LTT -Level of Insanity!

[anamul]

OK. I was just wondering if RJ explained the fact that LTT in Rand's head appeared to be "insane". Why?

 

It apparent that LTT's state of mind in Rand's head is as same when LTT died.

I mean LTT"s state of mind in Rand's head could very well be as sane as he was in AOL or prior ot the Strike at Shyol Ghul.

 

LTT reborn(Rand) isn't insane. But his voice inside Rand head is. Also, why did Rand hear LTT's voice? The prophecy doesn't mention of the voice. Only the fact that LTT will be reborn.

 

In more than one ways, the voice in Rand's head is very troublesome.Also it seems LTT could hear voice as well...of another one. Did LTT in his lifetime heard voices of his past life? It seems so. Then if it is a prerequisite to hear the voice that contains the state of mind of a person during his death,could it possibly be that LTT was benefited from the experiance of his prior life? I mean imagin having experiance of a life time at 20 year age? Is that why LTT was so good as a Leader. Is that how he rose to highest pinnacle...as Lord of the Morning.

 

Question and question....I hope LTT's mind dillema will be made clear by Semi or Grendal in AMOL.

[Guest Dreadlord]

I believe Semirhage made this clear in KoD, when she said that the madness Rand is suffering from created a real connection to his past life, a connection that makes him hear a voice that is real. She worded it very specifically that the real voice was a symptom of Rands madness; the fact that the voice is real doesn't mean he isn't mad, it means he is. There has been many discussions on whether or not Semirhage was lying to make Rands followers doubt him, but I think she told the truth, simply because everything she did say we have seen, as well as it being backed up by the things Cadsuane says. I can see this thread turning into another debate about whether or not Semirhage was lying. I hope it doesnt.

 

As for Lews Therin hearing a voice, I have noted that myself. But, considering that many times Lews Therin says things like "I killed Ishamael," and "Why can't I move my hands," when looking through Rands eyes, I simply think Lews Therin has begun to think he is in control of Rands body and that Rands thoughts are "a voice in his head" whereas obviously we know it to be the other way round. Lews Therin thinks he is alive and that Rands thoughts is the voice of a dead man, or at least thats how it seems to me.

[maximuswynn]

All I want to add to the previous reply is that specifically the taint  has made a ripple between Rand's soul and the soul of LT who has inevitably been reborn. Rand's soul isn't the same and there is only one soul in Rand's body, but the remnant of LT has been freed due to the taint and it seems as if there are two.

[Spirit1025]

I simply think Lews Therin has begun to think he is in control of Rands body and that Rands thoughts are "a voice in his head" whereas obviously we know it to be the other way round. Lews Therin thinks he is alive and that Rands thoughts is the voice of a dead man, or at least thats how it seems to me.

 

I agree completely. Take for example the fight between Rand and Lews Therin over control of saidin. Lews has occasionally been successful in taking control away from Rand, or even seizing saidin by himself.

 

All I want to add to the previous reply is that specifically the taint  has made a ripple between Rand's soul and the soul of LT who has inevitably been reborn. Rand's soul isn't the same and there is only one soul in Rand's body, but the remnant of LT has been freed due to the taint and it seems as if there are two.

 

I've never heard of any connection between Lews Therin's voice and the taint. Do you have any more specific evidence to support the idea? Wouldn't this same effect happen to any male channeler who had been previously incarnated?

 

[maximuswynn]

Yes, but it's the Dragon we're talking about. And even Semirhage stated that madmen hear voices, who can say they aren't communications with past lives. Even Jordan stated that the taint has profound properties. Let me say this once again but simpler, cause I think it cam out wrong before, sorry for that.Every person ahs one soul thhat is reborn with every death. However, that reborn soul carries the essence and memories of its past experiences yet they are shielded from the present events and personality. The taint weakens that shield and allows past lives to mingle with present and results in hearing voices from past rebirths. Tha's what's happening to Rand more or less.

