What effect do oath rods have on the soul of the user?

[Mr Ares]

How many women murders with the one power in the age of legends?

There are more crimes than murder. And more ways of committing those crimes than just with the Power. Remember, the Oath Rod can bind channelers against actions committed without the Power...Unless you think Aes Sedai need to channel to lie?

[Dakeyras]

But in order for him to be bound he has to say the oath, I doubt the few wise ones could have over powered him. And they dont know compulsion. So they cant make him say it.

 

He was meeting quite a few wise ones iirc and Someryn is described as being powerful in her own right. Wotmania lists her on the same level as Nynaeve though the accuracy of that is questionable.

 

As for not knowing compulsion, Liandrin and Verin both know a form of compulsion and we've never had a POV from any wise one other than Therava iirc. Who's to say what they know.

 

 

[Ndshacker]

Yes but Verin and Liandrin's form both take ages to use, remember the women verin used it on, already had to be under your control, (At least so much that she didn't kill you in the mean time>

[Hybrid]

I fail to see how Beldeine was already under Verin's control.  You seem to be suggesting that to use compulsion on someone, they must already be compulsed.

[Ndshacker]

I suppose control is the the wrong word, and thats a paradox  :P What I mean is, what women or man that can channel would sit there while a women or man wove a web like that, So my point only applies to channelers, but the point remains, the person she is using g that type on, must be A) Completely unsuspecting B) In submission one way or another. C) Not be able to Channel

[Hybrid]

Ah, I see what you mean now.  Yes, compulsion can only be used on the unsuspecting.  And the stronger a will the person has, the more likely they will fight it, unless you fry their brain with it.  Also, I believe holding saidin renders you immune to it (but not saidar strangely...perhaps an effect of the different channeling philosophies?)

[Dakeyras]

Yes but Verin and Liandrin's form both take ages to use, remember the women verin used it on, already had to be under your control, (At least so much that she didn't kill you in the mean time>

 

Can't recall what book it's in, possibly the 5th but Liandrin tried to use her form of compulsion on Moghedien. It didn't take ages to use and Moghedien certainly wasn't "in submission." Granted she failed but then Moghedien turns around and uses her compulsion on a suspecting Liandrin.

 

Which makes me wonder if strength in the one power is needed to make the compulsion more effective or just to overpower the persons strength of will.

 

The wise ones compelling Sammael is a moot point ofcourse because like Hybrid said, Saidin gives him immunity.

[Ndshacker]

So here we are again, Ndshacker was right That guy has nothing to fear from them so he has no reason to lie to the Shaido.

[Hybrid]

Referring to yourself in the third person Ndshacker?  Does the taint have you so far in its grasp? ;D

 

Well, there are other ways of forcing someone to do something, but they tend to be more messy than Compulsion.  If Sammael was overpowered, they could threaten him until he bound himself.  There would be no guarantee that they could, but it is an option.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Maybe the effect the oath rod has is strictly biological. To a point. It needs the person it's being used on to be able to channel as a conduit, but maybe it literally just locks up the centers in the brain that you use to lie, use violence etc.

 

Maybe it could be used to make people do things they didn't know how to do before. Like maybe rand could use it to bind himself saying like..."I will be a blade master only with my left hand" or something and he would all of a sudden know how to use the sword just as well with his left. I don't really think it works like that, but it's still interesting.

[Dakeyras]

So here we are again, Ndshacker was right That guy has nothing to fear from them so he has no reason to lie to the Shaido.

 

Not quite. You were the one who suggested compulsion was necessary for the binding, proving that he couldn't be compelled doesn't prove he had nothing to fear from a good number of female channelers.

 

All they needed to do was link, he would have been overwhelmed and at their mercy. Just look at how Therava treated Galina and you'll have the beginnings of an idea to what Sammael would suffer..

 

Although personally I can't understand a penal system being dependant upon the criminal. Perhaps in the AoL the Aes Sedai overseeing the binding was able to bind the criminal without the criminal needing to swear an oath. It's not un heard of for current Aes Sedai to misuse ter-angreals.

 

Like maybe rand could use it to bind himself saying like..."I will be a blade master only with my left hand" or something and he would all of a sudden know how to use the sword just as well with his left. I don't really think it works like that, but it's still interesting.

