LTT -Level of Insanity!

[Mr Ares]

effected his ability to reason (which is what madness is).

Experts-don't-use-the-term-madness-but-laypeople-do-and-Rand-could-be-considered-mad-by-a-layperson-therefore-Rand-is-mad.

 

There is no way to prove if Semi lied or not, but the best lies contain at least some truth.

They also contain at least some lie. Without that, they are just the truth.

 

In nearly every 'Chosen-meeting', they are all manouvering for position by mis-information, lies, harrasment, etc.

So the Chosen lie to each other do they? More on this later.

 

Lanfear's dark eyes glittered for a moment before she regained control of herself. "He may be Lews Therin reborn, but he is not Lews Therin himself."

 

"How do you know?" Graendal asked, smiling as if it were all a joke. "It may well be that, as many believe, all are born and reborn as the Wheel turns, but nothing like this has ever happened that I have read. A specific man reborn according to prophecy. Who knows what he is?" (TFoH, Prologue - The First Sparks Fall)

I've bolded a relevant part of that. Bear in mind that hearing the voice of someone from the past, someone that knows things that the person suffering with the voice couldn't possibly know, does not prove that the voice is that of a past life. Usually, this would happen long after anyone that knew the original was long dead, and most people are not reborn according to prophecy. This is something new, outside the experience of the Chosen. And more Ishamael's province that Graendal's. There is reason for uncertainty on their part. Plus, of course, she could be lying to them...

 

Whether the boy was a simple farm lad or Lews Therin himself truly come back- she [Graendal] could not make up her mind on that-he had proven himself far too dangerous. (LoC, Chapter 6 - Threads Woven of Shadow)

This says absolutely nothing about Rand's madness, only about the fact that people being reborn according to prophecy is outside the experience of the Chosen.

 

The above quotes show that Graendals own thoughts on this subject -"a healer of the mind beyond compare" (TWoRJTWoT, Chapter 6 Semirhage)- are a good hint that Semirhage is lying.

But they are far from conclusive and there are more possible expalanations than yours. Those quotes do not prove that Semi is lying, not by a long shot.

 

From Graendal's own mouth - she's never even read about anything similar to what Semirhage describes to Rand and his entourage.  Graendal isn't even willing to offer an opinion on what Rand is or what that might mean.

 

Semi is making it up as she goes along, guys.  She'll likely have even more fearsome things to say in the future.  And those will be equally specious.

So let me get this straight. Semi says something with no provable grain of lie in it, and is thus lying. Because Chosen lie. Graendal says something, and yet her statements are automatically taken as fact. Because Chosen don't lie to each other. Except, as pointed out above, they do. You can't take words from Graendal's own mouth as any more certain that Semi's, because Graendal could be lying. Or the truth you hear may not be the truth you think you hear, Bob. "A specific man reborn according to prophecy." She could easily have never read anything about that, but still have encountered people with real voices of past lives. Because those voices from the past would not prove that the Wheel reincarnated people, it would prove only that there is some mechanism for the memories of the dearly departed to resurface in the minds of the still-with-us. Or is it only comments from RJ and AS that you have to parse very carefully? Remember, it's not rebirth that is her specialty, it's mental illness. She may not know a lot about the former, but she is an expert on the latter. However, the quotes provided do not address the mental illness issue, only the rebirth one. And therein lies her uncertainty.

[Bob T Dwarf]

The lie begins with what Semirhage tells them Graendal told her.

 

As the quotes demonstrate, Graendal said no such thing.  So, when Semi tries to back up her assertion using Graendal's supposed expertise with identical cases, she lied.  All of the rest of what she asserts depends on the lie about Graendal's specious experience with those identical cases.

 

When the foundation is rotten, the house can't stand.

 

Accepting that Semi told the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth is the easy answer.

 

Here's another Jordan quote:

I think I would like fans to walk away with the following. If the answer is easy, consider the possibility that you asked the wrong question.

 

Maybe more fruitful questions to ask are:  If Rand is simply fated to go totally froot-loops and die, why have the Forsaken been trying so hard to capture him?  Why did Semirhage, personally, come out of hiding and expose herself to capture and possible death just to get her hands on somebody who is destined to be more of a problem to his friends than to his enemies?

