Was Latra Posae Decume a Darkfriend/Forsaken

[Hybrid]

You raise some good points.  To answer your question, I would take action over no action almost every time.  If I had a choice between a risky maneuver and sitting on my butt waiting for my enemy to make a massive blunder, I would take the risky choice 90% of the time.  I would wait for my enemy to make a mistake if and only if that enemy had a history of past mistakes.  Did the Shadow have a history of past mistakes?  No.  They had steadily taken over the world, destroyed the utopian society of the Age of Legends, and recruited some of the most powerful figures of the Light to the Shadow.  Their commanding officer, at the highest level, was the Dark One, an godlike being who is near omniscient and omnipotent if not for the Bore.  Their chief generals, Sammael, Bel'al, and Demandred, were among the Light's finest.  They had Semirhage and Graendal, masters of torture and compulsion, respectively.  They had Moghedien, a master of spying and Tel'aran'rhiod.  They had Lanfear and Ishamael, among the strongest channelers of their respective genders.  They had Aginor, a brilliant scientist responsible for the mass-production of disposable soldiers and minor officers.  In addition, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, the Light had made barely any territory advances.  The overall trend was heavily slated towards defeat.  The Light was fighting a losing battle from the start.

 

It wasn't a losing battle from the beginning, to quote the guide

 

"The War of Shadow was a seesaw affair. In the first three years, large parts of the world fell under the Dark One's dominion, however indirectly, through human representatives. Over the next four years under Lews Therin's leadership, much of the territory was retaken, though not without reverses. At that point a stalemate was reached which lasted nearly a year. Then the Shadow began to advance again, slowly at first but with increasing speed. According to the unknown writer of the fragmentary historical record, It was as if with every step forward by the Shadow, disorder and chaos grew, and feeding on that, the Shadow gained strength, so that it's next stride was longer, and the next after longer still."

 

 

Thank you.  I stand corrected.  In any case, the battle had become a losing affair, and there was little hope for victory.

[GreenStarLight]

I've looked over the relevant posts, and it seems as if no-one's brought up the certain points in the following.

Also: can't find any guidelines on how old old a thread is before you shouldn't post on it any more, and some of these acronyms need adding to the "If you are new....WELCOME! (READ THIS FIRST)" thread.

 

Having just read "The Strike at Shayol Ghul" a couple of alarm bells went off at the last footnote.

 

[ 4 ] Before her death during the Breaking (which cannot be specified from the evidence of the manuscript, unfortunately either as to time or place), Latra Posae apparently rose to a prominence which rivaled that of Lews Therin before her. During the fighting aginst the Shadowsworn before the Breaking put an end to what by that time seemed inconsequential by comparison, she gained the name Shadar Nor, best translated as "Cutter of the Shadow" or perhaps "Slicer of the Shadow" (the difficulties of precise translation from the Old Tongue, with all its multiple meanings, will always remain with us). It is thus ironic that no other document yet discovered so much as mentions her name or acomplishments. Perhaps this will serve to restore Latra Posae Decume to her proper place in history.

 

Bell One: Latra Posae rises to prominence; which side, or whether she replaced Lews Therin as a light side leader is not mentioned.

 

Bell Two: Shadar Nor, with direct reference to difficulty in translation. As likely it could mean "Shadow's Sword"?

 

Bell Three: "no other document yet discovered so much as mentions her name or acomplishments." Sounds like a Hall cover-up to me.

 

Bell Four: Possibly reading too much into no mention of her death, it is not un-possible she's still alive, or that her death was part of the hall's 'clean-and-cover-up'.

 

And then there is the points made by others about her actions. Fear is a fantastic motivator, and Lews Therin's plan was very risky, but it worked even without the Aes Sedai, which included women he'd rather not get killed. And her plan was also risky as it was possible for the the ter'angreal to fall into the shadow's grasp (as they almost did), or for the destruction of the world following their misguided (circle with her leading) use:

 

This project had its detractors, too, for the sa'angreal were planned to be so powerful that either one might well provide enough of the One Power to destroy the world, while both together certainly would

 

which I remember as being the ultimate goal of the Shadow?

 

Not saying she most definitely is a Darkfriend/Forsaken, but the writing certainly left enough space for her to have been (and being so close to the end I doubt we'll get any more evidence either way).

 

Of course, this is entirely based upon which side Latra fought following the sealing. If there's any evidence she fought on the Light side elsewhere, I haven't seen it :)

[Suttree]

And then there is the points made by others about her actions. Fear is a fantastic motivator, and Lews Therin's plan was very risky, but it worked even without the Aes Sedai,

 

and it's a good thing the female AS weren't involved, per RJ Saidin would have been tainted as well. LTT's plan was flawed.

