An inconsistancy with Balefire

[dmanmiller34]

This may have been discussed before BUt I have noticed an incositance with balefire. For example when Rand Killed the demon dogs in rhuidian he used a "finger Thick" beam of balefire that as we all know caused the dogs to turn funky colors and no longer exist. the entire animal did. But the inconistnacy I see is that when balefire is used on say a boat (nyneave) or a building it just burns holes or slices. If rand hits a ceiling columb with Balefire it just takes a chunk out the exact size of the flow used not destroying the entire columb. Yet used on a living thing it doesn't just burn a hole through them, the entire organism is destroyed. I find this inconsisitant. Your thoughts on this?

[Majsju]

Balefire burns the threads of living things from the pattern, thus they cease to exist before they were actually hit.

 

Dead things, like boats, does not have threads, so they still exist after having been hit, just with a hole after the balefire.

 

This is very consistent.

[RAND AL THOR]

Balefire burns the threads of living things from the pattern, thus they cease to exist before they were actually hit.

 

Dead things, like boats, does not have threads, so they still exist after having been hit, just with a hole after the balefire.

 

This is very consistent.

 

That is very sensible, but how does the Pattern view a human body? To remove a person's thread, ought it not be enough to eliminate his soul? The body, after all, is only a mass of matter. When Rand loses his hand (a part of his body) that that no effect on the stability of his thread. If he dies, his thread will still exist and he will be reborn. So doesnt it look like the body is not tied to the thread? If so, dmanmiller's question is quite right.

[Andrew the Great]

I'd say not necessarily. Maj's answer makes the most sense. If the soul doesn't have a body to inhabit, it goes to wherever it waits to be reborn. It is no longer in the pattern because it's somewhere else. Balefire is just another way to kill someone, its just that it kills them before it hits them. That sounded really weird, but I can't think of a better way to phrase it.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

That is very sensible, but how does the Pattern view a human body? To remove a person's thread, ought it not be enough to eliminate his soul? The body, after all, is only a mass of matter. When Rand loses his hand (a part of his body) that that no effect on the stability of his thread. If he dies, his thread will still exist and he will be reborn. So doesnt it look like the body is not tied to the thread? If so, dmanmiller's question is quite right.

 

Imagine a spool of yarn, with only one end (the spool is infinitely long). When you are born, the end is pulled and tied in (marking the beginning of your life). Then you are woven into the pattern. When you die, the pattern cuts the other part, making an end to tie you to where you die.

 

And then when rebirth comes, the process starts over.

 

The soul would be the thread. And since the thread is really the same throughout, just because it is separated from itself does not mean it is different.

 

Balefire burns the threads of living things from the pattern, thus they cease to exist before they were actually hit.

 

This brings up something interesting. If it indeed burns anything living, that must mean trees and plants have threads. Wow, the wheel is complex.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Balefire keeps going until it strikes a living creature. Ive always thought that was pretty standard, especially since Rands fight with Asmodean at Rhuidean. Didnt they slice a mountain in half or something like that?

[Cybertrolloc]

Balefire burns the threads of living things from the pattern, thus they cease to exist before they were actually hit.

 

Dead things, like boats, does not have threads, so they still exist after having been hit, just with a hole after the balefire.

 

This is very consistent.

Except for Mog blasting at Nyn in Ebou Dar ;) I don't think there's too many other examples of objects described well enough to figure out much useful.

[RAND AL THOR]

 

Balefire burns the threads of living things from the pattern, thus they cease to exist before they were actually hit.

 

This brings up something interesting. If it indeed burns anything living, that must mean trees and plants have threads. Wow, the wheel is complex.

 

I thought of that and then decided never to mention it to any living person in case my sanity comes under doubt. Threads in the pattern even for a blade of grass? Blood and bloody ashes!!!!!!

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

And the rabbit hole goes deeper. If ta'veren warp all the surrounding threads around them, what effects might they have on the environment? Animals carving new niches for themselves, mass migrations at odd times, prey becoming predator and predator becoming prey?

 

And do animals and grass get reborn? Can a blade of grass be ta'veren?

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

do we even have an instance of balefire 'vaporizing' a whole tree?

[Paviel]

Balefire keeps going until it strikes a living creature.

 

I thought Mogedien's blast killed both of the oarsmen on Nynaeve's boat. If true, it must have hit one and kept going to hit the other.

[Cybertrolloc]

Balefire keeps going until it strikes a living creature.

 

I thought Mogedien's blast killed both of the oarsmen on Nynaeve's boat. If true, it must have hit one and kept going to hit the other.

Good call, forgot about that part. It would be the oarsmen being bf'd that "caused" the boat to not have gone whatever distance. There's still the matter of it filling with water.

 

Also replace living with has a soul? Maybe that doesn't cover shadowspawn...gah, it's magic ;)

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

And do animals and grass get reborn? Can a blade of grass be ta'veren?

UNQUOTE

 

HAHAHAHAHA I can imagine it now. A blade of grass in my garden is Ta'veren.

 

When I mow my lawn the mower blades just happen to keep missing it. It continues to grow through all the seasons, is unaffected by frost, and its been there for that long that it stands four feet feet taller than the rest of my grass. I tried to cut it last week with my shears, yet by sheer coincedence, the bluntest part of the shears kept getting it, hence it remains. I keep looking at the chainsaw in my shed, yet each time I reach for it something happens to stop me. First visitors arrived, which made me forget about the blade of grass, then I got drunk and was rough the next day so I couldnt do anything about it. But the day after, I actually managed to pick the chainsaw up and walk up to this blade of grass, which I can now see when looking out of my window, yet just as I was about to end this once and for all I tripped and nearly impaled myself on the spiked railings on my front garden wall. I am beginning to think I should leave it as it is, as its Ta'veren twist nearly killed me that time.

