LTT -Level of Insanity!

[RAND AL THOR]

I rest my case.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Dreadlord -

 

The Forsaken ( kinda ) might like to have Rand on their side ( maybe ).  There's that whole thing about the DO wanting to make him Nae'blis, though, and they've each got their own eyes on that.

 

But, turning him only makes any sense if he is not about to abruptly descend into terminal madness.

[Mr Ares]

Why does Semi say He is insane when he very clearly isn't?

Because he very clearly is. Sane people don't have voices in their heads, for one thing.

 

Why assume there have been meetings we haven't been shown?

Semi expresses knowledge of something Lanfear said. What possible gain was there from the Lanfear name drop? Was it just a good guess? If we never see Semi being given said knowledge, where does she get it? Somewhere we didn't see. Q.E.D.

 

Also, are you going to address my point? His abrupt madness (which isn't even a certainty, even if she is telling the truth) happening 10 minutes after he has won does them no good. They need to neutralise the threat, not just carry on with the asumption that it will stop being a threat at a convenient moment.

[Bob T Dwarf]

To borrow some logic from somewhere....

 

We don't know what sane people have in their heads because there are no truly sane people.  Please provide evidence to support your contention that sane people don't have voices in their heads.

 

Please also provide evidence that Rand will not abruptly descend into terminal madness before TG.  I mean it's certain that he WILL abruptly descend into terminal madness because Semirhage says so, right?  So exactly when is abrupt, again?  Supply a verifiable Abruptness Timetable please.  Would that be the 2:35 abrupt or the 7:06 abrupt?

[Guest Dreadlord]

I personally think when Semirhage said "I understand the descent into terminal madness can be...abrupt" the way she said it and looked at Rand, added to the subject of him talking to a real voice, I thought she was referring to that symptom of Rands rare madness type. I think she meant when you get to the point where you hear the real voice, THAT can happen abruptly, THAT is the terminal madness she is talking about. She was saying Rand already has descended into terminal madness.

 

Thats how I got it anyway.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Since none of us lives in Semi's head, you could be entirely right.  It's as good a guess as any about what she's trying to get them to accept.

 

So, then, IF she's right, he's either a ticking time bomb that could erupt in a fury of wanton destruction at any second, or he's gonna keel over at any second from the rotting sickness that eventually consumed all male channelers who have gone mad.

 

IF he's supposedly already into the terminal phase, time would be very short.  They probably need to shield him immediately.

 

That could make this whole incident the second time Perrin needs to come to his rescue:

And there was something else, something new, an aura of yellow and brown and purple that made her stomach clench. "Aes Sedai are going to hurt you. Women who can channel, anyway. It was all confused. I'm not sure about the Aes Sedai part. But it might happen more than once. I think that's why it seemed all scrambled."

Since that one is shortly before he's kidnapped, it might already have happened, but then, there's this one...

"When you two were together, I saw those fireflies and the darkness stronger than ever...But with the two of you in the same room, the fireflies were holding their own instead of being eaten faster than they can swarm, the way they do when you're alone. And there's something else I saw when you two were together. Twice he's going to have to be there, or you... If he's not, something bad will happen to you. Very bad. It will happen if he is not there, but nothing I saw said it won't because he is. It will be very bad, Rand."

 

None of that says anything about Semirhage having told the truth, just that maybe all, most, or just some of those with him might believe her.

[Mr Ares]

To borrow some logic from somewhere....

 

We don't know what sane people have in their heads because there are no truly sane people. Please provide evidence to support your contention that sane people don't have voices in their heads.

 

Please also provide evidence that Rand will not abruptly descend into terminal madness before TG. I mean it's certain that he WILL abruptly descend into terminal madness because Semirhage says so, right? So exactly when is abrupt, again?  Supply a verifiable Abruptness Timetable please. Would that be the 2:35 abrupt or the 7:06 abrupt?

Well, as sane and insane are terms used not by experts but by laypeople, then asking some laypeople as to whether they would consider someone with a voice in their head to be sane or not would seem to be a reasonable litmus test of whether or not voices in the head can be considered a sign of sanity. So, just ask some laypeople. If they want more than just "has a voice in his head", you can point out that the subject has an agreement with the voice to commit suicide in the not too distant future, and again query the sanity of the subject. You could also point out that the subject has something of a tendency towards throwing tantrums, including when someone he sent on a task did better than he asked for. And that he endlessly repeats a list of the women he has killed. And that he didn't care when his hand was blown off by a fireball. Point out all this and I'm sure you won't have to work all that hard to get some layperson to say, "yeah, that guy's totally nuts" or words to that effect. I've already got a few people to agree that the subject would appear to be a little on the crazy side.