 

Probably because the answer to those questions is that he isn't destined to go suddenly and terminally nuts at all.

 

 

[anamul]

Semi has no reason to tell a truth either. Since that won't serve her well with Cady. She might have gotten herself captured, as many here claims. But she made a mistake if she did. Whatever Semi is, Cady is one step more tougher and smarter. LTT himself is wary of her and that saying something.

 

On the tophic, it is somehow contradictory to speculate that forsaken is liable to lie to each other but not to Cady and company. It doesn't make any sense to argue the fact on that term alone.I can't prove that Semi is lying but I can't prove to the contrary either. I can only speculate and asses based on the situation in where I have no reason to trust Semi except add her confession to her crime list.It won't be wise for Cady and company to trust Semi for more than one reason.

 

As I said before, to sell a big lie, tell a convincing truth. It is one of the most common but effective trick. Even when everyone know this, people tends to fall for it anyway.

 

[Raistlin]

There are several characters in the books that have obviously been reborn. The most clear cut example being Mat. He has the memories from his past lives. He shows no signs of what Rand is experincing. Mat can remember thousnads of lives he has had. Rand can only remeber one. And it has a mind of its own. It may be madness. I would like to think there is a reason for it though. Some part it will play in how it all ends.

[Mr Ares]

There are several characters in the books that have obviously been reborn. The most clear cut example being Mat. He has the memories from his past lives. He shows no signs of what Rand is experincing. Mat can remember thousnads of lives he has had. Rand can only remeber one. And it has a mind of its own. It may be madness. I would like to think there is a reason for it though. Some part it will play in how it all ends.

So where are these characters who have been reborn? Mat? Not one shred of evidence of a past life. All those memories in his head came from the Eelfinn, and before them from people who visited them. So who?

 

Semi has no reason to tell a truth either.

She has as much reason to tell the truth as she does to lie.

 

The lie begins with what Semirhage tells them Graendal told her.

 

As the quotes demonstrate, Graendal said no such thing.  So, when Semi tries to back up her assertion using Graendal's supposed expertise with identical cases, she lied.  All of the rest of what she asserts depends on the lie about Graendal's specious experience with those identical cases.

I didn't realize you had the transcripts of every converstaion those two had ever had in their lives. The relevant passage does not rule out Semi being aware of this condition from before the War, and aware of Graendal's failure rate with it either. The important thing in this case is the knowledge from Lanfear, about what Rand knew that he couldn't. Semi can then put it together from there.

 

Accepting that Semi told the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth is the easy answer.

 

Here's another Jordan quote:

I think I would like fans to walk away with the following. If the answer is easy, consider the possibility that you asked the wrong question.

Saying what Semi said is the truth is an easy answer. Is "Semi lied" such a difficult answer? Not really. And since when has any answer on here been "easy", given how inclined we are to argue over just about everything?

 

Probably because the answer to those questions is that he isn't destined to go suddenly and terminally nuts at all.

Good job no-one but you is claiming that he is "fated" or "destined" to go terminally nuts. Semi merely states it as a probability. And that doesn't mean he can't be of use to the Shadow before that abrupt descent into terminal madness.

[D24g0n]

Mat's memories come from the memories of people who visited the Eelfinn, at least most of them.  When Mat was being healed by the 9 sisters, i believe in TDR, he starts shouting battle orders in the old tongue.  This might or might not say that he has a reborn soul.  I know they blamed this scene and his random shouts in the old tongue on having strong Manetherin blood, but I could also see it being because he might be a reborn Manetherin military commander.  If I remember correctly, there was a Manetherin leader who liked to "toss the dice", which is eerily similar to Mat, even before he goes through the first ter'angreal mirror.

 

I didn't realize you had the transcripts of every converstaion those two had ever had in their lives. The relevant passage does not rule out Semi being aware of this condition from before the War, and aware of Graendal's failure rate with it either. The important thing in this case is the knowledge from Lanfear, about what Rand knew that he couldn't. Semi can then put it together from there.

