R.J. didn't lie but "Mazrim Taim" is Demandred

[benr]

Wait - I'm lost; are you saying that Taim wears capri pants?

[Ashaman Kovan]

Mr ares does I think? I don't know. I came into the conversation at an odd time lol.

[algspkr]

Dreadlord, you've backed yourself into a corner, and not just because of what Ares has raised--though he is indeed correct, Dreadlords did indeed exist in this age--they were gathered and trained by Ishamael during the Trolloc Wars, and in enough numbers to equal the Tower, which at the time numbered over 6,000.

Didn't Ishamael have 300 years of Trolloc Wars to do this, not the twenty he has known of Rand?

Not to mention that the amount of men who can channel who the Tower have found have randomly decreased--we know it isn't due to culling the ability, though the numbers have fallen from 3% to 1% since the Age of Legends that still represents hundreds of thousands of channelers, and far more sparkers than have been caught by the Tower, even with  3/4 dying.

 

No, there are Dreadlords out there seperate from any channeling organisation; both male and female.

I agree with this, but I doubt that they will match Rands Numbers, though they may come close to matching the Aiel.  I also would not be surprised if there were very few men on the lists as I doubt that the seals have been week enough to allow protection for that whole period.

 

Also when Taim agrees to train men for Rand he did seem to have a fairly good idea of how many men should be able to learn to channell.

[Ndshacker]

I would like to point out that the logic of Taim gathering darkfriend channelers behind rands back is BUNK. We have no direct proof short of what he said in KoD. And if that is the case, why did he kill the grey man, he could have just as easily killed rand. If it was to gain his trust, then i see a point, but maybe rand didn't considering what he said afterwards. 

[Fryn]

I would like to point out that the logic of Taim gathering darkfriend channelers behind rands back is BUNK. We have no direct proof short of what he said in KoD. And if that is the case, why did he kill the grey man, he could have just as easily killed rand. If it was to gain his trust, then i see a point, but maybe rand didn't considering what he said afterwards. 

 

Cause the DO doesn't want Rand dead yet? If Taim is a DF he will be near forsaken status, and would know not to kill Rand "yet."

 

While its true that without the dragon teh light can't win, after reading the series you also get the feeling the DO can't unravel the pattern completely without the dragon either.

 

[Mr Ares]

Dude, it's a kilt. A KILT!!!

Of course. You could at least have the guts to admit it's a skirt, rather than lying like a Scotsman. Next you'll be taking up the caber toss.

 

Wait - I'm lost; are you saying that Taim wears capri pants?

So does Demandred. It's one of the reasons for the confusion - why would RJ have two guys with indentical fashion sense without them both being the same?

 

Mr Ares does I think? I don't know. I came into the conversation at an odd time lol.

You could try going back to the beginning then - on the seventh day, God didn't rest. He created fashion! Noah's Ark was really about getting rid of all the animals that clashed with his new colour scheme.

[Majsju]

Normally, I would tell you to get back on topic, but since the original topic was Taimandred...Carry on ;D

[Luckers]

Didn't Ishamael have 300 years of Trolloc Wars to do this, not the twenty he has known of Rand?

 

Not really, we know that the dreadlords proved an equal force to the Aes Sedai through the entirety of the Trolloc Wars--which means maintaining a force of between 6,000 and 8,000 channelers at any one time including losses in the war.

 

It's possible of course that at the very beginning the channeling forces were limited, but how long coul that last--i mean, we see around 25 channelers wipe out 100,000 trollocs in KoD.

 

the end game is, Ishamael did not gather those forces over the course of the Trolloc Wars, but rather sustained forces of that number throughout it.... which implies an immediacy that 20 years would provide for--especially with the number of channelers in the world that are unclaimed--some hundreds of thousands.

 

I agree with this, but I doubt that they will match Rands Numbers, though they may come close to matching the Aiel.  I also would not be surprised if there were very few men on the lists as I doubt that the seals have been week enough to allow protection for that whole period.