[Lord Nik]

hahaha the grass tavern spinning fate and chance to fill its own needs! there hasnt been a tavern this strong since arter hawkwing, and that blade of grass

[Andrew the Great]

Balefire keeps going until it strikes a living creature.

 

I thought Mogedien's blast killed both of the oarsmen on Nynaeve's boat. If true, it must have hit one and kept going to hit the other.

Good call, forgot about that part. It would be the oarsmen being bf'd that "caused" the boat to not have gone whatever distance. There's still the matter of it filling with water.

 

Also replace living with has a soul? Maybe that doesn't cover shadowspawn...gah, it's magic ;)

 

The boat would fill with water because it's been going down the river for whatever length of time the oarsman was dead with a giant hole in it. At least, that was my interpretation.

 

hahaha the grass tavern spinning fate and chance to fill its own needs! there hasnt been a tavern this strong since arter hawkwing, and that blade of grass

 

I laughed...hard.

[MatrixM]

You're assuming that trees and plants have souls. They may not be alive like we are.

 

This may have been discussed before BUt I have noticed an incositance with balefire. For example when Rand Killed the demon dogs in rhuidian he used a "finger Thick" beam of balefire that as we all know caused the dogs to turn funky colors and no longer exist. the entire animal did. But the inconistnacy I see is that when balefire is used on say a boat (nyneave) or a building it just burns holes or slices. If rand hits a ceiling columb with Balefire it just takes a chunk out the exact size of the flow used not destroying the entire columb. Yet used on a living thing it doesn't just burn a hole through them, the entire organism is destroyed. I find this inconsisitant. Your thoughts on this?

Perhaps, unlikely though, the organism is in a different state of reality.

Looking back on that, i find that so unlikely it's wrong...I got nothing.

[Asmo]

Or perhaps, and much more simply, what Balefire destroys is the essence of the living person, without which, not even the victim's body can survive. So it's not quite the Balefire that vaporizes the body (except in Rahvin's case, where the blast was large enough to consume him, which is why the visual effect was so different), but what is needed for the human body to be sustained in the world. Inanimate objects such as stones and walls have no such essence, so the only destruction that occurs is caused directly by the beam of Balefire.

[MatrixM]

Or perhaps, and much more simply, what Balefire destroys is the essence of the living person, without which, not even the victim's body can survive. So it's not quite the Balefire that vaporizes the body (except in Rahvin's case, where the blast was large enough to consume him, which is why the visual effect was so different), but what is needed for the human body to be sustained in the world. Inanimate objects such as stones and walls have no such essence, so the only destruction that occurs is caused directly by the beam of Balefire.

I thought of that, but i was thinking more biological, which didn't really work out, not spiritual.

[leo]

Balefire is just another way to kill someone, its just that it kills them before it hits them.

 

Gonna have to disagree on this point.  It removes them all the way from the pattern.  Otherwise the DO would still be able to have brought back the Forsaken that were killed with it.

[benr]

Balefire is just another way to kill someone, its just that it kills them before it hits them.

 

Gonna have to disagree on this point.  It removes them all the way from the pattern.  Otherwise the DO would still be able to have brought back the Forsaken that were killed with it.

 

It certainly doesn't kill them before it hits them; Balefire NOT ONLY kills them, but burns their thread back for whatever amount of time is determined by the various factors of strength of Balefire, proximity, etc.

[Luckers]

Gonna have to disagree on this point.  It removes them all the way from the pattern.  Otherwise the DO would still be able to have brought back the Forsaken that were killed with it.

 

It does not remove something from the pattern completely, it burns it back in time--how much depends on the strength of the balefire used. The reason this stops the Dark One from bringing them back to life is because the Dark One must react immediately to his Chosen Ones deaths in order to secure their soul for transmigration. In effect, because with balefire the chosen has been dead for some time already when he is killed, it is already too late for him to transmigrate the soul. At least thats how RJ explained it--he also said that if the balefire were very very weak it would still be possible for the Dark One to react in time to secure the soul for transmigration. It would have to be nearly infintismal though.

 

This may have been discussed before BUt I have noticed an incositance with balefire. For example when Rand Killed the demon dogs in rhuidian he used a "finger Thick" beam of balefire that as we all know caused the dogs to turn funky colors and no longer exist. the entire animal did. But the inconistnacy I see is that when balefire is used on say a boat (nyneave) or a building it just burns holes or slices. If rand hits a ceiling columb with Balefire it just takes a chunk out the exact size of the flow used not destroying the entire columb. Yet used on a living thing it doesn't just burn a hole through them, the entire organism is destroyed. I find this inconsisitant. Your thoughts on this?

 

*shrug* my guess is like others spoken--that it has something to do with the soul. The inversion pehaps revealing or illuminating the soul. About the issue of shadowspawn having souls, i'd guess they do. Myrdraal very probably occur when the human ability to channel breeds true, and thats a soul based ability. Darkhounds were once wolves, and wolves have souls.

 

It's actually rather chilling if you think about it--for Myrdraal to occur, that means human souls--or perhaps animal souls for some, but still normal souls--are still attaching themselves to Trollocs when they are born. Imagine that.