[Avery]

All I want to add to the previous reply is that specifically the taint  has made a ripple between Rand's soul and the soul of LT who has inevitably been reborn. Rand's soul isn't the same and there is only one soul in Rand's body, but the remnant of LT has been freed due to the taint and it seems as if there are two.

 

It's the same soul. The LTT voice is actually another personality of the same soul. A bridge has been created between the personalities by Rand's particular type of madness. The body responds to the personality, and since there are 2 personalities within Rand that are aware (well, one is aware, one is at least nearly aware), Rand can lose control to LTT.

 

I've never heard of any connection between Lews Therin's voice and the taint. Do you have any more specific evidence to support the idea? Wouldn't this same effect happen to any male channeler who had been previously incarnated?

 

Technically the taint isn't directly causing Rand's access to a past personality. The taint is causing the madness, and Rand's particular type of madness (like there are different kinds of the same disease) is causing the LTT personality to come forward. Since there are other kinds of madness, not every channeler do hear voices of their past lives. However, since there are a lot of symptoms of madness, it's possible hearing past lives is common, but how would one know? The Rand/LTT soul is the only one we know is reborn.

 

Also it seems LTT could hear voice as well...of another one. Did LTT in his lifetime heard voices of his past life?

 

Does he? The only evidence that I'm aware of is LTT referring to another person is after Rand balefire-links with Moridin. Until the Strike, LTT was sane. The final state of LTT's personality (very much mad) was what was "saved" to the soul, as one would expect, so that's what Rand hears.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

Yes, but it's the Dragon we're talking about. And even Semirhage stated that madmen hear voices, who can say they aren't communications with past lives. Even Jordan stated that the taint has profound properties. Let me say this once again but simpler, cause I think it cam out wrong before, sorry for that.Every person ahs one soul thhat is reborn with every death. However, that reborn soul carries the essence and memories of its past experiences yet they are shielded from the present events and personality. The taint weakens that shield and allows past lives to mingle with present and results in hearing voices from past rebirths. Tha's what's happening to Rand more or less.

UNQUOTE

 

I disagree. The Taint caused this rare type of madness in Rands case, yet it is obvious that the rare type of madness isn't by any means unique to the Taint. I say this because, as Semirhage said, Graendal was the expert. Graendal must have encountered people with this past life connection in the Age of Legends and figured it out then; as soon as the Taint came into effect she was imprisoned with the rest of the Forsaken and so she couldn't possibly have studied anyone suffering from the Taint until as early as Eye of the World, ie 3000 years after the Age of Legends. She must have encountered people with the same madness as Rand before she was bound, and from that we can gather that the Taint isn't the only thing that causes it.

 

With madness in Wheel of time it seems there are many grey areas, no definite rules. The Taint CAN cause this connection, but it can be caused by any type of madness and is very rare. Otherwise, we would surely have hundreds of black-clad Ashaman talking with the guy they used to be. Granted, the Taint no longer exists, but the Ashaman do EVERYTHING with the Power and judging how long they were doing that for before the Taint was removed I would guess that many of them would be talking with their past lives by now if that type of madness was specifically caused by the Taint.

[Tara_Manier_Sedai]

Does anyone know if the LTT in Rand's head has anything to do with various people calling Rand Lews Therin?  Think about it; Birgitte was ripped from T'A'R as one of the heros tied to the horn, but she mentions never being able to remember her past experiences once she was spun out by the wheel.  However, in the battle at Falme, which was before he started hearing LTT in his head, the heros of the horn called him Lews Therin.  Being stuck in T'A'R, it's a very small chance that they knew he was the Dragon Reborn.  Might this have anything to do with him possibly having been tied to the Wheel like the heros of the horn?

[brothermoose]

With madness in Wheel of time it seems there are many grey areas, no definite rules. The Taint CAN cause this connection, but it can be caused by any type of madness and is very rare. Otherwise, we would surely have hundreds of black-clad Ashaman talking with the guy they used to be. Granted, the Taint no longer exists, but the Ashaman do EVERYTHING with the Power and judging how long they were doing that for before the Taint was removed I would guess that many of them would be talking with their past lives by now if that type of madness was specifically caused by the Taint.