 

I'm not sure i understand what you mean--Rand's asha'man number 1,000, whilst the Aiel number some 6,000 channelers. Beyond which, the idea that the weakness of the seals would effect the Dark Ones ability to protect male channelers from the taint is flawed--the Shadow was able to protect male channelers during the Trolloc Wars.

 

But i do agree that there is female dreadlord not linked to any known organisation.

 

Also when Taim agrees to train men for Rand he did seem to have a fairly good idea of how many men should be able to learn to channell.

 

What is your basis for this... he shows a knowledge of how to test men, and of the dangers testing men can have, but nothing i recall indicates numbers.

 

I would like to point out that the logic of Taim gathering darkfriend channelers behind rands back is BUNK. We have no direct proof short of what he said in KoD. And if that is the case, why did he kill the grey man, he could have just as easily killed rand. If it was to gain his trust, then i see a point, but maybe rand didn't considering what he said afterwards. 

 

A few points.

 

Firstly, Taim has been gathering men specifically--we know this as a fact. It's been stated by Logain, and actively witnesed by Toveine, and Pevara sees the effects. Oh, they are ostensibly Asha'men, so that not behind Rand's back, but the subterfuge is clear.

 

Secondly, as raised above no one suggested he was gathering men behind Rand's back. Those men he has presently gathered occured openly, hence Logain's bitching. What was stated was that he gathered and trained men who could channel prior to the beginning of the story. He, himself states this, and we have no reason to doubt it. What we do have reason to doubt is his comment that these men went mad. As a darkfriend, he obviously had an opening for them, and again a reason to lie about his success in that area.

 

Thirdly, he did obviously send the grey man in order to kill it and 'gain rands trust'. The play of the scene lays it out, and it fits his methodology. The attack on Demira, for instance. Or the attack on the manor in Tear.

 

Of course. You could at least have the guts to admit it's a skirt, rather than lying like a Scotsman. Next you'll be taking up the caber toss.

 

My friend, i sleep with men, do you really think i'd hesitate at wearing a skirt. It really was a kilt.

 

:p

 

 

[Sabio]

Taim had to of become a darkfriend after joining Rand, or else he never would given over the Seal to the dark ones prison.  Not even a Forsaken would of allowed him to do that. 

 

Most likely he became one after the forsaken infiltrated the black tower.  Wouldn't be hard for a Forsaken to notice his ambition and to tempt him.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Quote from Mr ares (Since I can't seperate the others out)

You could try going back to the beginning then - on the seventh day, God didn't rest. He created fashion! Noah's Ark was really about getting rid of all the animals that clashed with his new colour scheme.

 

 

So you mean....The Bible is just a work of fiction? And all of those stories in it are just that?  :o

sarcasm

 

[algspkr]

I agree with this, but I doubt that they will match Rands Numbers, though they may come close to matching the Aiel.  I also would not be surprised if there were very few men on the lists as I doubt that the seals have been week enough to allow protection for that whole period.

 

I'm not sure i understand what you mean--Rand's asha'man number 1,000, whilst the Aiel number some 6,000 channelers. Beyond which, the idea that the weakness of the seals would effect the Dark Ones ability to protect male channelers from the taint is flawed--the Shadow was able to protect male channelers during the Trolloc Wars.

 

But i do agree that there is female dreadlord not linked to any known organisation.

Well you are giving Rand 7,000 there and lets say another 5,000 with Windfinders, Aes Sedai and Kin putting Rand at 12,000 which would be about twice the Aiel which is what I gave the Shadow.  You seem to think that the Shadow will have more, and are likely correct.

Also when Taim agrees to train men for Rand he did seem to have a fairly good idea of how many men should be able to learn to channell.

 

What is your basis for this... he shows a knowledge of how to test men, and of the dangers testing men can have, but nothing i recall indicates numbers.

When Rand brings Taim to the farm Taim seems to think that he would be lucky if any of those who wandered in would be able to channell, and attributes finding as many as he did to Rand's luck.