 

Did Lanfear ever tell any of the forsaken anything about Rand?  If she didn't, there would have been no reason for Semi to put anything together.  Semi probably knew that Asmo had been teaching Rand, so any unexpected weaves that came out of Rand were probably believed to have been taught to him by Asmo.  Besides, there is nothing to say that Rand could not have rediscovered certain weaves on his own. 

[Mr Ares]

I know they blamed this scene and his random shouts in the old tongue on having strong Manetherin blood, but I could also see it being because he might be a reborn Manetherin military commander.

Why argue with the given explanation? It's Old Blood.

 

I didn't realize you had the transcripts of every converstaion those two had ever had in their lives. The relevant passage does not rule out Semi being aware of this condition from before the War, and aware of Graendal's failure rate with it either. The important thing in this case is the knowledge from Lanfear, about what Rand knew that he couldn't. Semi can then put it together from there.

Did Lanfear ever tell any of the forsaken anything about Rand?

Yes, she did. They knew that Rand knew things only LTT could know, and they knew because she told them that.

[RAND AL THOR]

I know they blamed this scene and his random shouts in the old tongue on having strong Manetherin blood, but I could also see it being because he might be a reborn Manetherin military commander.

Why argue with the given explanation? It's Old Blood.

 

This is one of the weirdest things in WOT. How can your genetic origin give you knowledge in such a way? Speaking a language merely because part of your genes are descended from past warriors? And lets not forget that your genes are not changed in any way after birth. I must say that this is not convincing at all. Unless RJ calls it 'fantasy' and then we would have to keep our mouths shut.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Mr. Ares - Unless you can point to a particular conversation that Lanfear and Semirhage had, I don't see how you can conclude that Semirhage was aware of anything Lanfear had to say about Rand.  Or, how you can conclude that she would believe anything Lanfear had to say about Rand.  Semi and Lanfear hate each other mightily.  For that matter, why would she believe any second-hand report from one of the others about what Lanfear supposedly had to say about Rand?

 

Aside from the time spent torturing Cabriana and her Warder, and the events surrounding the Cleansing, Semirhage has been entirely occupied with the Seanchan.  She doesn't make it to any of the kaffe klatches until the Prologue to LoC.  By then Lanfear is gone.  She doesn't attend another until KoD.

 

So, where did she come by this knowledge and belief in what Lanfear had to say?

 

And, again - Why did she personally run so much risk and expend such effort to capture someone whose "descent into terminal madness can be ... abrupt."

 

At least one concrete reason needed.  Not any hypothetical unspecified reason, please.

 

 

 

[RAND AL THOR]

Unless you can point to a particular conversation that Lanfear and Semirhage had, I don't see how you can conclude that Semirhage was aware of anything Lanfear had to say about Rand.

 

 

Lanfear claimed he knew things from our own age, things only Lews Therin Telamon could know.

 

That is enough I think. It is very clearly true so there is no reason to say she is lying there.

[D24g0n]

I know they blamed this scene and his random shouts in the old tongue on having strong Manetherin blood, but I could also see it being because he might be a reborn Manetherin military commander.

Why argue with the given explanation? It's Old Blood.

Well, because Mat is the only person from the Two Rivers that has randomly spoken the Old Tongue, and being born into a specific line does not give you the ability to speak a language you have never heard before.  I'm just saying it is odd.

 

Thanks Rand, I was not aware that Lanfear actually said that.

[Mr Ares]

And, again - Why did she personally run so much risk and expend such effort to capture someone whose "descent into terminal madness can be ... abrupt."

 

At least one concrete reason needed.  Not any hypothetical unspecified reason, please.

Rand has already beaten me to the relevant quote. What was her reason for going in your view, Bob? Why did she want to capture him, absent the abrupt descent into terminal madness? At least one concrete reason needed. Not any hypothetical unspecified reason, please. And why does this reason not make sense if what she said about Rand's future mental health is correct?

 

I know they blamed this scene and his random shouts in the old tongue on having strong Manetherin blood, but I could also see it being because he might be a reborn Manetherin military commander.

Why argue with the given explanation? It's Old Blood.

Well, because Mat is the only person from the Two Rivers that spoke the Old Tongue, and being born into a specific line does not give you the ability to speak a language you have never heard before. I'm just saying it is odd.

