Whats going to happen to Fain?

[Guest Dreadlord]

Exactly, Fain wanted Rand to follow him yet the Black Wind prevented it. Fain has never had control over it as far as I can remember

[RAND AL THOR]

If Fain wasnt controlling it, then why did it appear and block two gates? The only other possibility I see is Verin being BA and she may have done it-though she would need considerable strength and importance. But I think that is unlikely. I hate to think of Verin as BA.

[Mr Ares]

If Fain wasnt controlling it, then why did it appear and block two gates? The only other possibility I see is Verin being BA and she may have done it-though she would need considerable strength and importance. But I think that is unlikely. I hate to think of Verin as BA.

Verin is still bound by the first Oath, therefore is not BA. As it is, why do you assume that Fain must be controlling the BW to work against his own plan? We see a series of changes in Machin Shin following its encounter with Fain in EotW, but saying an encounter with Fain began a series of changes (such as waiting for Rand at Waygates) is a very different thing to saying that Fain is controlling it. If I start a fire, I may have caused it but that doesn't mean I can control it - "fire, I demand you move away from the door so I can make good my escape. Fire, I command you. I am your creator! OBEY ME! Please? Oh dear".

[RAND AL THOR]

I just think that there must be a specific reason for Machin Sin doing that. Its behaviour there is very peculiar and I can't think of any candidates other than Fain.

 

Or maybe it was Ta'veren? Rand would have to use the portal stones later, so it happened to give him practice? But that seems like a very very very twisted twist-even for ta'veren. :o ;D

[Guest Dreadlord]

The way I see it, the Wind is sentient, has its own free will and has the ability to learn. It is also a force of evil, and can sense other sources of evil ie Fain. Being stuck in the ways it attacks any it can, but with Fain maybe it is scared of him. It leaves Fain alone, yet it has learned that many times people follow him in the Ways, so after Fain leaves it hangs around the exit he used, hoping to catch anhyone following him. Seems like a better explanation than Fain being in control of it yet having it go against his main plan.

 

Fain being in control of MS seems to have popped up out of nowhere. He doesnt control Machin Sin OR Mashadar.

[benr]

If Fain wasnt controlling it, then why did it appear and block two gates? The only other possibility I see is Verin being BA and she may have done it-though she would need considerable strength and importance. But I think that is unlikely. I hate to think of Verin as BA.

Verin is still bound by the first Oath, therefore is not BA.

 

It certainly isn't proven that Verin is still bound by the first oath, but even so she could be of the Shadow, and not BA.  However, it is a considerable stretch to think that she could control Machan Shin.

[Luckers]

It is actually proven that she is bound by the oaths--she thinks to herself following her promise that she would not 'say' anything to the car'a'carn about Katerine's escape that she could still write it out if need be. She also dances around the truth with Beldeine about her fatigue relating to the sun a short time later. She is bound.

 

And her not being shadow is proven to in her own thoughts--about Cadsuane, about Graendal. Not to mention her actions in protecting Rand from Aes Sedai manipulation--from inciting Demira, to destabalizing Siuan and Moiraine, to compelling Aes Sedai to aid him.

 

Verin Mathwin is not a darkfriend.

[RAND AL THOR]

leaves Fain alone, yet it has learned that many times people follow him in the Ways, so after Fain leaves it hangs around the exit he used, hoping to catch anhyone following him.

 

But it's there at two entrances, not just the one that Fain used. That is the whole issue here. It is very likely not coincidence.

[Mr Ares]

But it's there at two entrances, not just the one that Fain used. That is the whole issue here. It is very likely not coincidence.

No, not a coincidence. In EotW, MS interacts with Fain - and leaves him still alive, and apparently unharmed. Thereafter, we see a series of changes in Machin Shin. In KoD, for example, large numbers of trollocs and Fades are sent into the Ways, yet Machin Shin does nothing to stop them. In TGH, we see the BW at two Waygates, in both instances waiting for Rand and trying to get at him. So, it appears that interaction with Fain in the first book catalyzed a series of changes in MS that explain its out of character behaviour thereafter. When it waits at the Waygates it doesn't do so because Fain wants it to - it works against Fain's plan of getting Rand to Toman Head. What does explain it is if Fain's ability to locate Rand and his desire to kill him rubbed off on MS, causing it to wait for Rand at the nearest Waygate, and try to kill him. But Fain is not controlling it. It acts of its own free will, as much as it can be said to have a free will. And we see its desire conflict with Fain's desire, forcing Rand to take another route to Toman Head. A longer route.

