The Shadow's Economy

[RAND AL THOR]

This has been puzzling me for ages.

 

Myrdraal/Trollocs are horribly wasted throughout the books. Hundreds of thousands die throughout WOT.

 

Now, all these trollocs have armour/weapons and require food.

 

Where does all this originate? Weapons/armour are never recovered by the shadow so how on earth is so much produced ??? If the Shadow is actually making all the armour/weaponry and supplying food (meat) for all those trollocs then that would make the economic stability of the Shadow the best ever. It doesnt seem very feasible.

 

Unfortunately we have not been given views into the shadow's economy-hence allowing the writer as much freedom as he wished in that department. Just see how the Light is suffering from all the food spoiling and everything. How does the Shadow manage to FEED its armies? Especially since everything in the Blight is dead or alive and dangerous.

 

I was wondering the same thing in LOTR but it was mentioned in the last book that Mordor was supplied by its allies in the far East which is creditable.

 

And lastly, there is an issue I think that the blades of a Myrdraal require a human;s life to be forged. I am not too sure on this so please correct me if I'm wrong. But how does that make a Mydraal's blade and different? And considering the large number of Mydraal, does the Borderlands really lose so many victims to trolloc raids?

[Mr Ares]

Weapons/armour are never recovered by the shadow so how on earth is so much produced ??? If the Shadow is actually making all the armour/weaponry and supplying food (meat) for all those trollocs then that would make the economic stability of the Shadow the best ever. It doesnt seem very feasible.

We've seen the forgers at Thakandar. They seem more than capable of producing weapons and armour in vast quantities.

 

Unfortunately we have not been given views into the shadow's economy-hence allowing the writer as much freedom as he wished in that department. Just see how the Light is suffering from all the food spoiling and everything. How does the Shadow manage to FEED its armies? Especially since everything in the Blight is dead or alive and dangerous.

Trollocs can eat what humans can't. Also, there are always the Borderlanders...

 

And lastly, there is an issue I think that the blades of a Myrdraal require a human;s life to be forged. I am not too sure on this so please correct me if I'm wrong. But how does that make a Mydraal's blade and different? And considering the large number of Mydraal, does the Borderlands really lose so many victims to trolloc raids?

To your last question: yes. To your first: Myddraal blades don't wound. Even a scratch will kill you (immediate help from an AS could possibly save you).

[Bob T Dwarf]

All of that still ignores the basic question.  One I've asked numerous times, as well.

 

How does the Dark support itself?

[DemandredFO]

I'm assuming they steal or mine the metal to make the weapons.  as for the feed they eat anything; humans, other trollocs, who knows.  hope that helps

[Bob T Dwarf]

There's a massive infrastructure needed to support any society.  Who administers it?  Who maintains it?

 

The DO and its thirteen remaining lieutenants have been sealed away for nigh unto three thousand years.  Yet, when they begin to re-emerge, there waiting for them is a functioning Myrddraal and Trolloc society.  Trained and equipped troops.  Forges forging.  Armorers armoring.  Cadre drilling and training.  Mouths eating.  Ores being mined.  etc., etc., ad nauseum.

 

Armies and warfare are all about logistics.  How's all of that stuff being produced?  Where is it all coming from?

[benr]

Puzzling, to say the least.  All Myrdraal and Trollocs only exist to destroy the Light, though, so there aren't the usual niceties of society to worry about.  Also, while the forces of the Light have compunctions about what they use/destroy in the world (they want to leave something for after TG), the Dark has no such worries.  Even so, that isn't enough, as many of you have pointed out.

 

Another thing - how do they recruit so many DFs?  It doesn't seem exceptionally attractive.  Do they have recruiters out there, promising great pay, vacations, and everlasting life?  Do they have dental?  My real job is bad enough; I have issues with my bosses, etc., but I don't think it's possible to make this attractive as a career change.