 

I don't think this is true as a proof of the rarity of hearing past voices due to the taint.  It is stated many times throughout the series that only certain special individual souls are reincarnated time after time by the wheel.  Rand is one of these souls, hence the chance that he even could have past personalities connected to his current incarnation.  It is a safe bet that the majority of the Ashaman are not among the few souls who are infinitely reincarnated, therefore wouldn't be able to do so even if the taint guaranteed such a connection.

 

As TMS refers to in her post, and Birgitte mentions in T'A'R', those souls that are spun out by the wheel time and again wait in T'A'R' to be reincarnated.  It leads to reason that the heroes and LTT were chillin' in T'A'R' until the time of Rand's birth on Dragonmount.  This also explains why the heroes recognized him.

 

edit: I just wanted to say hi to everyone as this is my first post.  Didn't think it deserved its own thread, and I had to jump in on this one.  This site and its members have been invaluable in filling the space between books.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

I don't think this is true as a proof of the rarity of hearing past voices due to the taint.  It is stated many times throughout the series that only certain special individual souls are reincarnated time after time by the wheel.  Rand is one of these souls, hence the chance that he even could have past personalities connected to his current incarnation.  It is a safe bet that the majority of the Ashaman are not among the few souls who are infinitely reincarnated, therefore wouldn't be able to do so even if the taint guaranteed such a connection

UNQUOTE

 

If thats true then I would assume that Graendal would know about it as she would have learned the names of the past lives of those she studied, and if she knew that I would have thought she would have told Semirhage in the discussion they obviously had about madness. I cant see it being the case if Im honest.

[Mr Ares]

It is stated many times throughout the series that only certain special individual souls are reincarnated time after time by the wheel.

All souls are reborn, but the Heroes are the only ones reborn for a specific purpose. They are the only ones that wait in T'a'r, but all other souls have an afterlife and are eventually reborn.

 

So, Rand is mad, with a rare form of madness that allows him to hear the voice of a past life, this has been caused at least in part by the Taint, although the Taint causes madness it doesn't cause any specific sort of madness so not hearing about this from anyone else is hardly a shock.

[CUBAREY]

, Rand is mad, with a rare form of madness that allows him to hear the voice of a past life, this has been caused at least in part by the Taint, although the Taint causes madness it doesn't cause any specific sort of madness so not hearing about this from anyone else is hardly a shock.

 

But is Rand really mad at the end of KOD? He heres a voice, true but itsd a real voice. That Semi says this is a sign of madness is at best problematic, she is a Forsaken after all. And while Rand is otherwise conflicted what signs of real madness do we see? None really. Thus while the taint may cause madness, and Rand has exhibited other signs of being exposed to the taint (the nausia when he takes hold of the power) there is no real proof that the taint has effected his ability to reason (which is what madness is).

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

But is Rand really mad at the end of KOD? He heres a voice, true but itsd a real voice. That Semi says this is a sign of madness is at best problematic, she is a Forsaken after all. And while Rand is otherwise conflicted what signs of real madness do we see? None really. Thus while the taint may cause madness, and Rand has exhibited other signs of being exposed to the taint (the nausia when he takes hold of the power) there is no real proof that the taint has effected his ability to reason (which is what madness is).

UNQUOTE

 

Oh my God its like the Forsaken are incapable of telling the truth. Why is it that people dont believe anything they say, simply because they are Forsaken? Of course they are scheming, manipulating, devious, untrustworthy, but in the end they are still human, they are capable of telling the truth.

 

Moridin: My name is Moridin.

 

DONT BELIEVE HIM! HE IS FORSAKEN!

 

Moridin: I am Ishamael reincarnated.