Mat has the Old Blood stronger than the others. Egwene almost understood him in EotW. Also, it is a fantasy story. If RJ wants to claim that the OP exists, time is a wheel, or that something like Mashadar could arise in his world, then we just have to accept it. But are these things more likely than something like the Old Blood?

Thanks Rand, I was not aware that Lanfear actually said that.

It's from KoD 27, the chapter when Rand captures Semi. Bob should have come across it before.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Lanfear certainly made that claim.  So what?  How does what Lanfear said in any way validate what Semirhage said?  And, how would Semirhage know what Lanfear said?

 

Semirhage sees herself as the anti-Lanfear.  Lanfear wears white so she wears black.  Lanfear favors persuasion, she favors intimidation and torture.  They don't associate. Even when they're ordered to be in the same place at the same time they avoid each other as much as possible.

 

So, how?  Graendal told her what Lanfear supposedly said?  And, somehow she believes what Graendal has to say?  From everything we see throughout the books, any time the Forsaken meet or talk, they don't believe each other even when one of them is telling the truth.  

 

We know of only two times those two have seen each other.  In LoC, Graendal was the last to arrive so there was no conversation about anything between them.  In KoD Semi spent all her free time huddled with Mesaana and Demandred whispering intently at each other about their mutual plans.

 

Nobody can hide what has happened to all of the Forsaken who have faced Rand.  Aginor and Balthamel couldn't take him.  Nor Bel'al and Ba'alzamon.  Alone, Rahvin and Sammael fared no better.  Yet, everyone keeps trying.  Why?

 

If what Semi says is true, Rand is going to go suddenly, unexpectedly, and fatally mad at any time.  That would make for insurmountable problems for the Light.  So, why are they all so intent upon removing him from where he would cause the most damage to his own cause?  Why not let him do so?  That'd solve most of the Dark's problems at no risk to themselves.

 

If somebody can come up with a good answer to that, I'll concede that she's telling the truth.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

We know of only two times those two have seen each other.  In LoC, Graendal was the last to arrive so there was no conversation about anything between them.  In KoD Semi spent all her free time huddled with Mesaana and Demandred whispering intently at each other about their mutual plans.

UNQUOTE

 

Thats because they are the bad guys, and there is an amount of suspense needed to keep readers interested. If we saw every move the bad guys made before they made it the series would suffer. Its the nature of telling a story, whether a film or book or whatever. It is necessary for some things to happen off screen. The world doesnt stop when we see things through a good guys eyes.

 

QUOTE

Semirhage sees herself as the anti-Lanfear.  Lanfear wears white so she wears black.  Lanfear favors persuasion, she favors intimidation and torture.  They don't associate. Even when they're ordered to be in the same place at the same time they avoid each other as much as possible.

 

So, how?  Graendal told her what Lanfear supposedly said?  And, somehow she believes what Graendal has to say?  From everything we see throughout the books, any time the Forsaken meet or talk, they don't believe each other even when one of them is telling the truth

UNQUOTE

 

So, because Lanfear and Semirhage hate each other means they are utterly incapable of talking to each other? Not at all. Look at Rand; he HATES Taim, yet he doesnt avoid talking to him simply because he needs to talk to him once in a while. The same can be said about the Forsaken at these meetings they have; Im pretty sure there will have had meetings off screen. I very much doubt we have seen every single time Moridin has summoned them, or Shaidar for that matter, yet it isnt possible for us to see every time the Forsaken meet as I said before because we would know too much beforehand. Look at the alliance between Demandred and Semirhage. We didnt see that form, yet we know about it, because the meeting where they formed said alliance wouldnt have been worth putting on screen.

 

QUOTE

If what Semi says is true, Rand is going to go suddenly, unexpectedly, and fatally mad at any time.  That would make for insurmountable problems for the Light.  So, why are they all so intent upon removing him from where he would cause the most damage to his own cause?  Why not let him do so?  That'd solve most of the Dark's problems at no risk to themselves.

 

If somebody can come up with a good answer to that, I'll concede that she's telling the truth

UNQUOTE

 

First of all, when Semirhage said that about Rand descending into terminal madness she looked at him as if he already had, at least thats how I saw it.

