Moiraine and Elayne- Rand's Tears and Laughter

[Mat Comes With The Dawn]

I think some of you are going a little too literal with this "laughter and tears" thing. Even when Soreilia and Cads said it' date=' they were speaking metaphorically about making Rand recognize his humanity and weaknesses.

 

I agree with Zardi and kitty. Moiraine's return will break down all the walls he's built up and the joy/grief is just going to come gushing out. Her name is always first in his list of those who died for him, and their mentor/student relationship never really resolved before her disappearance.

 

Moiraine comes back, saves Rand's humanity, and tells Cadsuane to go stick it, cause someone has to.[/quote']

 

It's possible. In POD when the Sul'dam says they killed her damane (I forget the name of it, but it was a given name), Rand panics because he doesn't want the name added to his mental list since the Seanchan are his enemy, but it does get added as "Blank the damane," and he notes "once added, a face or name can't be removed." Obviously, whenever a woman dies he gets harder.

 

Having Moiraine, the most (forgive me for thinking emo) cutting name and face, come back to life will have to erase that name from the list. Maybe his mental list will break down completely since it doesn't allow a name to be removed.

 

As for Caddy and Sorilea, they'll fail in giving him his humanity. After all, their efforts are pretty pathetic. All Caddy is doing is trying to take his head down a rung and teach him manners. And Sorilea hasn't done anything notable.

[n00l3y]

You know, after thinking about it, I realised that there is a chance that Rand will NEVER weep or laugh.

 

Ok, before your start going on about how that would be a total anticlimax to Sorilea and Cads efforts, I feel that it would be a more complete ending to the WoT series. Rand becomes so hard that when TG comes, he wins but the DO does something strange which causes Rand to "shatter". Sad ending...I know, but its a possibility.

 

Oh, and I agree with whoever said that Moir and Elayne scenario would be too convenient. For Rand to win his humanity (or for someone to get it for him), there must be an equally heavy price to pay. And, to me, that should mean death for somebody close to him.

[Asajin]

You know' date=' after thinking about it, I realised that there is a chance that Rand will NEVER weep or laugh.

 

Ok, before your start going on about how that would be a total anticlimax to Sorilea and Cads efforts, I feel that it would be a more complete ending to the WoT series. Rand becomes so hard that when TG comes, he wins but the DO does something strange which causes Rand to "shatter". Sad ending...I know, but its a possibility./quote']

i like the entire idea but i would hope that Rand shatters not because of the DO but something personal and close to his heart. that would make it the perfect sad ending.

[n00l3y]

Well, that would be nice, but haven't we seen too many of those kind of plots in other fantasy stories?

 

Anyway, the thing is, Rand has to both laugh and cry in the space of one book with or he doesn't do it at all. Now comes the speculation. This thread is probably related somewhat to Elayne's pregnancy. Rand may laugh his head of when he realises that he has children, but then mourn the whole day if Elayne has a miscarriage or something and thus she or her babies die. Or maybe one baby dies and the other is defective and, as a result, Rand learns to treasure life all the more.

 

ARGH TOO MANY IDEAS IN MY HEAD!

 

Oh man...I'm having LTT screaming ideas in my head again...

 

My original idea of Tam dying still has more credibility though, as Elayne had only a brief encounter with Rand in Caemlyn before he became the Dragon Reborn, whilst Rand hasn't even stepped into the Two Rivers since he left so long ago. So if the whole Manatheren was killed by Trollocs or something, I think even Rand-the-great would shed a tear.

[Madoc_Comadrin]

I don't have enough time to read through all of these deep, wonderful posts you all submitted, so excuse me if I say something that has already been discussed.

 

When Rand goes over that list of women he's killed, he makes a point of stating that it *always* starts with Moraine. She tops that list. And the list is what he uses to kill off his emotions. So when he realizes that Moraine is still alive, I think all those sessions of self-torture go down the drain. It would fit the story: Rand uses Moraine's "death" to wall up his heart, and then Moraine's "rebirth" knocks the wall down again.

[TheDiceAgain...]

Maybe this has been said before, but just a question; do the "Tears" have to be tears of sorrow? I'm a grown man and I'll admit freely that I cried when first held my niece and nephew, and they're not even my kids. (a fact for which the rest of the world should be extraordinarily happy :))

 

I'm begining thing that this theory hits very close to the mark. Rand will laugh from shear exhilaration when he learns that Moiraine is alive and be brought to tears when he realizes that Elayne is carrying his son and daughter. I know I would/will.

[maximus34]

Word up Madoc! She tops the list always and throughout the entire sries has been guiding him in life (and death), so when she comes back i agree that his emotional walls will come crumbling down for a time... perhaps long enough to get a grip and realize that he is still human... after that *shrug* who knows, we will see...