 

I could have sworn he WAS Ishamael reincarnated, but obviously because he said it we know now it isnt true, because he is Forsaken, and they never tell the truth do they? Jesus, its as if they have taken oaths on an Oath Rod to always lie.

 

How can you say Semirhage wasnt telling the truth? Every word has been proven right by what we have seen of Rand. She was revealing Rands real mental situation so people would doubt him. Note that in that scene Rand doesnt deny anything she says, doesnt argue with her, he just listens. And dont try saying "He was shocked from having his hand burnt off" because he was over that before he even stood up.

 

QUOTE

And while Rand is otherwise conflicted what signs of real madness do we see? None really

UNQUOTE

 

None really?!?! Ok, when Taim first turns up and hands a seal to Rand, Rand hears Lews Therin muttering in his head. And before Rand knows it, he has the seal above his head and is saying to himself "Must break, must break." Judging from the fact that Rand knows what the seals are and that he is trying to keep the seals in one piece, what other explanation is there for Rands behaviour in that scene other than madness? Lews Therin did NOT take control of him then, Rand was doing it, subconsciously. Losing control of himself, a sign of madness.

 

Another example is when Rand is striking at the Seanchan with Callandor. He strikes with lightening, he gives the whole "You cannot strike at me! I am teh Dragon Reborn!" and when he gets a grip on himself he realises he is shooting lightening in every direction. He didnt know he was doing it until Bashere made him think. Losing control of himself, a sign of madness.

 

There are many types of madness, and the inability to reason isnt the only symptom of madness. I feel that when I am reading Rands PoVs later in the books sometimes you can see there are a few screws loose. Am I the only person that can se this?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Rand has more problems than it's useful to catalog.

 

What I, and maybe some others object to, is the willingness you and others have to lump all of them together and point to that lump as some kind of proof of madness.  And, fatal madness at that.

 

We're talking about a 20 year old kid here.  One who's had the weight and the fate of a world if not the whole universe thrust upon him.  With no preparation.  With nothing but obstruction and manipulation aimed at him everywhere he looks.  He's been nearly mortally wounded twice.  Those wounds don't heal.  They are so painful that everyone who delves him can't believe he can even remain conscious let alone stand up and function.

 

He's now had a hand blown off and his vision wrecked besides.  But, that's not enough.

 

Nope, you guys gotta freight him with impending fatal insanity besides.  And, just because Semirhage says so.  Sure, a few things she said jibe with what we know, but does that mean everything she said is true?

 

I wouldn't bet my bippy on it.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

Rand has more problems than it's useful to catalog.

 

What I, and maybe some others object to, is the willingness you and others have to lump all of them together and point to that lump as some kind of proof of madness.  And, fatal madness at that.

 

We're talking about a 20 year old kid here.  One who's had the weight and the fate of a world if not the whole universe thrust upon him.  With no preparation.  With nothing but obstruction and manipulation aimed at him everywhere he looks.  He's been nearly mortally wounded twice.  Those wounds don't heal.  They are so painful that everyone who delves him can't believe he can even remain conscious let alone stand up and function.

 

He's now had a hand blown off and his vision wrecked besides.  But, that's not enough.

 

Nope, you guys gotta freight him with impending fatal insanity besides.  And, just because Semirhage says so.  Sure, a few things she said jibe with what we know, but does that mean everything she said is true?

UNQUOTE

 

I wasnt implying that his insanity is fatal, I was simply pointing out signs of his insanity because Cubarey said he hadnt shown signs of madness. The cause of his insanity wasnt the important part.

 

With respect to the part I highlighted, Semirhages source of the information was Graendal, who was known for curing afflictions of the mind. Since she identifies Rands madness I see no reason not to believe her.

 

I remember when I read the passage where Semirhage explained the situation with Lews Therin, I thought "brilliant. RJ found a place to clear it up, to explain whats going on." There is more reason to believe her than not. The possibility that she might be lying just because she is Forsaken just isnt enough to go on judging by how accurate her comments were to what we see of Rand and Lews Therin.

