Worlds Like Flowers

[Vassili]

During an internal dialogue, Rand and Lews Therin come up with a metaphor describing the Creator and his role. According to Rand Therin, the Creator is like a gardener and the World is like a flower. The Creator nurtures the garden as a whole, but does not go out of his way to help any particular flower. I think RJ delibrately put this in to explain to us why the Creator doesn't just step in and fix everything. If you've read this scene before (i think its in CoT), then maybe you can help me with my question. What is a "World" as defined in this example?

 

It doesn't seem that the worlds reached by the portal stones could be Worlds (note the capital) because they are just projections of the main world with variations. They are linked to the main world in that 1.) they are similar to the main world, and the greater the difference the weaker the world's stability 2.)the DO is either free or imprisoned in ALL worlds, and 3.)it is said by Verin that they are a part of the Age Lace, and are all interwoven by TAR. Also, if they are all the world's in the Creator's garden, wouldn't the Creator take a more direct role in combating the DO?

 

Are they Universes? Planets? What else is in the Creator's "garden"?

 

 

[Majsju]

That thought comes from Moridin, and his views on the Creator might be a tad...coloured, so to speak.

 

That said, if he is correct, which he of course might be, especially since LTT seemed to agree with him, I think the other worlds would be similar to the one we are reading about, planets with their own Wheels, or perhaps attempts to use different methods than the Wheel to keep things in order.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Or maybe they all come under the Wheel but are seperate, with ways to get to and from each other. Verin commented at one point that the Portal Stones can take you to other worlds, some that are similar and some that are completely different to this one.

 

I wonder if the Finns are on one of these worlds. It seems as if their realms (or one at least) is bound by different rules, Mat noticed odd stuff when he looked out of the windows when he went through the ter'angreal doorway in Rhuidean I think. Something like he was walking down a corridor lined with small windows, he looked out of one and saw something and then looked out of another and didnt see whatever he saw from the first.

[Luckers]

If it helps, RJ confirmed that both the realms of the Aelfinn and Eelfinn as well as the original homeworld of the Ogier are all parallel worlds (the question was whether they might not be perpindicular worlds, like the ones Verin theorized crisscrossed the pattern, and that was his response).

 

 

[Hybrid]

That thought comes from Moridin, and his views on the Creator might be a tad...coloured, so to speak.

 

I think we can trust Moridin on this because he is thinking to himself, not explaining to Rand.  Why would the man lie to himself?  Also, he was a well-known philosopher in the AOL, so I believe his view to be correct.  And, as you stated, Lews Therin agreed with him.  Of course, they could both be wrong.

 

In regards to the worlds, Verin also mentioned planets in other solar systems.  The question is, do these worlds all know and fight the DO?  And did Mierin's Bore project doom every world or only Rand's world?

[Alderthal]

Basically, the theory that goes is, there's one pattern, but it's horribly complicated. Basically, whatever can be, whatever decisions anyone makes, whatever outcome of events occurs, are all within the Pattern. However, certain decisions and outcomes influence many of the worlds, make them 'realer' in a way. Like the world Rand went into with Hurin and Loial. That one had Artur Hawking and his armies defeated by the Trollocs instead of the other way around. However, the world was also pale and washed out and lifeless. A copy of a copy of a real world. Which would mean that Artur Hawking failing to destroy the Trollocs is not a very common occurence in the Pattern.

 

Other worlds have people in them, and they are probably as real as the current world that the WoT series revolves around in. Some minor differences perhaps, but still very real.

 

The only two things that are universal to all the worlds however, is the DO and the Creator. As Verin said in TDR, either the DO is bound in ALL the worlds, or free in all of them. Likewise, I'd assume the Creator has the same.

[Roxinos]

I think we can trust Moridin on this because he is thinking to himself, not explaining to Rand.  Why would the man lie to himself?

 

Maj wasn't supposing Moridin was lying. He was merely suggesting that, considering Moridin's position in the war (Shadow vs. Light), he wouldn't hold too high of a view of the Creator. Hence:

 

his views on the Creator might be a tad...coloured, so to speak.

 

In regards to the worlds, Verin also mentioned planets in other solar systems.  The question is, do these worlds all know and fight the DO?  And did Mierin's Bore project doom every world or only Rand's world?