 

Also, you continue to fail to address my point. How can I provide evidence that he will only descend into terminal madness after TG when there is no guarantee (only a likelihood, no matter how much you try to put words in Semi's mouth) he will descend into terminal madness at all? My point was that the Chosen also don't know when or if he will go, so they either keep clear of a ticking time bomb that may or may not ever go off - giving said time bomb an advantage - or act as if said bomb will not go off (when they're close, at least), and hope that this is correct. If they do nothing, Rand wins. They need to act. They need to act against Rand. As they don't know when or if Rand will descend into terminal madness it really becomes a non-factor in terms of long- or short-term planning.

[Asmo]

Actually, Semirhage stated precisely what we've been seeing for six or more books happen in Rand's head. Whether that is a conventional form of insanity, the effects of the taint, random coincidence or the result of being the Dragon Reborn is irrelevant. Semirhage said the truth as much as any Aes Sedai would.

 

Oh, and it's pretty obvious the Forsaken had had many meetings we haven't witnessed. Because... it was stated to be so. Demandred and Mesaana and Semirhage had been meeting a lot, and Sammael and Graendal. Many of the Forsaken have shown knowledge of each other's locations and states that has not been passed along in the meetings we've witnessed. Unless they can mind read, and from across the world to boot, it's pretty much a given fact that they are in frequent contact with at least some of their associates.

 

As for how insane Rand is, exactly, well. He's obviously not flat-out crazy, but he's been showing evidence of a split personality, depression and emotional instability. However you want to define insanity, Rand is pretty close to any definition, even if you completely accept the voice in his head as normal.

[D24g0n]

Well, as sane and insane are terms used not by experts but by laypeople, then asking some laypeople as to whether they would consider someone with a voice in their head to be sane or not would seem to be a reasonable litmus test of whether or not voices in the head can be considered a sign of sanity.

I don't think you can base calling Rand insane off of him hearing a voice in his head.  That voice in his head has been confirmed to know things Rand would have no knowledge of.  For most people, having a voice in your head is a good sign of insanity, but for most people that voice is created by themselves.  Its still possible for Rand to have created LTT in his head, but I don't think he did.

 

If they want more than just "has a voice in his head", you can point out that the subject has an agreement with the voice to commit suicide in the not too distant future, and again query the sanity of the subject.

Rand thinks he is alive only to prepare for and win TG, and that once TG is over it would be better for everyone if he was dead.  This is an extremely selfish thought, but not necessarily an insane one.  Rand has come to see himself as just another piece in the game, and once his usefulness is over, he is not needed.

 

And that he endlessly repeats a list of the women he has killed. And that he didn't care when his hand was blown off by a fireball. Point out all this and I'm sure you won't have to work all that hard to get some layperson to say, "yeah, that guy's totally nuts" or words to that effect.

Endlessly repeating a list of women who died because of you is no indication of insanity, but emotional scarring.  Not caring about losing your hand is a little crazy, but not really insane.  Rand only cares about what he needs and can use, and then only so much.  If you look at it from his mindset, he won't need his hand because he can channel, and even then he is going to die soon anyway.  So he has no reason to care for it.  Besides, he has gotten used to extreme amounts of pain constantly affecting him, what is having a hand burned off compared to the wounds in his side?  You can make almost anyone seem insane by leaving out all of the facts and reasons behind their actions.

 

Either way, I do agree that it would be better for the Forsaken to go after Rand instead of leaving him to do as he pleases.

[CUBAREY]

I'm sure you won't have to work all that hard to get some layperson to say, "yeah, that guy's totally nuts" or words to that effect.