[RAND AL THOR]

All societies which have LIVING BEINGS that are living in a somewhat organized way need an economy. My main issue is with the food because stuff that is safe enough to eat doesn't grow in the blight.

 

There were some poisoned trees in the blight in EOTW. Can you imagine trollocs eating that? Their diets consist mainly of meat, I believe.

 

Furthermore, I don;t think that the raids on the borderlands could possibly turn up enough people to forge all the myrdraal blades and also possibly provide food. That would all but annihilate the borderlander population.

 

I have yet to see a convincing answer to the original question.

 

And also, Benr has a point there. Very few DFs actually benefit from being a DF. After 3000 years, surely the DF are getting to understand that? I cannot believe that all new DF who join up are ignorant of what is actually happening to DF after 3000 years. LOL

 

The recruiting may be done by existing DF. The other anomaly is WHY people seem to turn to the Dark. I especially don't understand why on EARTH anyone would give up their soul to become a Gray Man. I can imagine Bellatrix in HP doing that, but who else?

[Andrew the Great]

There's a massive infrastructure needed to support any society.  Who administers it?  Who maintains it?

 

If I had to guess, I'd say that Ishamael would be a good bet for who set it up. Seeing as we don't really know what their societal structure is, we don't know how much maintaining it would require.

 

Also, the borderlands aren't the only land bordering the blight. If I remember correctly there is land north of SG as well. That could possibly supply some of their food. Besides, we really have no reason to believe that the trollocs couldn't be up north just farming away. If nothing else, they could raise animals for meat. Heck, kill one of those worm things, you've got enough meat for hundreds...

[RAND AL THOR]

Trollocs farming? That would be like Nyneave singing at an inn!

North of SG I would expect ice and snow if nothing else. Not necessarily so but it is usual.

 

Trollocs are terrified of wyrms. Trollocs rarely hunt something that could be stronger than themselves. This is mentioned in TSR

[benr]

 

 

And also, Benr has a point there.

 

RAND AL THOR, it is benr, not Benr  ;D

[Ahaz Flagg]

Any answer that is given is going to be subject to guessing, that being said I believe I will take a stab in the dark at this question.

 

 

Take in to account that as far as we know there is no human population base that lives in the blight. At least none that i ever remember reading about.

 

How do they get metal and pay for it? The Great lord of the darks prison is based in a mountian, we will have to assume that mountian contains alot of iron and other such metals that are needed to make them, with out more information this has to be the best answer we will get for the time being. As to how they pay fot it, they do not, there are no humans to do the work, the creatures that work there are not human, and if they do not do the  work the great lord would surely end their lives.    That will cover that part of it.

 

I fail to see why they would need an economy like you suggest, there is no population base that would need an economy.  The monies they need they can get several ways, they have a cadre of nobles who would certianly fund any project they were told to, they have many Aes Sedai that would also help in this area.

 

I will grant you the fact that the Trollocs food is an issues, but has been said many times Trollocs will eat anything including each other, but the number of trollocs that have been killed in the books would suggest that population of the world would be much much smaller than it is now, just based on the fact they are so big and I assume that would eat quite a bit.

 

I am sure we will never get an answer that will clear this up, but meh they are still fun to read.

[Jon Snow]

I am pretty sure that trollocs can eat each other when there is no other option for food.

 

Also, while you may not be able to understand why anyone on EARTH would convert to the shadow, you have to realize this isn't EARTH. It is a different world. So to expect everything to function in the same fashion would here is a poor way of looking at the situation.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Ummmmmm... these are supposed to be human beings not some alien lifeforms.  Thus their acts and motivations must be understandably human.  Becoming a DF is self-evidently contra-survival, so the only explanation for the continuous supply of DF is rampant insanity in the population as-a-whole.

 

Trollocs will eat anything so long as it is meat.  In a land where nothing wholesome grows, there isn't likely to be much in the way of meat roaming around to be killed for food.