 

I think this is getting a bit too crazy. *laughs* There are limits on a person's ability to posit theories about a book series.

 

However, removing all else, if there are other inhabited worlds, they were just as screwed by the Bore's creation as the people of Randland. The Bore is not limited to any space. The Bore is said to just simply exist. It is everywhere. What makes Shayol Ghul so special is that the Pattern is thinner there, so you can feel the Bore more easily.

 

There's a lot you can think on why you can feel it more. How the Bore itself was created if it is everywhere. Etc. Etc. I'm not going to, though.

[Ashaman Kovan]

It doesn't seem that the worlds reached by the portal stones could be Worlds (note the capital) because they are just projections of the main world with variations.

Are they Universes? Planets? What else is in the Creator's "garden"?

 

Who is to say that Randland is the "main" world? Just because it's the one we read about doesn't prove anything. There is no way we've seen every other alt world, so for all we know the one we read about is just a "projection" Go read luckers thread on "The creator and his intentions" to see my idea of the whole creation thing. I don't feel like typing it on here again. But basically the other worlds (including the "Main" world we read about) are all just different atempts by the wheel to create a perfectly balanced existence. The mistakes and flaws in each one vary depending on....I don't know what. How well the wheels chain is oiled?

[Luckers]

In regards to the worlds, Verin also mentioned planets in other solar systems.  The question is, do these worlds all know and fight the DO?  And did Mierin's Bore project doom every world or only Rand's world?

 

That was actually Moghedian, not Verin.

 

But yes, if the Dark One escapes it dooms all worlds--as is stated by Loial. My guess is the Dark One's true intention is the destruction of the Wheel, not the remoulding of it--a being of the Dark One's nature could not truly escape without destroying the reality that imprisons him. Even when the Bore was unsealed he could only fit a pinky-finger.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Whats saying Moridin is right about the Creator? Ishamael was known as a philosopher, but how could anyone in WoT know what the Creator thinks? Moridin wasnt lying, he was speculating to himself

[Luckers]

True, but thats precisely what a philosopher does. Speculates using logical parameters to limit and focus the progression of his thoughts.

 

Just pointing out he was speculating is counter-productive, since speculation is his area of expertise, and an area in which he was praised.

[Majsju]

It should however be considered that Moridins philosphy was what made him join the shadow in the first place, so his thoughts regarding the Creator might be a wee bit more towards the negative.

[Luckers]

Very true.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Ok, I was saying Moridin was speculating in response to when somebody said "Why would Moridin lie to himself." I suppose I should have been clearer.

 

Anyway, I very much doubt that Moridin is a reliable source for this subject, and I say that for several reasons.

 

First off, Moridin is in no better than anyone else to reason out this matter. I can understand why he could reason out things like Herid Fel had done about the Bore, and about time supposedly repeating itself, but certainly not on anything to do with the Creator, since nobody has supposedly had any contact with him save what we heard might have been him in EotW. Why would Moridin of all people know about the Creator?

 

Secondly, in an interview I remember someone asked RJ about Ishamaels rantings and ravings about this war being fought countless times since the beginning of time, and RJs response was "you believe Ishamael? Come on, man!" While that doesnt necessarily mark him off the list completely it hints that his word isnt that reliable, probably because he is insane, which I dont think he was when he was famous for his philosophical achievments. So Ishamaels musings on subjects like this are probably less reliable than they ever have been.

 

Thirdly, as Maj said, Moridins view of the Creator are likely to be somewhat biased, since he is the Creators nemesis's right hand man. (Or left, if you count Shaidar as the right, blah blah blah) so Moridin isnt likely to have anything nice to say about the Creator.

 

That thought about the Creator and his gardens or whatever might as well not have been said for the ammount of faith you can put in it.

[Luckers]

First off, Moridin is in no better than anyone else to reason out this matter. I can understand why he could reason out things like Herid Fel had done about the Bore, and about time supposedly repeating itself, but certainly not on anything to do with the Creator, since nobody has supposedly had any contact with him save what we heard might have been him in EotW. Why would Moridin of all people know about the Creator?