 

That would require the oath rod to transplant the knowledge of HOW to use a sword with just his left hand into Rands brain though. It's more likely Rand takes that oath and can only use a sword with his left hand no matter his skill with said hand. Which is nill as of KoD. 

[Ashaman Kovan]

Maybe it could siphon his knowledge of how to use it right handed and just transfer that with mild tweaks to conform with his left.

[Telcar]

But how does it work?

The persons thread in the pattern has many different possible paths, I believe that the pattern doesn’t give them options that would let them go against the oath

Therefore the oath rod (Binder) is a tool of the pattern

Pattern controls “souls” and re-spins them out to its purpose

 

Don't think it works that way. IMO the binder doesn't involve the pattern, (any more than any other ter'angreal, or any other thing in Randland for that matter). Aes Sedai who have the oath "not to channel the one power as a weapon"  are repeatedly thrown into action. They have to feel in danger to be able to use it to blast non shadowspawn, (shaido, seanchan etc.). In the end of KOD when Mat is pwning the seanchan with his new crossbows and asks the green ajah Aes Sedai with him to aid them with the power (Joline?), she says she can't because she feels safe. So we can conclude that the rod binds people so that it is physically impossible for them to do whatever it is they are not supposed to.

And no people bound with the oath road will not be spun into the pattern like the heroes.

 

Well, you're assuming two things here.

 

1) The oath rod was in existence before the Heroes.

1:since we know this isnt the first turning of the wheel.... thats a chicken and egg argument.

 

1:: No it's not since humans don't break their "shells" and emerge fully formed from the oath rod.

 

Can't recall what book it's in, possibly the 5th but Liandrin tried to use her form of compulsion on Moghedien. It didn't take ages to use and Moghedien certainly wasn't "in submission." Granted she failed but then Moghedien turns around and uses her compulsion on a suspecting Liandrin.

 

Which makes me wonder if strength in the one power is needed to make the compulsion more effective or just to overpower the persons strength of will.

 

Liandrins form of "compulsion" is almost completely different from moghediens. The chosens way is much more powerful and it doesn't hurt the one it is used on unless it of course fries his or her brain. It makes the victim try with all her might to please the compulser, which we saw when she compulsed Elayne and Nynaeve. Compulsion is forbidden for Aes Sedai now because of how powerful and dangerous it is.

[DemandredFO]

Just so no one asks Compulsion DOES NOT work on a man holding saidin but DOES work on women holding saidar.

[Mr Ares]

Maybe it could siphon his knowledge of how to use it right handed and just transfer that with mild tweaks to conform with his left.

Most sword forms use two hands. He now has to learn to do all of them with one. Seems a bit more than minor tweaks may be in order.

[Swigaro]

Although personally I can't understand a penal system being dependant upon the criminal. Perhaps in the AoL the Aes Sedai overseeing the binding was able to bind the criminal without the criminal needing to swear an oath. It's not un heard of for current Aes Sedai to misuse ter-angreals.

 

In her POV, Semirhage says when the hall of servants found out about the pain she liked to inflict when she healed someone, they gave her two choices, either to be severed, or to be bound to never inflict pain again.  She instead escaped and defected to the shadow.  In light of this, I think the Aes Sedai who oversaw binding would have little trouble getting someone to swear an oath.  Assuming that Semirhage's escape was not the norm, given the choice between binding and severing, what choice would they have?

[Ashaman Kovan]

Maybe it could siphon his knowledge of how to use it right handed and just transfer that with mild tweaks to conform with his left.

Most sword forms use two hands. He now has to learn to do all of them with one. Seems a bit more than minor tweaks may be in order.

 

Okay then, some fairly major tweaks. Either way it kind of sounds like a good theory. It's just for the sake of a theory really. But I don't honestly see why theres no way it could work.

[Dakeyras]

Well according to your theory Rand could say

 

"I swear on the oath rod that I will only fly to wherever I need to go."

 

Suddenly he'll know how to and be able to fly?

 

"I swear to be the smartest person alive."

 

The oath rod transplants all that knowledge into his mind out of nowhere?

 

The oath rod's just a ter-angreal. It's not like a computer that stores sword forms on a hard drive inside the rod. Where would the rod get the knowledge of how to use the sword left handed and thus be able to teach Rand?