 

As for why Semirhage went for him rather than leaving him alone, there are several reasons I can think of. The Shadow obviously know how big an aid the Seanchan could be to Rand, so Semirhage went to that meeting for three reasons that I can think.

 

1) She went to kill him. Nice and simple, she thought she could do it. Although this may be going against the Dark Ones orders it has happened before where the Chosen have stepped out of line, Semirhage may have had personal reasons.

2) She went to capture him, but she wasnt expecting him to bring as many channelers with him. Maybe she wanted to present him to the Dark One, maybe she wanted him captive so more indepth plans could be employed without him interfering.

3) She went in disguise as Tuon to make him think he had succeeded, to fool him into thinking he had created an alliance with the Seanchan. This would also have been a good time for the false prophecy to have been brought in, the one about Rand kneeling before the Chrystal Throne; if Semirhage convinced Rand that was the case, then technically Rand might have ended up doing as Semirhage said, and we all know why that would benefit the Shadow.

[Lille]

Bob T Dwarf you seem to be of the oppinion that the Forsaken lies more than they speak the truth. Can you give me a couple of examples on when they are lying to each other please, just a few quotes, five or ten would suffice i think. And i mean straight out lies, not just hiding information the Aes Sedai way.

 

If all they say is lies, it would be pretty pointless showing any of their meetings.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Lille -

Not gonna dig up the quotes for you, I'll just refer to the relevant places in the books.

 

Look at anything Ba'alzamon had to say to Rand, Mat, or Perrin when he was infesting their dreams in Eye of the World.

 

Try Lanfear's assurance to Rand that all he'd have to do is bend knee to the DO one time etc., etc.

 

Try the meeting of the Gang of Four in Caemlyn at the beginning of FoH.  None of the four really believes anything any of the others have to say.  Lanfear and Graendal nearly go to war on the spot, Sam nearly offs both of them.

 

Then try the Meeting between Sam and Graendal in LoC.  He lies to her about having an understanding with Rand.  She lies to him about nearly everything.

 

RAND -

 

She went to capture him.  He brought exactly the number of AS she specified.  Are you forgetting the box full of a'dam - including a male a'dam?

 

Still waiting for somebody to tell me why, if he's just going to go suddenly and fatally bonkers, she's trying to remove him from where he'd do the most damage to his own cause when it happened.

 

She's just trying to make them see him as the monster under the bed.

 

 

 

[Guest Dreadlord]

You really think Semi went there just to put doubt in their minds? And risk being killed? Nah. Not worth it. I reckon Semirhage went to capture him or kill him, one way or the other.

[D24g0n]

You really think Semi went there just to put doubt in their minds? And risk being killed? Nah. Not worth it. I reckon Semirhage went to capture him or kill him, one way or the other.

 

She went to capture him.  He brought exactly the number of AS she specified.  Are you forgetting the box full of a'dam - including a male a'dam?

I think Bob is saying Semi went there to capture Rand, and since she failed she is now trying to make the most of the situation by putting doubt into Rand's followers.  He wants to know WHY Semi wants to capture him, he is not saying she didn't try to.

[Guest Dreadlord]

You didnt quote all of his passage

 

QUOTING BOB T DWARF

She went to capture him.  He brought exactly the number of AS she specified.  Are you forgetting the box full of a'dam - including a male a'dam?

 

Still waiting for somebody to tell me why, if he's just going to go suddenly and fatally bonkers, she's trying to remove him from where he'd do the most damage to his own cause when it happened.

 

She's just trying to make them see him as the monster under the bedUNQUOTE

 

While Rand is of course supposed to be a danger to his own as Bob said, people seem to forget he is teh Champion of the Light and I find it laughable that people dont understand why any Forsaken would want to capture him. THEY COULD TURN HIM TO THE DARK AGAINST HIS WILL.

[Bob T Dwarf]

That's precisely what I'm saying.

 

Semirhage set up that whole charade to capture Rand.  She obviously figured she could handle shielding him, and the sul'dam and damane could handle his 'so-called Aes Sedai.'  She brought enough a'dam to collar all of them.

 

Now she claims he's already 'insane' and that even Graendal couldn't cure what ails him and that he will descend into 'terminal madness' abruptly.