[RAND AL THOR]

In KoD, for example, large numbers of trollocs and Fades are sent into the Ways, yet Machin Shin does nothing to stop them.

 

MS doesn;t always find victims in the ways. Many have travelled and come out alive. Examples include Perrin himself in Book 4 and the trollocs travelling in Book 4. There is no data that suggests that MS always kills everyone travelling the Ways and stopped doing so after interacting with Fain.

 

In fact its behaviour in Book 4 is remarkably similar to that in Book 1. In both instances, it catches up to the travellers when they were almost out and acts just the same.

 

I do agree of course that it makes little sense that Fain is controlling MS. Its just that I see no other option and it is still more difficult to think of MS as having a logical mind and searching for Rand and blocking the gates. Then, it would always be at a gate now-whichever gate is nearest Rand at any one moment. Hence it couldn't have caught up with Perrin in Book 4.

[DemandredFO]

RAND:  There were 100,000 trollocs though that went in all at one time and came out the other side all alive.  If Machin Shin had been there it would have feasted.  In tSR the trollocs come through a few at a time and it takes a while and only afew thousand, I think attacked Emond's field.

Luckers:  what do you mean about Verin destabilizing Siuan and Moiraine and inciting Demira?

[benr]

It is actually proven that she is bound by the oaths--she thinks to herself following her promise that she would not 'say' anything to the car'a'carn about Katerine's escape that she could still write it out if need be. She also dances around the truth with Beldeine about her fatigue relating to the sun a short time later. She is bound.

 

And her not being shadow is proven to in her own thoughts--about Cadsuane, about Graendal. Not to mention her actions in protecting Rand from Aes Sedai manipulation--from inciting Demira, to destabalizing Siuan and Moiraine, to compelling Aes Sedai to aid him.

 

Verin Mathwin is not a darkfriend.

 

1. Verin is insinuating herself into the inner circle of the Light.  She needs everyone involved to believe she is bound by the Oaths.  Her goal is to get the DR to TG.  That is the goal of the DO.  Admittedly, it is also the goal of the Light, too - in fact, it is the goal of almost everyone.  Rand should just go sit and wait for everyone else to join him on SG.

 

2. Again, her thoughts about Caddy are just as easily explained by the fact that she (Caddy) has convinced her (Verin) that Caddy's goals coincide with hers - not necessarily her motives, but her goals.  If she thought Caddy was trying to keep Rand from TG, she would have poisened her.  The incitation of Demira led to Rand's kidnapping.  All of the Dark think bad thoughts about each other - Verin holds the Forsaken in relatively low esteem, definitely not in awe.  Her "suggestions" to her "compulsed" sisters to aid Rand are, again, designed to get him to TG; and some of those pledged are Black.

 

If your assumption is that Verin is NOT of the Shadow, all of her actions lead one way.  If, on the other hand, you assume the opposite, they mean something else.  Most agree with you, Luckers - you are very persuasive, very knowledgable, and usually right.  You might not be this time, though.

[Mr Ares]

In KoD, for example, large numbers of trollocs and Fades are sent into the Ways, yet Machin Shin does nothing to stop them.

MS doesn;t always find victims in the ways. Many have travelled and come out alive. Examples include Perrin himself in Book 4 and the trollocs travelling in Book 4. There is no data that suggests that MS always kills everyone travelling the Ways and stopped doing so after interacting with Fain.

Previously it was impossible to move large numbers through the Ways, because it would attract the attention of MS. Now it is possible to move hundreds of thousands through in a very short space of time. There is a change in its behaviour.

 

I do agree of course that it makes little sense that Fain is controlling MS. Its just that I see no other option and it is still more difficult to think of MS as having a logical mind and searching for Rand and blocking the gates. Then, it would always be at a gate now-whichever gate is nearest Rand at any one moment. Hence it couldn't have caught up with Perrin in Book 4.

Would you say animals had logical minds? Fain's desire to catch and kill Rand, and his ability to find him, rubbed off on MS, hence it finding Rand and attempting to kill him. It was functioning on instinct. And you see no other option despite the fact I have given you one? And it has continued to change after its encounter with Fain, to the extent that it wasn't attracted to the vast numbers of Shadowspawn sent into the Ways, even though it shold have been.

 

1. Verin is insinuating herself into the inner circle of the Light. She needs everyone involved to believe she is bound by the Oaths. Her goal is to get the DR to TG.  That is the goal of the DO. Admittedly, it is also the goal of the Light, too - in fact, it is the goal of almost everyone. Rand should just go sit and wait for everyone else to join him on SG.