 

 

[Fryn]

Well according to your theory Rand could say

 

"I swear on the oath rod that I will only fly to wherever I need to go."

 

Suddenly he'll know how to and be able to fly?

 

"I swear to be the smartest person alive."

 

The oath rod transplants all that knowledge into his mind out of nowhere?

 

The oath rod's just a ter-angreal. It's not like a computer that stores sword forms on a hard drive inside the rod. Where would the rod get the knowledge of how to use the sword left handed and thus be able to teach Rand?

 

 

 

Well in the first case if Rand didn't know how to fly he wouldn't be able to move at all. In the second example if it wasn't true it would conflict with the oath and he would die. Much like you see on TV shows when they make a joke about robots self destructing from finding a paradox. At least I think that would happen, although I'm not too sure.

[Dakeyras]

That was my point. The oath rod wouldn't automatically make the things he swore come true just because he swore them on the oath rod.

[Mr Ares]

Well according to your theory Rand could say

 

"I swear on the oath rod that I will only fly to wherever I need to go."

Well in the first case if Rand didn't know how to fly he wouldn't be able to move at all.

How so? He could interpret that Oath as only flying to places he needs to go, meaning he has to use methods of transport other than flight to get to places he only wants to go.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Well according to your theory Rand could say

 

"I swear on the oath rod that I will only fly to wherever I need to go."

 

Suddenly he'll know how to and be able to fly?

 

"I swear to be the smartest person alive."

 

The oath rod transplants all that knowledge into his mind out of nowhere?

 

The oath rod's just a ter-angreal. It's not like a computer that stores sword forms on a hard drive inside the rod. Where would the rod get the knowledge of how to use the sword left handed and thus be able to teach Rand?

 

 

 

Theoretically it would only work with things that the person has at least a limited understanding of. If they know the basics of something then why couldn't swearing an oath to be better at it cause them to drastically improve upon something that they have some knowledge of. I'm not talking about things like flying that are impossible even for channelers. In the case of the sword. He already is a blademaster with his right hand so it stands to reason that with something that could work like that...Lets see...He knows how to use the sword at the level of a blademaster...He knows how to use his left hand...So why couldn't he learn to be a blademaster with his left hand? Like I said it's just a theory for the sake of fun I guess, but I still think it's more possible than you think.

[Dakeyras]

Theoretically it would only work with things that the person has at least a limited understanding of. If they know the basics of something then why couldn't swearing an oath to be better at it cause them to drastically improve upon something that they have some knowledge of.

 

It could be argued that Rand has the basics for being smart so the "I swear to be the smartest" oath would still hold. So the oath rod would need to instill Rand with some Einstein brain power. The flying example was exaggerated to prove the point.

 

He already is a blademaster with his right hand so it stands to reason that with something that could work like that...Lets see...He knows how to use the sword at the level of a blademaster...He knows how to use his left hand...So why couldn't he learn to be a blademaster with his left hand?

 

No he isn't. Rand's a blademaster with both hands. I think it was Mr Ares who previously pointed out that most of the sword forms require two hands. Rand even says this to Bashere in KoD. He also says he'll have to learn the sword all over again. Meaning two hands is vital to his skill as a blademaster.

 

 

Like I said it's just a theory for the sake of fun I guess, but I still think it's more possible than you think.

 

The only problem I can see is that the oath rod would need to instill certain abilities or knowledge into the person swearing the oath. If the oath rods purpose was to seek out this knowledge, keep it stored somewhere inside itself, then yes maybe it could do those things.

 

The theory certainly isn't as far out there as some.

 

 

[Ndshacker]

He could say " I swear to only use a sword with my left hand."

 

I wonder if he could weave a web, to make the sword balance in his hands better... Because, as i understand two hands is used mainly for stability, and the swing direction, it would be harder for him to hit people on his right side. So he would still have to relearn but it might make it easier.

[Majsju]

He could say " I swear to only use a sword with my left hand."

 

I wonder if he could weave a web, to make the sword balance in his hands better... Because, as i understand two hands is used mainly for stability, and the swing direction, it would be harder for him to hit people on his right side. So he would still have to relearn but it might make it easier.

 

That would only result in him not being able to use a sword at all. Especially since the left hand does not exist anymore ;D

 

As for weaving a web, he would basically have to weave a "hand" that had a great deal of mobility, and I can not see how that would be possible.