[D24g0n]

None really?!?! Ok, when Taim first turns up and hands a seal to Rand, Rand hears Lews Therin muttering in his head. And before Rand knows it, he has the seal above his head and is saying to himself "Must break, must break." Judging from the fact that Rand knows what the seals are and that he is trying to keep the seals in one piece, what other explanation is there for Rands behaviour in that scene other than madness? Lews Therin did NOT take control of him then, Rand was doing it, subconsciously. Losing control of himself, a sign of madness.

I disagree, I think it is totally plausible for it to have been Lews Therin taking control.  Lews Therin usually tries to take control of saidin every time Rand gets near an Asah'man.  So I see the two actions as being very similar.

 

Another example is when Rand is striking at the Seanchan with Callandor. He strikes with lightening, he gives the whole "You cannot strike at me! I am teh Dragon Reborn!" and when he gets a grip on himself he realises he is shooting lightening in every direction. He didnt know he was doing it until Bashere made him think. Losing control of himself, a sign of madness.

Cadsuane tells Rand that Callandor magnifies the taint when used without being linked with a woman.  Rand also feels like he can do anything while wielding Callandor.  Illusions of power + a heavy dose of taint = very bad.

 

There is no way to prove if Semi lied or not, but the best lies contain at least some truth.  I'm not saying the Forsaken can't tell the truth, but they do try to gain every advantage with everything they do.

[Bob T Dwarf]

QUOTE

I wasnt implying that his insanity is fatal, I was simply pointing out signs of his insanity because Cubarey said he hadnt shown signs of madness. The cause of his insanity wasnt the important part.

 

With respect to the part I highlighted, Semirhages source of the information was Graendal, who was known for curing afflictions of the mind. Since she identifies Rands madness I see no reason not to believe her.

 

I remember when I read the passage where Semirhage explained the situation with Lews Therin, I thought "brilliant. RJ found a place to clear it up, to explain whats going on." There is more reason to believe her than not. The possibility that she might be lying just because she is Forsaken just isnt enough to go on judging by how accurate her comments were to what we see of Rand and Lews Therin.

 

By believing what Semirhage said you are actually stating, not just implying, that his madness is fatal, BECAUSE that is what she says... "I understand that the descent into terminal madness can be... abrupt."

 

Then you believe that:

1.  Her source is Graendal.

2.  What she reports is actually what Graendal said.

3.  That Graendal is always right.

 

It's at least as likely that her real source is her own very fertile imagination.  That Graendal never said any such thing, because neither of them is the sort to get together and chitchat.  And, that IF Graendal ever encountered a case anything like what Semi describes that she'd be any better at treating it than anyone else, or that Graendal's results would represent the very best that medicine has in store.

 

I find it more likely that she made an educated guess and constructed a doomsday scenario around it.  Her specialty is psychological warfare, and this is just her opening salvo in that facet of the war.

 

 

 

[Guest Dreadlord]

Believe what you want Bob you just make stuff up as you go along. I prefer to go off what we see in the books myself

[Mik]

Believe what you want Bob you just make stuff up as you go along. I prefer to go off what we see in the books myself

Bob is doing exactly that; he's putting Semi's words into perspective, taking into account what we read in the books about the Chosen, their thoughts & behaviour.

 

In nearly every 'Chosen-meeting', they are all manouvering for position by mis-information, lies, harrasment, etc.

IMO, Bob isn't making stuff up, he's looking at it from the right perspective.

 

______________________________________________

EDIT:

 

From my own notes on ..err... certain theories:

Lanfear’s dark eyes glittered for a moment before she regained control of herself. “He may be Lews Therin reborn, but he is not Lews Therin himself.”

 

“How do you know?” Graendal asked, smiling as if it were all a joke. “It may well be that, as many believe, all are born and reborn as the Wheel turns, but nothing like this has ever happened that I have read. A specific man reborn according to prophecy. Who knows what he is?”