So she is insinuating her way into the inner circle of the Light by being bond to the first Oath and doing absolutely nothing to benefit the cause of the Shadow over the Light, quite the reverse, even when such actions would be nigh on impossible for anyone to discover? Everything she says in PoD Prologue is true - and yet we have her POV, we see how she dances round the truth. We see how she misleads. But if she did outright lie then who would know? If she lied to Beldeine feel faint, for example, how would anyone know it was a lie, unless they already knew what she was up to? But she didn't, she used typical Aes Sedai tricks to mislead. You have not one tiny shred of evdence that hints at her not being of the Light. Mysterious, yes. Darkfriend? No chance in hell.

 

If your assumption is that Verin is NOT of the Shadow, all of her actions lead one way. If, on the other hand, you assume the opposite, they mean something else.  Most agree with you, Luckers - you are very persuasive, very knowledgable, and usually right. You might not be this time, though.

You could say the same about anyones actions. Sure, Rand wants to get to TG, but if you assume that he wants to defeat Shai'tan you come to one conclusion, but if you assume that he wants to defect at the Last Battle then you come to quite another. Rand is obviously a very deep cover DF, so deep even he doesn't know about it. But you just watch the Way he takes over the forces of the Light. You try and tell me that there is nothing sinister about his motivation. He is clearly deep in the Shadow. Padan Fain is the true good guy of the series.

[RAND AL THOR]

Fain's desire to catch and kill Rand, and his ability to find him, rubbed off on MS, hence it finding Rand and attempting to kill him. It was functioning on instinct.

 

That is a very weird conclusion. All we know is that MS fled from Fain as soon as it touched him. Imagining that certain stuff rubbed off from Fain etc... seems a bit stretched to me.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Also stretched is the notion that the horde that attacked the Manor made it through the Ways unmolested.

 

We have no idea how many Trollocs and Fades entered, we only have an approximation for how many made it through.

 

The best indication that Verin is not Dark, IMO, is that she is one of only two people who know the current location of the Horn of Valere.  Securing the Horn has consistently been a major objective for the Dark.  A practicing DF would have taken it to SG long since.  We have no indication that the Dark has it, or even a vague idea where it might be.

[Guest Dreadlord]

OK, I am suffering from major confusion here. Have I missed something? I dont even remember Fain coming into contact with Machin Sin, and it seems like all this talk of him being in control of it has leapt out of thin air. Has Fain ever encountered Machin Sin as far as we know? Is there any real evidence behind him being in control of it, or part of him rubbing off onto it, or whatever?

 

The only thing I remember that connects Fain and Machin Sin is the basic fact that Fain has used the Ways. As I said, I cant remember any sort of encounter between them, so saying Fain is in control of the Black Wind seems not at all different from saying Rand is in control of it, or Moiraine, or even Loial, since they have had the same relationship with MS that Fain has, which is to say none. Am I missing something?

 

Also, I doubt very much that Fain controls Mashadar, because there is no evidence behind that either. People seem to think Fain owns all the evil not connected to the Shadow, and I cant see any reason for it.

[bad company]

actually in the books it is mentioned that fain and the black wind did contact eachother and that half of the black wind ran away and the other half saw him like a brother, something like that

[Mr Ares]

Fain's desire to catch and kill Rand, and his ability to find him, rubbed off on MS, hence it finding Rand and attempting to kill him. It was functioning on instinct.

That is a very weird conclusion. All we know is that MS fled from Fain as soon as it touched him. Imagining that certain stuff rubbed off from Fain etc... seems a bit stretched to me.

We see a change in its behaviour after its encounter with Fain. First the fleeing, then the waiting/hunting Rand. Then a massive army being able to traverse the Ways despite the fact that such a huge army should have attracted it and been wiped out. And the first change we see is after Fain. All changes date back to that. And it subsequently takes on an aspect of his behaviour. Why is it stretched? It fits the evidence. Indeed, it fits it far better than anything else.

 

We have no idea how many Trollocs and Fades entered, we only have an approximation for how many made it through.

We have an approximation. Moridin says a hundred Myddraal and thousands of trollocs in KoD 3. Thousands of trollocs sent in, thousands come out....we have nothing to indicate that they lost any appreciable portion of their army, which they surely should have done if they had encountered the Black Wind.

 

OK, I am suffering from major confusion here. Have I missed something? I dont even remember Fain coming into contact with Machin Sin, and it seems like all this talk of him being in control of it has leapt out of thin air. Has Fain ever encountered Machin Sin as far as we know? Is there any real evidence behind him being in control of it, or part of him rubbing off onto it, or whatever?