 

Unless somebody is proposing that Trollocs can somehow reproduce faster than they would consume each other for food, they should have died out within a few months or years of the Sealing, at most.  Each Thrakan'dar blade requires a human soul before it is finished.  Those blades wear out and must be replaced at regular intervals.  Raids into the Borderlands just to supply souls for finishing those blades would have decimated those countries long since.

 

As I said in another thread... when the Trollocs and Myrddraal appear in their hordes, start looking around for Jason and his Argonauts.  Somebody, somewhere has an unending supply of dragon's teeth.

[benr]

The alternate reality that Rand went into with Loial and Hurin through the Portal Stone would seem to have been the result of the victory by the shadow, where the Trollocs and other nefarious Shadow Creatures first destroyed and ate all creatures of the Light, then took care of each other.  Why that hasn't happened to Rand's real world owes itself to the fact that the Light hasn't been defeated, but doesn't it seem that the population has been decreasing for the past 3000 years?  Parts of Randland simply no longer have any inhabitants - nations don't even claim them.  Perhaps we are seeing the slow move towards extermination, unless the Light can get a true victory over the Dark. 

[Dhaos]

Bob, I generally agree with you that the numbers don't seem to work out.  I think maybe- just maybe- Fades are rare enough (1:100 Trollocs?  Rarer still?) that raids into the Borderlands to supply souls for their swords wouldn't totally decimate the populace.  But that's ignoring the issue of Trolloc dietary needs.

 

NOTE: This next portion is simply some back-of-the-envelope estimation, intended for fun.  I am NOT making any definitive statements about WoT or RJ's intentions.  This is fun.

 

There are at least hundreds of thousands of Trollocs, if not millions.  If the Last Battle is going to be any kind of fight, there will -need- to be millions.  To get an idea of how much of a logistical issue this is, we need to step back.

 

As has been mentioned, Trollocs are carnivores.  They eat meat.  Trollocs are also described as significantly larger than men, and significantly stronger.  8 foot tall bruisers, most Trollocs would probably weigh in between 400 and 500 lbs.  Big guys.

 

Fueling all of that muscle has its costs.  We'll go with Tigers as a baseline of comparison: tigers are large, meat-eating predators, and like Trollocs, much of their mass is devoted to muscle.  According to 30 seconds of research via Google, Tigers eat about 40 kilos of meat per week. (http://www.mnzoo.com/education/TICadventures/habitats/meat.htm)  Let's say the average Borderlander is 70 kilo- averaging their large, strapping warriors with the average Saldaen farmgirl.  According to wikipedia, the human body derives about 20% of its weight from meat.  So one Borderlander in a cookpot yields 55 kilos of edible mass.  Or almost enough to feed 1 1/2 Trollocs for a week.  Fantastic!

 

So how many Borderlanders have to die to keep the Trolloc population fed for a year?  Well, that depends on how many Trollocs there are.

 

EDIT: Math issues, correcting here.  Sorry for the confusion.

 

100,000 Trollocs * ((1 Person/ Week)/(1.5 Trollocs)) * 52 Weeks/Year = 346,000 Persons/Year

 

1,000,000 Trollocs = above * 10 = 3.46 million Persons/Year

5,000,000 Trollocs = above * 50 = 15 million Persons/Year

 

 

...Clearly there's an issue here.  Even if you assume (as I do) that I'm way off on a few of these figures, and that my numbers are too generous by a factor of 10, you still have 34,600 deaths/100,000 Trollocs per year.

 

That's a small city on the Borderlands totally wiped out, every year.  And that's just to feed 100,000 Trollocs.  We should fully expect that there are millions.

 

As for Trollocs eating each other- I know this is a fantasy universe, but seeing as RJ had a firm understanding of physics, I think we should assume that the Second Law of Thermodynamics is in play.  Meaning, there's no way the Trolloc population could increase (or even sustain itself) if cannibalism is providing the bulk of their diet.  Simply put, living takes too much energy.