[Asajin]

I don't have enough time to read through all of these deep' date=' wonderful posts you all submitted, so excuse me if I say something that has already been discussed.

 

When Rand goes over that list of women he's killed, he makes a point of stating that it *always* starts with Moraine. She tops that list. And the list is what he uses to kill off his emotions. So when he realizes that Moraine is still alive, I think all those sessions of self-torture go down the drain. It would fit the story: Rand uses Moraine's "death" to wall up his heart, and then Moraine's "rebirth" knocks the wall down again.[/quote']

 

that idea was initially how this theory was spawned in my head. And we have always had hints that Moiraine meant a lot to him, e.g. whenever he mentions that she would always be at the top of his list

[padainfain]

I wouldnt say moirane's re-appearance (though UBER awesome) will heal rand instantly. He need's to re-learn WHY he'll be crying when she strolls in on thoms arm weaving god knows what everywhere wearing that blue shawl like a banner of war. Whoa got carried away. Learning he can take one name off the list will possibly teach him the lesson of mourn your dead and live on. He's definately mourned everyone on that list enough. Maybe he'll be able to systematically cull the list and start on the road to emotional stability. then Caddy shack will appear out of no where, say two, maybe six words of explaniation of how it was her plan all along and take all the credit.

[n00l3y]

:lol: well, that would be rather like Cads to do such an annoying thing, and I'm quite agreeable to the whole thing. But I still think someone from the Two Rivers will have to come back / die. Rand has descended into such a level of emotionlessness (sp?) that it'll take something REALLY BIG for him to fall down and cry like a little baby. So, here's ,my thought.

 

Ok, we must remember that despite all his strange hallucinations of Rand, Mat doesn't know exactly where he is. So, logically, Mat would take Moirane to the Aiel or Andor. But we know that the Tower of Ghenjei is around Whitebridge, so he'll probably take her to Caemlyn. So Moirane and ELayne will be together in Caemlyn. Then, probably Perrin, Lan or Tam will go to Andor. Perrin and Tam because, like Mat, they would think Rand is there. Lan perhaps because Nynaeve is needed in Andor. Rand goes back to Caemlyn for goodness-knows-what reason, and then he goes all mushy when he sees all his good old pals along with Moirane and Elayne.

 

Another possibility would be the presence of Aviendha, but then there would be some problems cause she's in Arad Doman.

 

Just my hypothesis, feel free to whack it.

[revcain]

Ok this theory of mine has a lot of loopholes so I was hoping u guys could help me out with it. Ok as we all know Cadsuane and one of the Wise Ones(Amys i think) wants to teach Rand laughter and tears again. Now if we think back the last time Rand cried was Moiraine's death. The last time Rand laughed was when he saw Min again in Cairhien. And we know that Moiraine is gonna come back in the last book(hopefullly). So if Cadsuane and Amys were to somehow meet Moiraine before Rand and make an entrance together with Elayne in Arad Doman when Rand is gonna do something particularly cold-hearted' date=' maybe he will cry tears of joy when he sees Moiraine and laugh when he finds out hes gonna be a father. It would make sese as Rand loves Elayne as much as he loves Min. This was a random thought while i was bathing and thus will have many loopholes so try not to shoot my precious idea down b ut improve it....

 

PS:My first post!!![/quote']

 

I havent gotten to knife of dreams yet, im on the end of crown of swords right now, but ive been curious about the morraine situation, i never did buy her being dead, as for elayne, ive always had a feeling that her character does not end up where we ewould hope, but your theory does sound relatively sound

[GTPapabear]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I tend to remember a dream that Egwene had near the begining or middle (not sure which book) of the sereies where she was in a room in the White Tower (perhaps the Amrilyn's Chambers?) Where people barge in and take her to a room where 13 sisters are and 13 Myydrall...

Might this play a pert in the tears or something?

[n00l3y]

hmm... interesting point GTPapabear, but I thot that it was in the novice to Accepted test where they have to go through three holes. Anyway, I always thought that was pertaining to Egwene's future, not Rand's.

[GTPapabear]

Well, by play a part, i mean could it be that in the final book Egwene gets turned to the DO by this means and maybe tries to destroy Rand? maybe he destroy's her before that can happen?

I mean, RJ has made it a point to point out that 13 sisters and 13 Myydrall can turn someone to the DO against their will, and since this is the last book, you would think he would use this oppotunity to unlease such a thing. AND it WAS egwene who saw it (and it may HAVE been in the Testing for accepted, didn't think of that) and she is a dreamer...

I don't know. It's alot of speculation and alot of guessing. I'll leave it up to you guys to solidify it if possible.