 

On a side note I have started a reread beginning with NS, and have come up with the thought that Ishameal's anger with the Black Ajah's attempt to kill Rand early on may have been in part due to his desire to gather new dreadlords.

[Mr Ares]

Taim had to of become a darkfriend after joining Rand, or else he never would given over the Seal to the dark ones prison. Not even a Forsaken would of allowed him to do that.

Why not? Because you say so? You really believe his story of how he found the seal?

 

Of course. You could at least have the guts to admit it's a skirt, rather than lying like a Scotsman. Next you'll be taking up the caber toss.

My friend, i sleep with men, do you really think i'd hesitate at wearing a skirt. It really was a kilt.

 

:p

My friend, I'm English, and thus understand that there is no difference between a kilt and a skirt (from wikipedia: "The kilt is a garment in the form of a knee-length skirt"), and that this is just an excuse cooked up by the Scots to justify their tendencies towards cross-dressing. Also, while there is a not-inconsiderable amount of overlap between the skirt-wearing and man-screwing demographics (not least amongst women of the opposite sex) sleeping with men and wearing women's clothes are not the same thing - it is entirely possible you could be willing to do one but not the other. I'm sure it suited you, though.

[Cockta]

Why are you guys talking about kilts and skirts, when this is a thread about MAzrim Taim, and the fact that he is Demandred.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Fact?! When did it become a fact? I'm confused....Did someone go and change the definition of the word "Fact" after I went to sleep last night? ???

[benr]

Leave him alone - he's a Republican.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Oh okay. I get it. It's a condition. ;)

[CatinaSedai]

so who is taim then if not demandred?  is he the dark one?

[Avery]

He's Mazrim Taim. Probably a Darkfriend, likely a Dreadlord, perhaps a Third Age Chosen.

 

That's it.

[CatinaSedai]

so you think that taim is a new chosen?  did someone get kicked out of the club then?

[Raistlin]

Question of the Week

 

Week 4 Question:

At recent book signing following the release of Crossroads of Twilight, it was reported that you confirmed that the Forsaken Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, who was introduced to Rand at the beginning of Lord of Chaos. Have you confirmed that Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, leader of the Black Tower?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: Yes. Demandred has never posed as Mazrim Taim. All right, those of who fell over from the shock of a simple, straightforward answer can get up off the floor now. Sometimes, simple and straightforward can be the most devious of all, as any student of Aes Sedai will tell you. <Maniacal laughter from the shadows!>

 

i just read this. My question is did Demandred kill Taim and start calling himself the M hael? He would never actually be posing as Taim just the M'hael. I hope I spelled that right.

[CatinaSedai]

so if he said he never posed as taim then he could still be taim right?  i mean if i said i never posed as tina then that is true because i am tina.  i am not posing as tina.  so maybe taim is demandred after all.  what do you think?

[DemandredFO]

Taim is the Baron Vladimir Harkonnen

[Majsju]

No, Taim is not Demandred, and Demandred is not Taim. I think all the important evidence are already listed in this thread, otherwise there are a lot of threads about this on this board that makes it without a doubt clear why they are not the same person.

 

Taim is taim, a third age character who decided the grass was greener on the other side. (He can not have visited the Blight before turning ;D)

[CatinaSedai]

lol

[Avery]

did someone get kicked out of the club then?

 

There isn't a limit to the number of Chosen there can be. Before the Bore was patched up by Lews Therin, there were 30ish Chosen. Of the Forsaken, however, there are only 13. "Chosen" and "Forsaken" are not the same thing. The Forsaken are 13 specific Chosen who got caught in the Dark One's prison because their timing sucks.

 

so if he said he never posed as taim then he could still be taim right?  i mean if i said i never posed as tina then that is true because i am tina.  i am not posing as tina.  so maybe taim is demandred after all.  what do you think?

 

Taim was around before Demandred was free, so they were never originally the same person.

 

But yeah, the evidence has been re-covered in this thread already.