 

So what's the answer?  Deep in the blight, the Trollocs raise twisted livestock?  Even HUMAN livestock?

 

Or perhaps Trollocs are fueled by biological perpetual motion machines.  The "eating people" thing is just for show. XD

 

Myself, I honestly think this is just an oversight on RJ's part, if an understandable one.

[Jonn]

Aginor more than suggests that like a Gholam and Draghkar, Trollocs are constructs. I won't go so far as to say that I am positive, but they may be cloned somehow. It's been a question before about female trollocs, where are they, what do they do...

I honestly don't know and since there's no reference in the books we can only guess. Doesn't really matter if RJ's mentioned it or not, it isn't a working point in the books as it's never mentioned and no one in the books really seems to know.

 

Aginor seems to be the best source and what he suggests is that trollocs are genetic constructs fusing animals and human stock. We might guess that the Shadow has a means to create creatures through ways other than practical breeding.

 

One can guess that producing more trollocs could be a matter of the Power or may be assisted by a teragreal or some scientific means similar to or actually consisting of cloning.

 

Before the end of the War of Power it is said that the Shadow had taken the majority of the lands and many of the technologies and resources were lost to the Shadow's conquest. Perhaps there was technology that allowed for the making of food products without having to kill. The Age of Legends was a Utopia, so we can probably rightly assume that a great stock was placed in non-violence, and things like the rights of animals and other living things, environments, conservatory society...

 

Take our society for example. A lot of people practice different extremes of vegetarianism and humanitarianism. Some do so to such a degree that they need alternative sources of protein and certain vitamins and minerals. So, you have a lot of technology devoted to providing food resources without actually killing animals. Soy products, like soyburgers etc.

 

The Shadow could have perverted techniques used to feed large populations without sacrifice, into a means to feed massive hordes of trollocs. As Aginor says, trollocs simply are bred to enjoy killing, but to actually survive, they may not even have to kill.

 

An alternative thought is that as constructs, trollocs could actually have been engineered to need very little food if any at all. The need to kill could simply be there as an engineered trait to create weapons for the Shadow.

 

 

I've always assumed that the Shadow was using terangreal or techniques lost from the Age of Legends to make soulless slabs of meat.

 

As for the economy, like migrant workers all over the world do, Darkfriends provide a great deal of the working economy for the Shadow's initiatives. Within the Blight, I don't imagine there there is much need for a commerce system since it it a true slave state. Trollocs do as they are told or are killed. They are engineered to crave violence like a drug, so they make ideal weapons, with no want except to murder, maim and feed off of death.

 

I'll have to take exception to Bob's assertion that for there to be large numbers of Darkfriends, the population would have to be largely insane...It's a matter of perspective. Human nature is sadly ruthless in a lot of ways. If someone offers you a life of comfort and in exchange all you need do is join the winning side, a lot of people would choose that. Hate to make it political, but we can take the attitude of many Republicans in the United States. There is a twisting of the Republican ideals in this modern age that being a Republican is largely to the benefit of the wealthy. That's a fair assessment. They offer relatively low taxes to those who are wealthy and promise to have a hands off approach when it comes to regulating business practices, believing that having a strong middle and Upper class will fuel the economy.

Now this is, granted, a biased view of the tenets of the Republican philosophy, but no doubt those who feel strongly about being a Republican can turn a blind eye to what is wrong with their political philosphical outlook in order to defend what they believe is right in their eyes.

Now, I can tell you that many many people opposed to the Republican policies often think that these people who defend these ideals are...evil, insane, greedy, selfish, cold-hearted, delusional, pseudo-conservative, pseudo-religious bastards. Yet, there are millions and millions of them. How do you reconcile the fact that so many are opposed to your set of values? It's not always cut and dry.

 

Now there is something to be said about the Shadow being cut and dry evil and typically should be shunned and fought to the death.

