

 

1. Both Masuri and Annoura claim Masema must be killed--Masuri having changed her mind--yet even after changing it, both she and Annoura continue to sneak into his camp.

 

2. Masema allows it, depsite his hatred of Aes Sedai.

 

Or rather, these are the way Perrin seems them--in truth neither Aes Sedai was seen with Masema. Selende says 'they have been meeting with Masema' but in truth all that happened was that one of her people say Masuri and her warder, and occaisionally Annoura with them, sneaking into and out of the camp. He comments are clear on this--they were cited only in transit. The assumption is Masema, which seems fair, yet given the above that seems very hard to swallow.

 

So, if we remove Selende's assumption, and then take the above two points into account, then it seems very unlikely that they are meeting Masema--which raises the question of who are they meeting? Who else would be a figure influencing events in Masema's horde?

 

My guess is a darkfriend. It's the only thing that explains the collusion between Annoura and Masuri, but not Seonid. The only thing that allows for those two to be acting together, yet exclude the other. On every other thing that might bring Aes Sedai together, yet exclude a third, they differ--Ajah, alleigences, history, temprement.

 

So who is this darkfriend? Along the way many have suggested one of the Chosen to be influencing Masema--specifically Demandred. I've always doubted this, and I hold to that doubt--manipulating a mad man and his zealous mob would take way too much constant attention and subtle manipulation. It would be a full time job even for one of the Forsaken, and for its effects its just not worth their effort--oh, it creates chaos, but not on a grand enough scale to keep one occupied full time. Besides, Demandred is a general, direct action is his game--manipulating the fear and hatred of a pseudo-religious following, thats much subtler--say something a spider would dream up.

 

Specifically, I'm suggesting Moghedian sent two members of the Black Ajah to deal with Masema. Berylla Naron and Rianna Andomeran. She took control of Liandrin's group in Amador at around the same time Masema was growing true steam. She assigned several tasks, which we know for the most part. Ispan and Falion were sent to Ebou Dar. Eldrith, Asne, Chesmal, Marillin and Temaille accompanied her north, and later continued north to Caemlyn. This leave Rianna, Berylla and Jeaine.

 

Now, firstly, Jeaine Caide. I exclude her from this scenario because her reaction to her instructions was extreme horror--which makes no sense for this scenario, and completely differs from Berylla and Rianna. Those two both react too their instructions impassively.

 

Furthermore, Berylla is cited by Liandrin as being a deft manipulator and plotter. Rianna, a White, was described as cold with an eye that saw deep into you, into your flaws. Those two would be perfect for this, and Moghedian would be exactly the sort of person who would see it. A deft manipulator and a person who could percieve a persons flaws could tweak a growing mob in exactly the right ways to ensure it grows--they also explain Masema's ongoing survival--a mob should not have held up so well, but with two Aes Sedai, deft at politics, hamstringing the opposition....

 

There is the issue of their Aes Sedai faces, yet Moghedian could have taught them illusion enough to hide that--as far as secrets go, that form of illusion isn't a huge revellation, much smaller than Mesaana's revelation of Travelling to Alviarin. Furthermore we know that women play a vital role in Masema's 'organisation' they serve as as close to officers as Masema has. Disciplinarians, at the very least.

 

So, thats my suggestion. Masuri and Annoura are Black Ajah, and went in to meet Berylla and Rianna, also of the Black. My guess is that this will all come out soon--Perrin's very next sentence in the quote i put above was 'perhaps those questions could be answered now that there was no need to his Haviar and Nerion did not need to be kept safe' (they were both masquerading as Masema's followers until that point, when Perrin had Balwer pull them out).

 

 

 

Another interesting thought--how was Masuri able to attend so many meetings without the Wise Ones knowing it? Answer... she almost certainly couldn't.

[Guest Dreadlord]

I still think there is something not normal about Masema. No way, there are too many unanswered questions, and even though people think his madness gave him charisma it seems like a big stretch and a patchy explanation. Maybe Masema is Ta'veren, but I still favor the Darkfriend idea. People faulted me for looking for too much planning in a madmans work, that Masema would have different reasons for doing the things he does, but Ishamael was insane for the Creator knows how long. Fair enough different types of madness and what not, but still... we will see

[Luckers]

I still think there is something not normal about Masema.

 

Yeah, he's bugnuts. Lol.

 

 

 

 

[Sabio]

Demandred is a general, direct action is his game--manipulating the fear and hatred of a pseudo-religious following, thats much subtler--say something a spider would dream up.

 

Not sure if he has anything to do this or not, but he is one of the few Forsaken we have no idea what he has been up to.  He is a general, but he is one of the few who likes war not to of taken control of a nation.  Also remember what Sammael said about Demamdred "the events in the south has his hand all over them, he has always liked using proxies". 

[Luckers]

Perhaps, but Demandred did not know Rianna and Beryla, and thus was unlikely to use them as proxies--which brings us back to the problem of any Forsaken being behind Masema.

 

 

[Hybrid]

Also remember what Sammael said about Demamdred "the events in the south has his hand all over them, he has always liked using proxies". 