 

LPD helped hold the world together "fighting against the shadowsworn" during the Breaking, there is zero evidence that she was secretly working for the DO.

[GreenStarLight]

And then there is the points made by others about her actions. Fear is a fantastic motivator, and Lews Therin's plan was very risky, but it worked even without the Aes Sedai,

 

and it's a good thing the female AS weren't involved, per RJ Saidin would have been tainted as well. LTT's plan was flawed.

 

LPD helped hold the world together "fighting against the shadowsworn" during the Breaking, there is zero evidence that she was secretly working for the DO.

 

I've seen several people quote "LPD helped hold the world together "fighting against the shadowsworn" during the Breaking", where is this quoted from? is there another source than the strike at shayol ghul?

[Suttree]

And then there is the points made by others about her actions. Fear is a fantastic motivator, and Lews Therin's plan was very risky, but it worked even without the Aes Sedai,

 

and it's a good thing the female AS weren't involved, per RJ Saidin would have been tainted as well. LTT's plan was flawed.

 

LPD helped hold the world together "fighting against the shadowsworn" during the Breaking, there is zero evidence that she was secretly working for the DO.

 

I've seen several people quote "LPD helped hold the world together "fighting against the shadowsworn" during the Breaking", where is this quoted from? is there another source than the strike at shayol ghul?

 

another source isn't needed, from the footnote you provided....

 

During the fighting against the Shadowsworn before the Breaking put an end to what by that time seemed inconsequential by comparison, she gained the name Shadar Nor,

 

There is no need to come up with alternate meanings for Shadar Nor when we are given two that fit with what the document tells us she did, fight against the "Shadowsworn".

[GreenStarLight]

to me, tainting seems inconsequential to annihilation. also, tainting was an unknown consequence, one that might be necessary to drive the dark one back. her plan was temporary, and incomplete:

 

that used together they would provide sufficient Power to drive the Shadow's forces back, to defeat them completely and erect a barrier around Shayol Ghul until a safe method of dealing with the Bore was assured.

Detractors pointed out that the Bore had enlarged since it was first drilled, and behind the barricade erected by the sa'angreal it would continue to grow, so that eventually the Dark One might free himself within the barrier. The barrier might well contain the Dark One when all he could do was reach through the relatively small Bore, but could it hold back the Dark One let loose?

[GreenStarLight]

And then there is the points made by others about her actions. Fear is a fantastic motivator, and Lews Therin's plan was very risky, but it worked even without the Aes Sedai,

 

and it's a good thing the female AS weren't involved, per RJ Saidin would have been tainted as well. LTT's plan was flawed.

 

LPD helped hold the world together "fighting against the shadowsworn" during the Breaking, there is zero evidence that she was secretly working for the DO.

 

I've seen several people quote "LPD helped hold the world together "fighting against the shadowsworn" during the Breaking", where is this quoted from? is there another source than the strike at shayol ghul?

 

another source isn't needed, from the footnote you provided....

 

During the fighting against the Shadowsworn before the Breaking put an end to what by that time seemed inconsequential by comparison, she gained the name Shadar Nor,

 

There is no need to come up with alternate meanings for Shadar Nor when we are given two that fit with what the document tells us she did, fight against the "Shadowsworn".

 

surely i'm not the only one who can see that that line could be interpreted with her fighting on either side?

[Suttree]

And then there is the points made by others about her actions. Fear is a fantastic motivator, and Lews Therin's plan was very risky, but it worked even without the Aes Sedai,

 

and it's a good thing the female AS weren't involved, per RJ Saidin would have been tainted as well. LTT's plan was flawed.

 

LPD helped hold the world together "fighting against the shadowsworn" during the Breaking, there is zero evidence that she was secretly working for the DO.

 

I've seen several people quote "LPD helped hold the world together "fighting against the shadowsworn" during the Breaking", where is this quoted from? is there another source than the strike at shayol ghul?

 

another source isn't needed, from the footnote you provided....

 

During the fighting against the Shadowsworn before the Breaking put an end to what by that time seemed inconsequential by comparison, she gained the name Shadar Nor,

 

There is no need to come up with alternate meanings for Shadar Nor when we are given two that fit with what the document tells us she did, fight against the "Shadowsworn".

 

surely i'm not the only one who can see that that line could be interpreted with her fighting on either side?

 

In my years on DM this is the first time I've seen it put forth.