I look at the Shadow in a world war 2 model rather than a more modern post cold war, post terror model. Nazis and Imperial Japan were pretty much considered as evil as you can get, but still they had millions of followers born through a number of factors... Fear, intimidation, military might, propaganda, promises of wealth and reform post world conquest.

Sound familiar?

Seems to fit, don't you think?

 

These are simply ideas though. It works enough for me to suspend my disbelief if there is any.

[RAND AL THOR]

As Aginor says, trollocs simply are bred to enjoy killing, but to actually survive, they may not even have to kill.

 

An alternative thought is that as constructs, trollocs could actually have been engineered to need very little food if any at all. The need to kill could simply be there as an engineered trait to create weapons for the Shadow.

 

 

There is sufficient evidence in the books, however, that trolllocs DO require food to live, most notably in the Shadow Rising. During the attacks on Emond's Field, some dead trollocs are removed by live ones to eat. While this makes it clear that trollocs do eat their own kin, it is VERY unlikely that trolllocs would KILL each other merely for food. Such a population would quickly disappear.

 

Someone mentioned natural breeding methods among trollocs. I was laughing so hard at the very thought of it. It is possible of course. But other ways for trolloc production seem likely.

 

A key point on trolloc raids and human prisoners:

If villages and towns near the blight are continuously attacked and large numbers of humans are taken hostage- then nobody would live there. The people would just flee to well defended cities. I always considered the idea to be somewhat far-fetched because why on earth would anyone live anywhere where there is a possibility of being abducted by trollocs? So it is more or less clear that the number of hostages taken must be very small indeed.

 

As far as we know, DFs don't get much out of being DFs. That is the amusing part. So far we have seen how they are threatened and intimidated. Their relatives are fed to mydraal if they fail their missions. Just see how Moggy treats the BA in Book 4-5. DFs have much worse lives than normal people,except for a select few.

 

The only logical explanation for the continued high recruitment rate of DFs is that a person newly signing up is not aware of what actually happens to DFs. That is sensible because DFs do not flaunt their identity so there is very limited possibility for any two DFs to meet and discuss how their lives changed after betraying the light!

[Bob T Dwarf]

Jonn -

 

If you look really closely at Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan, ( Stalinist/Soviet Russia, as well ) those folks did suffer a kind of mass psychosis.  Or at least a frantic kind of delusional rationalization.

 

The fact that, largely, they looked, sounded, and acted much like most of us here when they were 'to home', as the saying goes, doesn't mean they weren't nuts.  It just means that we each need to look a little more closely at our own justifications for our acts.

[Spirit1025]

I'm pretty sure Trollocs do reproduce naturally. How else would Myrdraal be their 'offspring'? If you were producing trollocs through cloning, they would also always be genetically identical to the one being cloned. Therefore, the Fades would not occur. On page 73 of the white book, in the section on Myrdraal, it says 'Trollocs do not always breed true; they sometimes produce throwbacks to either the animal or the human side of their genetics." That would lead me to believe they mate and have young just like other animals. Also, on page 76 of that book, "As in the Age of Legends, only male trollocs fight or hunt. Females are cloistered, serving as little more than breeding machines. Fortunately, female Trollocs enjoy being pregnant. Trollocs can interbreed with humans..." That pretty much settles where Trollocs come from, yes? Hopefully no one needs a more detailed explanation? lol

 

Page 76 says that Trollocs make their own weapons and armor. So presumably they mine or steal the metal or maybe darkfriends get it for them, then they make it into what they need.

 

I can't come up with anything clever as to how they get enough to eat. Maybe like a lot of carnivorous animals, they don't necessarily eat every day? Still, they'd need a lot of food, even eating say, three times a week. I would guess Trollocs have a similar lifespan and development to humans, so it couldn't be that they reproduce so fast that they can keep up with the demand for food. Hmm...