 

Indeed, but remember that this is Sammael's assumption.  He knows no more of Demandred's plots than we do.

[algspkr]

There is the issue of their Aes Sedai faces, yet Moghedian could have taught them illusion enough to hide that--as far as secrets go, that form of illusion isn't a huge revellation, much smaller than Mesaana's revelation of Travelling to Alviarin. Furthermore we know that women play a vital role in Masema's 'organisation' they serve as as close to officers as Masema has. Disciplinarians, at the very least.

There is a scene with Alviarin and Mesaana where Alviarin thinks to herself that Mesaana is no better at illusion than herself, but Mesaana can invert the weave.  Aes Sedai around Mesema would have no need to invert their disguises.

[Sabio]

they also explain Masema's ongoing survival--a mob should not have held up so well, but with two Aes Sedai, deft at politics, hamstringing the opposition....

 

In a strong nation such as Andor, his mob would of easily of been done away with.  But in a weak country such as Ghealdan with rulers who don't hold much power or have much in the way of a army a mob can be a threat and once the rulers realised what a threat he posed, it was too late.

[Luckers]

There is a scene with Alviarin and Mesaana where Alviarin thinks to herself that Mesaana is no better at illusion than herself, but Mesaana can invert the weave.  Aes Sedai around Mesema would have no need to invert their disguises.

 

Mmm, i remember coming accross that myself--my problem being that we've seen Aes Sedai conceal their faces behind hoods even in front of non-channelers when they've had time to prepare.

 

It just seems to me that if Aes Sedai coult successfully conceal their Agelessness they would.

 

In a strong nation such as Andor, his mob would of easily of been done away with.  But in a weak country such as Ghealdan with rulers who don't hold much power or have much in the way of a army a mob can be a threat and once the rulers realised what a threat he posed, it was too late.

 

Except Ghealdin was not a weak nation, nor politically divided--their ruler held full power, and maintained as best a standing army as any in the Westlands (except the Borderlands and the Tower), including Andor, until Masema played his little game. Oh Logain had an initially destabalising influence, but the Ghealdanin were a unified nation, organised and well-established. This was no Altara or Murandy.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Woohoo Ive just got my copy of eotW back, I am guna write down everything that might hint at Masema being Darkfriend or whatever. I really cant see him just being a madman though, he seems way too successful for that to be it I think. Maybe Im looking too far between the lines, but no explanation so far seems to shake off my suspiscion.

[Luckers]

Madmen have done it in the past... but I do agree his success is quite high, which i why i suggested Rianna and Berylla's involvement. They are the perfect women to be ensuring his success--taking down nobles that threaten him, pushing him in one direction over another.

 

The point is, though, that we know he is mad. Thats been verified. Someone may be harnesing his insanity, or focusing it, but he's still genuinely nuts--and genuinely so... he's not mad an a darkfriend, one can't lie about the purpose of ones insanity--he genuinely believes in what he's doing.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Madness isnt always the delusional kind though. Masema seems feverish sometimes but that doesnt necessarily link to his madness. There are other characters whose madness could be considered more maniacal/delusional than Masemas, yet they are still more than aware of what theyre doing. The main examples that come to mind are Fain and Ishamael.

 

Anyway, we will see.

[GrandpaG]

Because of the high regard that borderlanders hold for women in general, it's not hard to believe that the two black ajah women are guiding Masema.  And, they could have been taught how to use compulsion.  Masema definitely has the "spider" written all over his actions.  Demandred is biding his time someplace else.  Masema does not have to be a darkfriend to act like he does.  He could be a darkfriend, but if he is it is not significant.  Randland is full of darkfriends (just ask any Whitecloak) and they are not doing what Masema is.  He was a fanatic/zealot when he met Rand (totally hated Aiel).  Living with Rand in the Mountains of Mist after Falme must have been pure torture and lead to his madness.  When Moraine didn't show up in Ghealdan as scheduled, Masema started small spreading the word of what had happened at Falme.  People were "ripe for the picking" to become his followers as mentioned in previous posts.  After he had successfully defeated the local armies, even the queen was offering him jewelry to leave her country alone.  He could have done it all strictly on the "will of the Wheel", but I like the notion that he was being aided and guided by the Black Ajah which might make him appear to be in league with the Dark One.  I really expected him to be killed in the "Battle for Faile".  RJ must have still had plans for him in AMoL?  ::)

[Guest Dreadlord]

When its all put together it seems to scream Darkfriend to me, interactions with Suroth, a confirmed Darkfriend, as well as potential Black sisters, him convincing Aram Perrin is shadowspawn yet not saying anything about Elyas who is exactly the same, Masema being someone who "worships the Dragon Reborn" yet causes chaos in his name, and I repeat, IN HIS NAME, events to the south fitting with Demandreds style...

 

 

[Mr Ares]

Living with Rand in the Mountains of Mist after Falme must have been pure torture and lead to his madness.

I believe it was Falme that drove him mad. So he was like that befor ethe Mountains of Mist.