 

Firstly, Moridin is in a better situation to reason out this matter. As I stated his training as a philosopher directly presents itself to such a situation. As to Herid Fel... firstly, nothing in what he was reasoning had any more evidential basis than the question of the Creator (unless you are suggesting Fel had direct experiences with the bore and the overall nature of the Wheel). Secondly he too, like Ishamael, would have a better situation to reason out this matter. Their intellectual training is what enables such discourse.

 

You seem to not understand the nature of philosophy. It is a discipline of considering the unproveable in the frame of logically described paradigms. Or, more accurately, assessing and dividing the unknown into catagories of knowledge. This applies to both situations, and those that are skilled in it can do so quite effectively--hence the reason that we as a society respect them.

 

Secondly, no one has had any interaction with the Creator save what Rand heard... that we know of. We know nothing of what the histories of the Age of Legends include on this matter, and if the Creator spoke once...

 

Thirdly, as to why Moridin of all people might know something about the Creator. It's quite simple, he, of all people, has had the ear of the one being in a position to have actually, properly, known the Creator. That doesn't nessasarily mean he's right, but he does have access to a source of direct knowledge unknown to anyone else.

 

Secondly, in an interview I remember someone asked RJ about Ishamaels rantings and ravings about this war being fought countless times since the beginning of time, and RJs response was "you believe Ishamael? Come on, man!" While that doesnt necessarily mark him off the list completely it hints that his word isnt that reliable, probably because he is insane, which I dont think he was when he was famous for his philosophical achievments. So Ishamaels musings on subjects like this are probably less reliable than they ever have been.

 

The question was about Ishamael's comment that the Dragon soul had joined the Shadow in the past. To which RJ replied "You believe Ishamael? Come on, man! Ishamael is a lying liar that lies."

 

Which he is. He actively lies to his enemies and comrades all the time, but all are a function of words. The comment we are dealing with are his thoughts. And whilst he was unstable as Ishamael, that was a result of his use of the True Power over the millenia. He has not shown that instability since being recycled into Moridin.

 

Thirdly, as Maj said, Moridins view of the Creator are likely to be somewhat biased, since he is the Creators nemesis's right hand man. (Or left, if you count Shaidar as the right, blah blah blah) so Moridin isnt likely to have anything nice to say about the Creator.

 

Mmm. As I said to Maj's post, I agree. Though to your addition--I don't think Moridin has any intentional hatred of the Creator. He was not actively speaking against him, he was thinking of his ambivalence, and in relatively calm words. It wasn't a hostile speech.

 

Moridin's position in life leads him to be predisposed against the Creator, but nothing in his actual thoughts relate any hatred, or passion. It was a philosophical sidenote of a talented intellectual.

 

That thought about the Creator and his gardens or whatever might as well not have been said for the ammount of faith you can put in it.

 

That I disagree with thoroughly. The modality in which he said it was thoughtful, not hateful. This wasn't retoric on his part, he truly believes it. And he was one of the most talented philosophical minds of his time.

 

He's current position demands that we treat his thoughts as biased, but they are nontheless incredibly relevant.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Hmm. Im not always convinced by talks like this but I think I might be on this one. That being said, I cant remember that scene in particular although I do remember thinking there was someone else that Lews could hear so its probably that. Anyone got a book & page reference for that passage?

[trakand_01]

I just read this chapter last night, it's when Logain and Bashere have finally figured out to use the Warders left behind in Cairhein to find Rand and the sisters with him, and Rand is in his 'meeting' with Logain.

 

They're discussing the fact that Taim has given orders for the Asha'man to bond sisters against their will, and they are talking (read: rand is furious) about it.

 

I can't remember exactly how the thought comes about but I THINK Rand has just thought how Min wanted to be away from the meeting, and that he couldnt make up nor down from Fel's books, but she loved them.

 

Then this thought, which surprises Rand, because he thinks 'he'd never thought about the Creator like that', and LTT 'nods in agreement'. So, not him, not LTT.

 

So I have to admit that my initial thought was 'only person it could be is Moridin then', but how? When did Moridin start injecting his thoughts (intentionally or otherwise) into Rand's thought process? Is it part of the 'merging', that Rand thinking about one thing, can conjure up Moridin's opinions as if they are his own?

 

Does Moridin have the same thing? Could prove quite interesting for a Forsaken (Nae'blis, to be precise) to develop the opinions of a farmboy  ;D