 

Someone on the side of the shadow would not rise to "prominence that rivaled LTT", she wouldn't be called "cutter of shadow/slicer of shadow" and most importantly she wouldn't gain the name fighting "against the Shadowsworn". Occam's Razor my friend.

 

Btw Saidin being tainted as well=annihilation. LPD and the female AS are the only thing that held the world together. If men and women had been running rampant with no one to stop them the world would already be destroyed.

[GreenStarLight]

And then there is the points made by others about her actions. Fear is a fantastic motivator, and Lews Therin's plan was very risky, but it worked even without the Aes Sedai,

 

and it's a good thing the female AS weren't involved, per RJ Saidin would have been tainted as well. LTT's plan was flawed.

 

LPD helped hold the world together "fighting against the shadowsworn" during the Breaking, there is zero evidence that she was secretly working for the DO.

 

I've seen several people quote "LPD helped hold the world together "fighting against the shadowsworn" during the Breaking", where is this quoted from? is there another source than the strike at shayol ghul?

 

another source isn't needed, from the footnote you provided....

 

During the fighting against the Shadowsworn before the Breaking put an end to what by that time seemed inconsequential by comparison, she gained the name Shadar Nor,

 

There is no need to come up with alternate meanings for Shadar Nor when we are given two that fit with what the document tells us she did, fight against the "Shadowsworn".

 

surely i'm not the only one who can see that that line could be interpreted with her fighting on either side?

 

In my years on DM this is the first time I've seen it put forth.

 

Someone on the side of the shadow would not rise to "prominence that rivaled LTT", she wouldn't be called "cutter of shadow/slicer of shadow" and most importantly she wouldn't gain the name fighting "against the Shadowsworn". Occam's Razor my friend.

 

Btw Saidin being tainted as well=annihilation. LPD and the female AS are the only thing that held the world together. If men and women had been running rampant with no one to stop them the world would already be destroyed.

 

 

when a man on tainted saidin cleansed their source? I still think there's a plausible gap in logic here, but i'll gladly admit RJ's intent was probably that she was light side all along. with a poor solution.

[Suttree]

when a man on tainted saidin cleansed their source? I still think there's a plausible gap in logic here, but i'll gladly admit RJ's intent was probably that she was light side all along. with a poor solution.

 

Sorry meant to say Saidar being tainted as well obvs....it took the CK to cleanse the source. They were lost during the breaking.

[GreenStarLight]

when a man on tainted saidin cleansed their source? I still think there's a plausible gap in logic here, but i'll gladly admit RJ's intent was probably that she was light side all along. with a poor solution.

 

Sorry meant to say Saidar being tainted as well obvs....it took the CK to cleanse the source. They were lost during the breaking.

 

 

sorry, CK? imma go ask the official acronyms get updated.

[Suttree]

when a man on tainted saidin cleansed their source? I still think there's a plausible gap in logic here, but i'll gladly admit RJ's intent was probably that she was light side all along. with a poor solution.

 

Sorry meant to say Saidar being tainted as well obvs....it took the CK to cleanse the source. They were lost during the breaking.

 

 

sorry, CK? imma go ask the official acronyms get updated.

 

Choedan Kal

[GreenStarLight]

Oh, you meant the sa'angreal Latra had made which she lost. Which... if they hadn't and had gone through with Lews Therin's plan, then whoever's left sane could have cleansed the source straight after?

And I mean tainting's bad, but annihilation? No everyone goes mad strait away, not everyone goes 'rah, destroy things!'.

[Amadine]

Choedan Kal

[Mr Ares]

Oh, you meant the sa'angreal Latra had made which she lost. Which... if they hadn't and had gone through with Lews Therin's plan, then whoever's left sane could have cleansed the source straight after?

How could they have cleansed the Source? An important part of the Cleansing was Shadar Logoth - which didn't exist. Without it, where do they put the taint?

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

Ah, resurrected threads. It's fascinating that so many fans fall into the same two factions that the actual AoLers did.

 

Objectively, and without the benefit of hindsight, Lews' plan was crazy, Latra's denial of their looming defeat was crazy, and the Shadow's pressure on the Light at that point was crazy. If the two greatest leaders of the war (on the side of the Light) could not find a good way to succeed, and were reduced to crazy schemes (be they Lews' or Latra's) instead, it simply reflects how unsalvageable the Light's position was.

 

The more recent discussion about Latra being a Darkfriend is pretty far-flung! Then again, I'm not one to dismiss far-flung interpretations of characters. =) Amazingly, I find I agree that it's possible that Latra was a Darkfriend and that the White Tower covered it up after the fact. Possible, mind you. To me it seems very obvious that she was one of the Light's greatest champions, and extremely unlikely that she was a Darkfriend.