 

Well, the main problem with your theory is that it takes into account "a voice in his head". Most laymen would presume this voice not to be real but instead a sign of insanety. While we know that the voice is "real". Now taking into account not only that the voice is real but the entity behind it is insane (taken together with the prophecies that at least obliquely caLL for Rand's death at TG) a bargain to live until TG seems quite rational to me. Moreover, the rest of your examples have been dealr with but I will only add that Bashere's reaction to Rand's non-rea ction at losing his hand puts the lie to your theory. Bashere may be many things but crazy is not one of them but he takes Rand's explaination at face value why? Because it makes sense, maybe not to you but to someone like Rand Bashere or Lan whose purpose is to fight the DO anything but failure is acceptible.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Also, you continue to fail to address my point. How can I provide evidence that he will only descend into terminal madness after TG when there is no guarantee (only a likelihood, no matter how much you try to put words in Semi's mouth) he will descend into terminal madness at all? My point was that the Chosen also don't know when or if he will go, so they either keep clear of a ticking time bomb that may or may not ever go off - giving said time bomb an advantage - or act as if said bomb will not go off (when they're close, at least), and hope that this is correct. If they do nothing, Rand wins. They need to act. They need to act against Rand. As they don't know when or if Rand will descend into terminal madness it really becomes a non-factor in terms of long- or short-term planning.

 

I don't address your point because, as my posts consistently make clear, I don't accept your premise.

 

You postulate that Semirhage recited nothing less than a totally accurate medical diagnosis.  Now you expect me to offer arguments about the timing of the prognosis she laid out??? ???

 

Since I do not believe for an instant that she was the least bit accurate in her diagnosis, I'm unwilling to indulge your fantasy about timing.

 

Plain and simple:  Rand has more problems than it's useful to catalog, but an abrupt descent into terminal madness isn't one of them.

 

If you want me to respond further, first, prove your premise.  You haven't actually made any point until you're operating from a solid foundation.

 

First principle of logic: In the absence of proof, all statements are false.  Where's Semirhage's proof? 

[Blackmoore]

The Taint had two primary effects -- madness and sickness.

 

We have very little insight into the madness -- our text sources are Rand, LTT from the Eye of the World and Hopwill.  Everything else is second hand speculation, like our knowledge from Hopwil.

 

Rand of course is plagued by LTT, whom we know to be a real personality fragment.  LTT in turn talks to Rand about "the other one."  That makes me wonder whether LTT also heard a voice in his head -- specifically, that of the Dragon prior to the Age of Legends.  If Rand channeled with the taint long enough, would his head eventually fill up with dragons? 

 

Hopwill suddenly and apparently believed that he was a small child.  What we don't know is if Hopwill was also taken over by a voice of a small child, maybe one of Hopwill's past lives that died young?

 

That brings me to two other anomolies -- Taim and Logain.  Logain and Taim seem completely sane to me.  Taim may have been sheilded as the Chosen have been from the taint.  Logain is clearly no Darkfriend though.  It has always bothered me that they are both completely sane.

 

Basically, my theory is that all the male channelers will end up hearing the voices of previous lives in their heads.  The farther back in time, the longer it takes.  Logain and Taim's previous lives are very far back.  It seems to me that in many ways Logain and Taim are sort of substitutes for Sammael and Demandred, who because they were protected by the DO were not available to be spun out again by the wheel.  Just like the Wheel spun out false dragons, the Wheel spun out false Demandred and Sammaels

 

 

[Mr Ares]

I don't address your point because, as my posts consistently make clear, I don't accept your premise.

 

You postulate that Semirhage recited nothing less than a totally accurate medical diagnosis.  Now you expect me to offer arguments about the timing of the prognosis she laid out??? ???

 

Since I do not believe for an instant that she was the least bit accurate in her diagnosis, I'm unwilling to indulge your fantasy about timing.

 

Plain and simple:  Rand has more problems than it's useful to catalog, but an abrupt descent into terminal madness isn't one of them.

 

If you want me to respond further, first, prove your premise.  You haven't actually made any point until you're operating from a solid foundation.

 

First principle of logic: In the absence of proof, all statements are false.  Where's Semirhage's proof?

Where's your proof she was lying? All statements we make regarding Rand's descent into terminal madness are false, because we don't know if, when, how, or anything else about it. Glad we could get that out the way. Neither of us has any proof. That doesn't stop you addressing the point, even if you disagree. After all, others have managed to address my points on Rand's insanity, and done so in a way that shows they disagree with it. Are you saying you are incapable of the same with regards to this point? Excuses, excuses. So, Bob: How should the Chosen act if they do not know when or if Rand will become completely non-functional or dead? Should they ignore him and hope for the best? Should they ignore the potential problem of his insanity? WHAT SHOULD THEY DO? It's not a "fantasy about timing", it's about action. HOW SHOULD THEY ACT IF THEY DON'T KNOW WHEN OR IF HE WILL ABRUPTLY DESCEND INTO TERMINAL MADNESS? Is it really so hard to even grasp what my point is? D24g0n seems to have grasped it.