Yes, you're missing something. Fan follows Rand and co through the Ways to Shienar in EotW. While they escape the Ways just in time, Fain is caught, but MS leaves rather than killing him. When Moiraine interrogates Fain later, she learns this. Next time we see the BW is in TGH, waiting at the Waygate in Barthane's manor. It calls Rand's name and tries to escape the Ways, both examples of behaviour distinctly out of character for Machin Shin. Later, it is waiting at stedding Tsofu. Again, out of character. As this unusual behaviour dates back, so far as we can see, to its first encounter with Fain, it's not unreasonable to assume that Fain has caused the changes in some way. As it doesn't appear to be operating under Fain's instructions, its actions being unhelpful for Fains's goal of getting Rand to Toman Head, we can be fairly sure he isn't controlling it. However, the ability to hunt Rand and desire to kill him are typical of Fain, and as they appear to be present in MS since encountering Fain, I suggest that something of Fain rubbed off on MS. Unless anyone has a better idea?

[benr]

 

1. Verin is insinuating herself into the inner circle of the Light. She needs everyone involved to believe she is bound by the Oaths. Her goal is to get the DR to TG.  That is the goal of the DO. Admittedly, it is also the goal of the Light, too - in fact, it is the goal of almost everyone. Rand should just go sit and wait for everyone else to join him on SG.

So she is insinuating her way into the inner circle of the Light by being bond to the first Oath and doing absolutely nothing to benefit the cause of the Shadow over the Light, quite the reverse, even when such actions would be nigh on impossible for anyone to discover? Everything she says in PoD Prologue is true - and yet we have her POV, we see how she dances round the truth. We see how she misleads. But if she did outright lie then who would know? If she lied to Beldeine feel faint, for example, how would anyone know it was a lie, unless they already knew what she was up to? But she didn't, she used typical Aes Sedai tricks to mislead. You have not one tiny shred of evdence that hints at her not being of the Light. Mysterious, yes. Darkfriend? No chance in hell.

 

Other than a direct lie, which you dismiss because she can't lie. 

 

If your assumption is that Verin is NOT of the Shadow, all of her actions lead one way. If, on the other hand, you assume the opposite, they mean something else.  Most agree with you, Luckers - you are very persuasive, very knowledgable, and usually right. You might not be this time, though.

You could say the same about anyones actions. Sure, Rand wants to get to TG, but if you assume that he wants to defeat Shai'tan you come to one conclusion, but if you assume that he wants to defect at the Last Battle then you come to quite another. Rand is obviously a very deep cover DF, so deep even he doesn't know about it. But you just watch the Way he takes over the forces of the Light. You try and tell me that there is nothing sinister about his motivation. He is clearly deep in the Shadow. Padan Fain is the true good guy of the series.

 

Hmm...could be.  Maybe it was Rand balefiring forces of the Shadow, or cursing the DO and fighting him in his dreams, or...or...oh wait, maybe you were being facetious.  That's always a good tactic in debate.  And yet, it IS the target of the Shadow to have the DR at TG.  Everyone is trying to use the DR for their own purposes; for most, it means having him at TG.  It would be very surprising to me if the Dark hasn't gotten someone into a trusted position with the DR prior to TG, so he can be betrayed.  For me, Verin is the most likely.

[RAND AL THOR]

Extract from Eye of the World:

 

"Then Fain was the one you sensed following us," Egwene said. Lan nodded. "How did he escape the . .. the Black Wind?" Her voice shook; she stopped to swallow. "It was right behind us at the Waygate."

 

"He escaped, and he did not," Moiraine said. "The Black Wind caught him-and he claimed to understand the voices. Some greeted him as like to them; others feared him. No sooner did the Wind envelop Fain than it fled."

 

ok dreadlord?

 

 

We have no idea how many Trollocs and Fades entered, we only have an approximation for how many made it through.

We have an approximation. Moridin says a hundred Myddraal and thousands of trollocs in KoD 3. Thousands of trollocs sent in, thousands come out....we have nothing to indicate that they lost any appreciable portion of their army, which they surely should have done if they had encountered the Black Wind.

 

 

Since obviously Moridin did not send those trollocs and mydraal, how could he possibly know how many went IN? That makes no sense at all. He doesnt even know through which waygate they were sent.

 

The most likely answer is that he found out from one of the DF with Rand about the trolloc attack. That would mean that he only recognizes the number of trollocs that exited the Ways and he presumed that the same number entered.