 

Lews and Latra needed each other. With hindsight, we see that, had Latra not resisted Lews' plan, the world would almost certainly have been doomed as all channelers would have been affected by the Taint, whereas had Lews not persisted in carrying out his plan the Shadow would almost certainly have won back in the AoL. (I say "almost" because it's possible that neither of those assumptions is true.)

[dingbat]

Oh, you meant the sa'angreal Latra had made which she lost. Which... if they hadn't and had gone through with Lews Therin's plan, then whoever's left sane could have cleansed the source straight after?

How could they have cleansed the Source? An important part of the Cleansing was Shadar Logoth - which didn't exist. Without it, where do they put the taint?

 

Have to say I never made this connection. I just figured Rand knew wherever the cleansing took place would destroy the land so might as well kill two birds with one stone and take out Shadar Logoth while he was at it. Makes sense that Shadar Logoth's unique DO hating evil would be needed.

[Datakim]

Here is an idea. Is it possible that LPD was not actually the one responsible for the Fatefull Condord, but rather LTT himself (sort of)?

 

LTT was presumably a ta'veren as strong as Rand is, and therefore very capable of influencing others through that. Furthermore, we know that ta'veren does what the pattern wants rather than what the person himself wants.

 

RJ flat out said that if women HAD joined the sealing, both sides would have been tainted which would have been a disaster.

 

Budapest Q&A - April 2003

 

Q: Why saidin, why not saidar, was tainted?

RJ: Because there were only men in the party that made up the party that made up the Strike at Shayol Ghul, that were setting the seals. In the act of setting the seals, there was a backblast that affected the people doing this. As I pointed out in something…I wrote a piece called The Strike at Shayol Ghul…there was a great division at the time – I don’t know if all of you have read it…or have none of you read it?

Qs: Yes, yes.

RJ: Okay, then you know about the political struggles that were going on, and the different plans to try and end the War of the Shadow, and seal up the….and why various groups thought that one plan or the other was the best way to go. And in the end, what resulted was the so-called “Fatal Covenant” [it was actually the “Fateful Concord” – Terez], which had the female Aes Sedai swearing not to go along with Lews Therin’s plan, that they would not support it. The result of this was that Lews Therin carried out his plan with only male Aes Sedai, so there were only male Aes Sedai channeling there, which was a lucky thing, because if there’d been women as well, then both saidin and saidar would have been tainted. And his plan worked, except for that one side effect of the backblast which tainted saidin and caused him and the men there with him to go mad there and then, and other male Aes Sedai to go mad slowly as they touched the Source and began to absorb bits of the taint. But that’s why saidar was not tainted, because there were only men there channeling during this act of sealing up the Dark One’s prison.

 

So the way I see it, given the situation with the light at the verge of total defeat, there were only a few possible options available.

 

1.Do nothing. This option would have resulted in victory of the shadow which in turn would have given the DO time to break free and destroy everything. Bad option.

 

2.Continue trying to recover the access keys. We already know that there was no hope of success at the time anymore. This is basically option 1.

 

3.Perform LTT's plan with both genders. RJ has confirmed that this would have resulted in EVERY channeler everywhere going insane. Just men going mad broke the world. Add women and it is possible that the devastation would have destroyed humanity utterly. Better than option 1 since the DO is sealed, but still pretty damn bad.

 

4.Perform LTT's plan with only males. The DO is sealed preventing option 1, while also leaving the women sane preventing option 3. The world is screwed and lots of people die, but humanity and reality both survive.

 

Obviously option 4, which is what happened, is the best possible option with the best possible result of those available. LTT and LPD would not have had the necessary foreknowledge to realise this ofcourse, but one could presume that the pattern would have. And it is the pattern that uses ta'veren. What it everytime LTT met with LPD to try to and convince her to follow him, the pattern was using LTT's own ta'veren against him to make sure that LPD infact did NOT agree with LTT? This way events played out in the best possible way through option 4.

[Elan Tedronai]

The first mistake the forces of light made was not protecting the access keys at the time. they ought to have surrounded the construction with most of their forces because allowing the shadow to even get a hint of overruning the area would have been foolhardy.

 

 

The second mistake was not getting hold of beidomon to find out what exactly he and lanfear have done to the DO prison. That would have given them a few ideas on the nature of the bore and a good plan to seal it.Perhaps that would have given beidomon some sort of redemption too.

 

 

As it turns out what the mistake LTT and co made was that they thought they could fix what the creator has made. But seeing as there was no other alternatives before they were about to be overrun by the shadow, the actions of LTT was just the last desperate act of general who saw doom coming.