 

If that's true, why didn't she just stand back and let it happen?  Who knows what form such 'terminal madness' might take?  He might pull another mountain down on his head like last time.  That could be pretty dodgy for anyone within, oh,say 20 miles or so.  Might wipe out most of the top echelon of the forces of the Light.

 

But, nope, saintly, magnanimous Semirhage wants to take the lunatic safely away from all those other nice people who would love to kill her.  Aint she swell?

 

Ummm... Dreadlord... what good would that do?  He's going to abruptly descend into terminal madness, remember.  If the Dark has him, they'd be the ones who suffered the collateral damage.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

If that's true, why didn't she just stand back and let it happen?

UNQUOTE

 

TO TURN HIM TO THE SHADOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

If you can either let someone be a danger to you AS WELL as his own, or JUST his own, what would you choose? Without Rand, the Light has no chance. Turn him to the Shadow, and it doesnt matter if he goes terminally insane, because even before he does his sane efforts will be aimed at the Light.

 

AT the moment Rand is a considerable threat now more than ever. A weapon of immense power, but that weapon has the chance of striking its ellies rather than its enemies, albeit a small chance. If they turned him, it would be the other way round, and the Shadow need only be wary of the times he looses it rather than his concentrated plans. If Rand worked for the Shadow, it would be SOOOOOOOOOOOO GOD DAMNED SIMPLE for the Shadow. Send Rand to kill Perrin. End of

[Mr Ares]

We know of only two times those two have seen each other.

How many times have they met that we don't know about? Why assume that the only meetings we have seen are the only ones that have happened?

 

If what Semi says is true, Rand is going to go suddenly, unexpectedly, and fatally mad at any time.  That would make for insurmountable problems for the Light.  So, why are they all so intent upon removing him from where he would cause the most damage to his own cause?  Why not let him do so?  That'd solve most of the Dark's problems at no risk to themselves.

 

If somebody can come up with a good answer to that, I'll concede that she's telling the truth.

Here is a simple and elegant solution: they may know he is going mad but they don't know when he will go mad. It's not much good for them if he wins the Last Battle, kills them all and then goes mad 10 minutes later. If they sit back and don't face him, he'll just keep winning all his other battles, right up till TG - when he wins, kills them all, etc. If they can take him out, they win.

[RAND AL THOR]

Why does Semi say    He is insane      when he very clearly isn't?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Why assume there have been meetings we haven't been shown?  The Forsaken ALL hate each other's guts.  They desire with a deep purple passion to kill each other in the most horrible ways imaginable.  They can't be in the same location for more than a few seconds before the knives come out.

 

It is only the most wishful thinking that has them discussing anything, at any time, in any rational or civilized manner.  In short, they don't get together and decide what to wear.  They don't have happy little study groups.  They don't compare notes.  Knowledge is power, and they each want ALL of the power.  They plot and they scheme and they try their utmost to throw banana peels under each other's feet at any opportunity.

 

Besides which, as I said before, Semi has had her hands full with the Seanchan.  She simply hasn't been around.

 

Part of the whole concept of "abrupt" is that it cannot be forecast.  You don't see it coming, that's why it's abrupt.  The ground just drops away from under your feet.

 

And, if Semi is right, that's what she's setting herself up for.  One second everything is fine, Rand is a nice tame little dragon on a leash, and the next instant she's trying to figure out whether dragons have navels and how you see out of one if they do.

 

She's telling bogeyman stories to frighten the children.

 

 

 

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

Why does Semi say He is insane when he very clearly isn't

UNQUOTE

Rand can hardly be said to be fully sane. With the ammount of tainted saidin he has channeled before the Cleansing, on top of his duty eating away at him and him beating himself up about the hundreds of women that have died for him, I would say he isnt fully sane.

 

Remember all the talk of Callandor amplifying the effects of the Taint? If the Taint hadnt affected Rands sanity, he wouldnt lose it when he wielded Callandor; aparantly it encourages the wildness of the mind, something Rand wouldnt suffer from at all if his sanity was intact, since sane people dont show any signs of wildness of the mind.

 

Regardless of the cause, Rand isnt sane. He may be only slightly insane or very insane, but either way, he isnt 100% sane, and judging by the evidence of 11 books even if he was 1% insane tahts enough