 

LTT in turn talks to Rand about "the other one." That makes me wonder whether LTT also heard a voice in his head

The other is Moridin. From the link. That's why he doesn't mention him until after Shadar Logoth.

 

Basically, my theory is that all the male channelers will end up hearing the voices of previous lives in their heads.

The Taint causes madness, but not any specific sort of madness. In other words, it destabilizes mental states, but not in any specific way. Hopwill regressed into childhood, we hear about another guy who went mad very early on, talking about spiders on him (obviously he was taken over by a voice that believed he was covered in spiders...). The madness doesn't come at any specific time. Some go mad within hours, others last years. It depends on the individual.

 

As for the insanity issue, if you really think that a guy who hears a voice in his head, plans on suicide, doesn't care about his own physical wellbeing, is disassociating emotionally from others, can't control his temper and displays pathological behaviour is sane, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. The way I see it, calling him insane is not a stretch at all. And yes, giving the reasons for Rand's behaviour might make him seem a tad saner. Then again, the same is probably true of a lot of madmen as well.

 

Because it makes sense, maybe not to you but to someone like Rand Bashere or Lan whose purpose is to fight the DO anything but failure is acceptible.

I understand the minset. Doesn't mean it's a healthy one.

[Bob T Dwarf]

All statements we make regarding Rand's descent into terminal madness are false, because we don't know if, when, how, or anything else about it. Glad we could get that out the way.

 

So am I.

 

Semi is selling snake-oil because she doesn't know any of those things either.

 

And, because she doesn't know any of the things she's pretending that she does, her attempt to capture Rand makes some sense.

 

Now, let's move on to another of your errors.

 

Rand is neither dissociating nor planning suicide.

 

He's avoiding people that he knows love him because he ( wrongly ) believes that by doing so his death will hurt them less.  And because he sees himself as a lightning rod.  He thinks if he stays away, they'll be safer. 

 

He bought LTT out of a suicidal fit, by assuring him that they would both die at TG.  That death is prophesied.  Prophesy always comes true in WOT.  Rather than planning his own death, he's trying to resign himself to it, while simultaneously trying to figure out how he can survive it - the Finns told him that "to live you must die" - and the Finns also are never wrong.

 

So, since he is fated to die, he's trying to figure out how the timing and circumstances of that death can work to insure his survival.  Naturally enough he fears he won't be able to solve that puzzle.

 

If the skull work involved in all of that doesn't tie anybody's head and emotions in knots then he is a better man than I, Gunga Din.

[Mr Ares]

All statements we make regarding Rand's descent into terminal madness are false, because we don't know if, when, how, or anything else about it. Glad we could get that out the way.

So am I.

 

Semi is selling snake-oil because she doesn't know any of those things either.

 

And, because she doesn't know any of the things she's pretending that she does, her attempt to capture Rand makes some sense.

How is Semi "selling snake oil"? What is she pretending to know that she doesn't? We don't know what she knows, despite your claim that we actually do. Well, we know she said a bunch of true things, so we know some of what she knows. But she cannot, of course, know when or if Rand will descend into terminal madness - nor did she claim to. She only claimed that he probably would.

 

Rand is neither dissociating nor planning suicide.

He is planning to die and is doing his level best to wall himself off from any feeling so as to remove any "weakness" and make himself harder. Close enough to what I said, we don't need to quibble further about details.

 

Have we ever caught Semi in a lie, does anyone know? Just idle curiosity.

[Bob T Dwarf]

No, he's planning to survive.

 

Not only are Randland's universal truths slightly different from ours, but the rules for the Dragon Reborn are unique and different from both ours and Randland's.

 

"To live, you must die."  Nonsensical on the face of it.  But, the Finns cannot lie.  Thus, there is a hidden truth than unravels that paradox that Rand must puzzle out.

 

He's peddling up that hill just as fast as he can.

[RAND AL THOR]

Rand seem to be resigned to death. He tells everyone so but he does seem to have a tiny hope for life due to what the Finns had said. But he seems more or less resolved to die if necessary. He doesn;t understand what the Finn's mean by 'to live u must die' and anyway they are also advising him to die in a way.  ???

[Bob T Dwarf]

I agree.

 

It's a tough puzzle.  He's been digging at it a long time.  He's starting to play-out, and becoming increasing afraid he won't figure out the answer in time.  If he doesn't he thinks his ultimate situation will go from dead -> alive, to, dead -> dead.

 

He's desperately wants the first outcome, but he's trying to resign himself to the second.