 

There is no proof at all that the number of trollocs that entered the Ways in KOD is the same as the number that left. I am inclined to think that MS did indeed get some of them. And remember, that there is no proof that a 100 000 trollocs just went marching in at once. They could have travelled the ways in small packs and assembled.

 

Ares, I think you are placing too much importance on this trolloc stuff in KOD.

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

And, Moridin's arithmetic ( or Jordan's ) is off, anyway.

 

From earlier books we learn that a Myrddraal can only link with, and control, 10 Trollocs.  So, if only 100 Fades were ordered into the Ways, then they could have taken no more than 1000 Trollocs with them.

 

Since the number we're given in the aftermath of the battle at the Manor is 100,000, there must have actually been 10,000 Fades, not 100.

[RAND AL THOR]

Bob you forget something,

 

It is not essential for Mydraal to link with trollocs. And actually we have seen some instances ( I think in the Stone of Tear) where MYdraal link with well more than 10 trollocs.

 

In the Stone of Tear battle there is a scene where a character kills a myrdraal and expresses regret that it was NOT linked to any trollocs. So there you have it.

 

Arithmetic is somewhat correct. But how many entered the Ways remains a  ???

[Bob T Dwarf]

Yes, it does.

 

Trollocs do not work and play well with others.  From what we're shown at various places in the books, it's apparent that, in the absence of control, and without a clear exterior enemy in front of them, Trollocs squabble among themselves.  And, it's not of the, "MOM!  He's touching me!" variety.  They use sharp pointy things and sharp edged things.

 

So, without tight and absolute control of all of the Trollocs they were shepherding through the Ways, the Fades would have been dealing with wholesale fratricide on an unimaginable scale.  That's aside from whatever loses they might experience due to Machin Shin.

 

So, again, we have an idea about how many came out of the Ways, but how many went in is highly problematical. 

[Mr Ares]

Since obviously Moridin did not send those trollocs and mydraal, how could he possibly know how many went IN? That makes no sense at all. He doesnt even know through which waygate they were sent.

But he knows who sent them - Sammael, or someone posing as him.

 

The most likely answer is that he found out from one of the DF with Rand about the trolloc attack. That would mean that he only recognizes the number of trollocs that exited the Ways and he presumed that the same number entered.

So Moridin finds out about the number of trollocs killed and then travels back in time by about a week to have a meeting to tell people that Sammael has been seen ordering a bunch of trollocs and Fades into the Ways, despite the fact that Sammael was not at Rand's end, nor was anyone posing as him. Doesn't work. Moridin knew how many were sent in. He must have learned from sources at the in end, not the out end.

 

There is no proof at all that the number of trollocs that entered the Ways in KOD is the same as the number that left. I am inclined to think that MS did indeed get some of them. And remember, that there is no proof that a 100 000 trollocs just went marching in at once. They could have travelled the ways in small packs and assembled.

If anything, the number leaving is bigger. 100,000 came out, we are only told that "thousands" were sent in. 100,000 is still thousands, but I'm not sure how much bigger the army could be for it to still sound reasonable to say "thousands" when the number going in is in the tens or hundreds of thousands. As for going in small packs and assembling, we are still talking about a large number of troops moving over a short period of time, and all aiming to exit at the same point. How many bands would you need to move through? How long would it take, if you only have a few bands at a time? I'm not convinced.

 

Ares, I think you are placing too much importance on this trolloc stuff in KOD.

Did my name drop a Mr or something? Get it right. The evidence does not favour your explanation. The number of trollocs coming out was big, and any group of that size would have brought MS. It didn't. Change in Machin Shin. Fact.

 

Bob, do you have a source for your 10 trollocs to one Fade figure? Also, we have seen other instances of unbalanced numbers of trollocs and Fades. In TSR 44 500 trollocs and just 3 Myddraal are involved in the attack on Emond's Field. There were an estimated 50 Neverborn at most, to thousands of trollocs. Seems your arithmatic may be weaker than RJ's.

[RAND AL THOR]

I have to admit an error on my side here.

 

Moridin tells the Forsaken :

 

"Pass orders to your Friends of the Dark. Any reports of trollocs or myrdraal outside the blight is to be handed to me immediately."

 

This implies that Moridin doesn;t know where they came out and had the count from the number that entered. Furthermore, the time frame is also incorrect,as Ares pointed out. Moridin says all this BEFORE the attack! LOL

 

Did my name drop a Mr or something? Get it right.

 

You called Bob T Dwarf, just Bob, so I am calling you just Ares.  ;D