[Thor]

I'm pretty sure Latra Pose was actually assasinated by Darkfriends because of her efforts. It was said that the Breaking may not have happened if not for her death.

[avernite]

To me the situation echoes the present very strongly.

 

Rand wants to do something seemingly crazy as a massive surprise attack that wipes away the shadow. Egwene considers it overly risky. We know that in the AoL lack of compromise led to a suboptimal solution... So, somehow, I think Rand will have to adapt his plans.

 

 

 

I also see Latra's idea as similar to Egwene's: the idea is so ludicrous, so dangerous... the very thought scares people into paralysis. For the Light to win, they have to overcome both the paralysis and the crazy. LTT overcame the paralysis by going it alone, and didn't completely win. It was the best choice out of a bad bunch, but I can't help think that if he had been able to adapt his plan to an acceptable idea for Latra, the war would have ended in a lightside win (of course, they had no time, and the wheel probably made it impossible anyway).

[lilltempest]

To me the situation echoes the present very strongly.

 

Rand wants to do something seemingly crazy as a massive surprise attack that wipes away the shadow. Egwene considers it overly risky. We know that in the AoL lack of compromise led to a suboptimal solution... So, somehow, I think Rand will have to adapt his plans.

 

 

 

I also see Latra's idea as similar to Egwene's: the idea is so ludicrous, so dangerous... the very thought scares people into paralysis. For the Light to win, they have to overcome both the paralysis and the crazy. LTT overcame the paralysis by going it alone, and didn't completely win. It was the best choice out of a bad bunch, but I can't help think that if he had been able to adapt his plan to an acceptable idea for Latra, the war would have ended in a lightside win (of course, they had no time, and the wheel probably made it impossible anyway).

 

Rand doesn't need Egwene's approval. Rand has Nynaeve, Alivia, and (the Creator help him) Cadsuane (remember, she did not try to dissuade him from breaking the seals and is, by default, supporting him on the matter). He thinks he needs three female channelers and he has them, whether Egwene likes it or not. So Egwene can throw a hissy or say no AS will be allowed to help him if she wants - Cadsuane spanked one Amyrlin, so I doubt she has a problem with telling Egwene to go screw herself sideways, and Nynaeve has given her word to Rand and I don't see her backing out. Even if Egwene manages to lock Nynaeve up so she can't help, Alivia is available in her stead. So Egwene's threats will mean nothing to Rand. And, once the seals are broken, I'm guessing a little hell will break loose (not completely, since the DO won't be completely free), so Egwene can either fight or die. I'd have no problem with her and her moronic bunch of women choosing the latter.

[Morsker]

Here is an idea. Is it possible that LPD was not actually the one responsible for the Fatefull Condord, but rather LTT himself (sort of)?

...

What it everytime LTT met with LPD to try to and convince her to follow him, the pattern was using LTT's own ta'veren against him to make sure that LPD infact did NOT agree with LTT? This way events played out in the best possible way through option 4.

 

I like this, but I'd just as well say Latra was ta'veren herself. She has the strongest mark of ta'veren: ridiculously good persuasive power. She's so good at this, managing to convince every last woman of sufficient strength not to join LTT's plan, that when I first read the short fiction about it, I thought it was poor writing, like a fanfic Mary Sue. No one is that persuasive -- it's silly! Except that in WoT, there just happens to be a supernatural power that makes people that persuasive, and is deeply written into the setting. It fits. And it's sort of necessary, if we're going to see Latra's story as anything other than silly.

 

We also know ta'veren have to be present for their effect to work; when Rand leaves his AS negotiators to deal with the Sea Folk, ta'veren stops working because he isn't there. So unless LTT was literally stalking Latra everywhere, it couldn't be his ta'veren status working through her. It was her own ta'veren status.

[Apple13]

She might not have needed ridiculous persuasive power, I think. From what it says, the coflict between the men and women got so intense that some of them wouldn't even talk to one another because of it. It could have been that at the beginning, Lews Therin had managed to convince most of the men, and Latra Posae had convinced most of the women. And then when the men and women started getting into a conflict with each other, the others might have just joined in on the bandwagon, because there was starting to be such a great rift between the men and the women.

[NitroS]

Lews Therin when talking in Rands head said that latra posae's plan wouldnt have worked because you cant defeat the Dark one with sheer power and since he would know the most about the dark one ( besides the forsaken) we can assume that he is correct, so we can basically blame latra for not being able to seal the bore permanetly. Not having access to circles and still managing to enslave and dark one and forsaken with just 113 channelers, imagine what would have happened with circles formed.