[Asajin]

Well' date=' by play a part, i mean could it be that in the final book Egwene gets turned to the DO by this means and maybe tries to destroy Rand? maybe he destroy's her before that can happen?

I mean, RJ has made it a point to point out that 13 sisters and 13 Myydrall can turn someone to the DO against their will, and since this is the last book, you would think he would use this oppotunity to unlease such a thing. AND it WAS egwene who saw it (and it may HAVE been in the Testing for accepted, didn't think of that) and she is a dreamer...

I don't know. It's alot of speculation and alot of guessing. I'll leave it up to you guys to solidify it if possible.[/quote']

 

I can;t remeber the exact words but i vaguely remember something RJ said about the 13 Myrdrahll and 13 BA concept very hard to stage(lets face it where are we gonna find 13 BA sisters and 13 myrdraal). But nonetheless i think its an interesting idea. But I think it would be more plausible if it were Nynaeve as it has been stated that Rand is the only Aes Sedi he trusts fully. Also Egwene has distanced from Rand and I think though he would suffer great emptional loss over death it would be greater if it were nynaeve.

[Rumor]

Egwene and the thirteen BA, thirteen Myrdaal scenario is from her Acceptance test. TDR Chapter 22. It's not a necessarily a prediction of something that will happen. Sheriam says in response to being asked if what happens in the rings is real says

"The answer is, no one knows..."

 

But furthermore, if what happens in the rings is possibilities and it is possible for this to happen, we still have some inconsistencies that would lead us to believe it will not happen in AMoL. Specifically, during this scene, Egwene has the ageless look so it is at the least a number of years in the future that this could happen. And since we don't really know how the tests are formed by the Ter'angreal, it could be that the 13 are a function of her fears of the BA and her just finding out that it's possible to be turned in such a way right before she enters the rings for the third time (the rings are supposed to be using your greatest fears to test you after all).

[Rumor]

I like the idea that Moiraine being foremost on Rand's "list" is the basis for her return leading to an emotional breakdown and his re-learning of how to feel. Of everything I have read, it makes the most sense to me since breakdowns are usually the result of a complete failure in logic or belief that someone has held tight to himself. Once that breakdown has begun, I see no reason that his pending babes won't help to move it along, or that Tam won't help in some way as well; but I agree Moiraine is the key.

 

Perhaps what Cadsuane (and Sorilea maybe) will end up teaching Rand is not how to "laugh and cry" again, but how to deal with/handle those feelings once they have come back...of course, I don't know how Cads will teach this to the other Ashaman as well or how they will learn to feel, but it's just a thought. Rand's been walling up so many feelings that when the wall crumbles it's going to be an extreme mess.

[racha_giurgiu]

Okay, here goes a strange thought. Min saw that a woman dead and gone would have to be there at TG in order for Rand to succeed, she assumes that this person is Moiraine, as we all have all along. That would explain her "only vision to fail was Moiraine." She's assuming the woman is Moiraine. What if it is Lanfear? I'm not saying Moiraine doesn't come back, Tower of G, Thom, something after TG.. but Lanfear was dead and isn't now and she could be the woman. Super powerful lady wanting to aid LTT at TG so power could be hers- signs point to LTT becoming more and more prevalent in Rand's consciousness. Lanfear/Cyndane switching sides once again doesn't seem like too much a stretch at this point. Wouldn't that be a twist!

 

please don't walk all over me for this one.

[kittydesmond]

My only argument to that is that Moridin has a mind trap on Cyndane and short of his death, I see no escape for her at this point.

 

Still it will be most interesting to see what becomes of her...

 

 

Long live Moraine!!!

[racha_giurgiu]

Blasted mind traps. There must be away around them.

 

Though... if the whole Rand/Moridin swap happens then Rand/LTT will be in control of Cyndane? They (he?) won't know what to do with a mind trap and may inadvertantly release Cyndane all of this at TG and she aids him to win.

 

Mind trap issue averted! Wee

[RobertAlexWillis]

You can't be inadvertently released from a mindtrap. The only release involves a deliberate method performed at the Pit of Doom.

[racha_giurgiu]

::Grumbles:: I remember when you couldn't be healed and when the taint was always going to be on saidin. Not disagreeing with you at all Robert. We've seen so much happen that shouldn't have been able to occur, but does because of the WonderBoys/Girls. So much story yet to wrap up.

 

Back to the topic of Moiraine/Elayne & Laughter and tears.

[racha_giurgiu]

Pit of Doom... Tarmon Gaidon. Dark One trying to use all of his resources and thinking that releasing Cyndane would be a distraction of some sort or an aid to his side intentionally releases her from the mindtrap.

[RobertAlexWillis]

It can happen. Just not "inadvertently". And just because it's possible doesn't make it very likely.

[kittydesmond]

Personally I dont subscribe to the swap theory....