(TFoH, Prologue - The First Sparks Fall)

 

Whether the boy was a simple farm lad or Lews Therin himself truly come back— she [Graendal] could not make up her mind on that—he had proven himself far too dangerous.

  (LoC, Chapter 6 - Threads Woven of Shadow)

 

The above quotes show that Graendals own thoughts on this subject -"a healer of the mind beyond compare" (TWoRJTWoT, Chapter 6 – Semirhage)- are a good hint that Semirhage is lying.

 

Also... Rand is not hearing a 'voice from the past' or from a past life. He's sharing his body & soul with another mind. There's a huge difference.

[Guest Dreadlord]

I simply cant believe she was lying. Everything Semi said in KoD has too much evidence to back it up. When I first read it I thought she was being very clever, by not denying who she was and rather than witholding information she told them a truth they would rather not have been told. She offers a perfect explanation for everything we have seen and to say she was lying just because she is Forsaken just seems like ignoring a chance RJ saw to clear things up.

 

Im not guna bother with this discussion any more I just cant see how people dont believe a perfect explanation for something we have seen throughout pretty much the whole series.

[Lille]

I believe Graendal did say something about Rands madness and hearing LTT voice in his head. I think its from Demandreds POV on a forsaken meeting, cant remember what chapter or even what book it is now tho. But he thinks something along the lines of what Semi said, that graendal said something about a real voice.

[RAND AL THOR]

I am not going to get involved in this. This exact arguement was present on another thread and it was never resolved.

However, I would like to point out an incorrect statement:

 

 

 

By believing what Semirhage said you are actually stating, not just implying, that his madness is fatal, BECAUSE that is what she says... "I understand that the descent into terminal madness can be... abrupt."

 

 

Falling into terminal madness abrutply does not mean you are going to die.

It means you may become 100% mad at very short notice.

 

Dictionary definition of terminal:

 

situated at or forming the end or extremity of something OR occurring at or forming the end of a series, succession, or the like

 

Dictionary definition of fatal:

 

causing or capable of causing death; mortal; deadly

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

The definition for terminal, specifically in regard to disease is the following:

occurring at or causing the end of life: a terminal disease.

 

Since Semi is offering a supposed medical diagnosis, this would seem to be the definition that best fits the circumstance.  "Terminal madness" would then indeed be the  immediate cause of death.

 

Thank you Mik, perspective on the overall situation is indeed what I am trying to offer.  Those quotes are excellent.  This one in particular:

“How do you know?” Graendal asked, smiling as if it were all a joke. “It may well be that, as many believe, all are born and reborn as the Wheel turns, but nothing like this has ever happened that I have read. A specific man reborn according to prophecy. Who knows what he is?”

 

From Graendal's own mouth - she's never even read about anything similar to what Semirhage describes to Rand and his entourage.  Graendal isn't even willing to offer an opinion on what Rand is or what that might mean.

 

Semi is making it up as she goes along, guys.  She'll likely have even more fearsome things to say in the future.  And those will be equally specious.

 

 

[Mysterious]

Nice work Bob  ;D

 

It just didn't feel right to take Semi at face value.

 

 

 

 

Mysterious

[anamul]

Bob has a strong point here. I am more inclined to believe that to some degree Semi is lying. To sell a lie you have to tell some very convincing truth first. By not denying who she is, she was trying to appear truthfull in other's eye so that she can sell the big lie.

 

As for terminal madness, well every male channeler is falling into madness and more often than not it is happening. So her statment on this however is meaningless.

 

What Rand hearing is a true voice and that makes the difference. Her statment that the voice he hears is real make to worst, doesn't have a valid point. Because, it proves to some degree that he isn't mad in a conventional way.

Semi will only succed due to less of communication on Rand and Cady's part.

 

I am not judging her word negatively because she is a forsaken. But because I find her explanation spitefull,inadequate and highly motivated.

 

"Fall to terminal madness can be abrupt"...ha..tell me something I don't know already Semi.

 

And yeah, "NICE WORK BOB". Thanx for the quote.