 

As for why people become darkfriends...look at why the Forsaken did it. They were offered power, immortality, etc. That's a pretty tempting deal, especially when you're in a position where you really, really want or need something. Why do people choose to become criminals, in our world? They know that bad things like going to jail are likely to happen to them, (at least in the US) but they still do it. They often have some need, or believe they have some need, that drives them to do what they do. They may steal because they don't have everything they need/want. Or they may murder someone over a real or supposed injustice done to them. Or they may do it just to be rebellious, to do what is wrong BECAUSE it is wrong. (If you don't believe that, spend some time with kids!). A lot of you might not like to look at it this way, but see it in a religious sort of light. In the world in the books, you can choose to follow the Light/Creator, or the Dark/Dark One. From a Christian perspective (my own), that's similar to the choice to either follow God or Satan. (Assuming there are no other alternatives, for simplicity) From what I can gather, Robert Jordan had a similar worldview, and his books definitely support it to an extent. I've known plenty of people who turned away from God because of some difficult question in their lives that couldn't be answered, or because of anger or grief, including myself when I was younger. I would bet people turn to the Dark one for the same reasons.Why do Satanists choose to follow Satan? (not knowing any, I can't answer that lol) Perhaps they believe they are on the side of right, and those who follow 'the Light' are the wrong ones?

 

 

[Lord Nik]

Female trollocs are breeding machines... Good for female trollocs cause they seem to like breeding (BWB) And there were human breeding camps used for fodder during war of shadow i believe...

maybe theres a trolloc food bank where you throw in your unruly children and undesirables ::)

[Jonn]

Jonn -

 

If you look really closely at Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan, ( Stalinist/Soviet Russia, as well ) those folks did suffer a kind of mass psychosis.  Or at least a frantic kind of delusional rationalization.

 

The fact that, largely, they looked, sounded, and acted much like most of us here when they were 'to home', as the saying goes, doesn't mean they weren't nuts.  It just means that we each need to look a little more closely at our own justifications for our acts.

 

I'd argue that that's precisely the reason why it's not that hard to see why people would become Darkfriends. So-called "normal" and "good" people are quite capable of rationalizing terrible truths in order to justify why they never did anything to stop it. They were helpless. They just followed orders. The truly evil people had so much power. Their families would have been harmed...

 

All the while, under such duress, these monsters give you things, comforts, prizes and trinkets. Somehow the poison becomes easier to swallow when it tastes like candy. It's only killing you a little bit at a time. Maybe if you live long enough, you'll find a way to come out on top, cheat the system. Maybe you'll be the one to survive. If you play along.

 

See what happens there?

 

Ah...the White book, that's where I remember the female trollocs from. I don't know...I'm a little skeptical of some of the stuff that's in the White book, but I'll take it for what it says for now, having no evidence that denies the point.

 

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

Someone mentioned natural breeding methods among trollocs. I was laughing so hard at the very thought of it. It is possible of course. But other ways for trolloc production seem likely.

UNQUOTE

 

Whats so funny about it? Its true, and Im sure I remember one of the Forsaken thinking to themself saying that Myrdraal (or Halfmen as they called it, so many names for em) are rare Trolloc offsrping that turned out abit wrong

[benr]

I have the perfect recruitment slogan for the DO:  (for those as old as me, or knowledgeable of old-time radio)  "Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men?  The Shadow knows!"

[Cockta]

I think I know an answer to the food problem. Well, since the trollocs eat only meat, that excludes farms where they grow plants. Maybe they have "pig farms". Places where they house animals that can actually eat stuff that is growing in the blight. The animals could be something Aginor created, just like the trollocs.

[DemandredFO]

We may see some more of the Blight in the last book.  Two other possibilities;  The Aiel males who go to slay the dark one trollocs could eat them and we know nothing of Shara or any other lands.  Perhaps those lands are ruled by darkfriends and as someone said they send their criminals.

As to the reason people live near the blight, look at people in the United States(since that's the only country I know) some live in flood plains or on the side mountains in earthquake zones even though there is a good possibility they will be flooded out or homes destroyed or killed.