Misunderstanding regarding "pillow friends."

[Darth_Andrea]

It's very simple. If you don't like to think about Pillow-Firends as a lesbian act and just a really close friendship fine do that. But for some of us, Like Me, its a pretty cool thing to see a lesbian or bi-sexual relationship showed as a common point of society, fictional or other wise. I myself and Lesbian and to see this incorperated in these novels as just points of information without dwelling on the pros and cons of it or how it shatters reality is really enjoyable. I also see it as showing a sensual side to these women. Who we see mostly as hard and dangerous warriors for the light. And like I said if you don't like it interperate in your own way and leave the rest of us alone please.

 

 

[glow=green,1,500]Darth_Andrea[/glow]           

 

[RAND AL THOR]

I have only just come back to this thread after originally posting it and I am astounded by the responses. Many of the responses were very illuminating.

Back to the original topic though, Luckers stated that RJ himself had claimed that pillow friends were more than friends. If so, then I accept this immediately.

 

I still cannot whole-heartedly accept that the novices were homo/bisexual. Mind you people, I have NOTHING against homo/bisexuality. A person's sexuality is his own to decide. However, we dont see many of these novices being interested in females afterwards do we? Quite the contrary. Also, Siuan mentions in the beginning of the Great Hunt, that she and Moiraine used to daydream of marrying great princes. It seems odd that they would dream so while having a somewhat homosexual relationship.

 

I truly didnt expect 5 pages of replies. And furthermore, an Aes Sedai from Salidar tries to regain Eliada's friendship later in the series right? Elaida refers to  then having been pillow friends. If they had been in an intimate relationship, why did she get so emotionally distant from that Aes Sedai??? ???

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

I wonder if perhaps it isn't precisely the opposite of what some people are implying...

 

Suppose the acceptance of sexual experimentation and homosexuality in Randland is what has led to so many deviants (from the heterosexual norm), rather than such acceptance being the result of necessary relief.

 

Let's imagine the Age of Legends, in terms of sexuality, in a way very similar to today. What if procreation was even more unecessary, and children were created by some scientific process. In such a case, without a species survival mechanism being the drive behind the urge, such people would be left an indiscriminatory sexual drive, because the object would only then be physical relief.

 

If the resultant acceptance of deviation persists culturally for the next 2,000 years or so (I realize that is somewhat of a stretch), then could it be the primary reason novices so often engage in deviance?

 

I think if one looks at it from a heterosexual standpoint, when put in that position, doesn't the One Power provide the best method of sexual relief, if that's all one needs?

 

And then the emotional bond could still exist between novices, without any need for anything more.

 

Personal experience, for me, seems to validate this. I find myself attracted to people who are much different from me. If I was a novice, I can't think of anything other than a cultural acceptance providing sufficient persuasiveness for experimentation. Suffering the same problems, experiencing the same things, and sharing that sort of psychological bond would only serve to make the other less attractive.

[RAND AL THOR]

doesn't the One Power provide the best method of sexual relief, if that's all one needs?

 

 

How so? Holding the power raises your awareness of your surroundings and makes your sense sharper. It doesn't quench your hunger/thirst etc...so why should it satisfy sexual desire???

[BrainFireBob]

You're thinking of homosexuality (situational) as being all-or-nothing, either gay or not.

 

It's pretty clear situational homosexuality for many novices, with a large number of lesbian Aes Sedai, primarily in the Red (this is the coded meaning of many of them "having no liking for men.")

[Zhakar]

How so? Holding the power raises your awareness of your surroundings and makes your sense sharper. It doesn't quench your hunger/thirst etc...so why should it satisfy sexual desire???

 

Add a simple weave of solid air and..

[Heavy As Stone]

Wow, this thread is ridiculous.

 

I'm sorry, but anybody who reads about pillow friends and denies that there is a sexual aspect to it is either blind or naive. It doesn't make the Aes Sedai involved homosexuals, either. Give me a break. This isn't one of those things where it means to you whatever you want it to mean. They are hormonal, stressed-out, developing young females who are under an EXTREME amount of pressure, and they need a release. Wow, some people can be so blind. I can understand missing the little hints that RJ drops here and there... its not as if he comes out and writes erotica... but to be so willfully blind? Come on.

 

 

[Graendals favourite]

Add a simple weave of solid air and..

I really shouldn't say this, but I believe the classic phrase goes, ...and you'll never leave the house.  8)

 

 

But yea, WoT is great also in that it's a place where many of the current western prejudices don't exist: the cultures are different from our western ones. So you have a window into something else, women do not need to be slaves, social interaction between people need not be reduced to reproduction, that sort of thing. Really, if in fantasy you can't step outside the square, then it's quite a narrow fantasy.

[RAND AL THOR]

Wow, this thread is ridiculous.

 

I'm sorry, but anybody who reads about pillow friends and denies that there is a sexual aspect to it is either blind or naive.

 

 

Rather crude. I did not link 'pillow friends' to homosexual acts till the sea folk affair. I was unsure even then.

 

Perhaps ,Heavy as stone, you should read all the comments posted under this thread before stating that stuff is 'ridiculous?'

[Daphilip]

Why does people talk about the credibility of "pillow-friends"?

 

It's RJ'S world! If he says that "pillow-friends" is a normal act, then no one can say it isn't.

 

If he would've wanted he could have made the whole population gay, the sun blue, the sky yellow and the earth flat without anyone telling him it's wrong!

 

That's up to RJ (now BS)... He can even change the laws of physic's if he wants to.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

I think, because of RJ's suggestion that our world was his, in yet another turning, people try to find logical explanations for his world just as they do our world. And naturally, some things don't seem to fit certain worldviews.

[balefireruinssteaks]

It's kind of like how everyone freaked out because the movie Alexander incorporated his own bisexuality.

 

Ultimately, in some cultures the idea of a man and a man or a woman and a woman are just not that big of a deal.  As long as the relationship is not detremental to society or to the two people involved, it's really just something that is accepted.

 

In RJ's world, this is how he saw it.  Sometimes in a single-gender situation, sexual and emotional connections are made between two people of the same gender.  This is true in our society as well as Rand's society.  When that situation is over, sometimes the people involved revert to an opposite gender attraction and other times they continue on in same-sex relationships. 

 

I just don't see why this is so shocking.  I know America is conservative but it can't be THAT backwards.

[metria31183]

I just don't see why this is so shocking.  I know America is conservative but it can't be THAT backwards.

 

Trust me it can and is in some places.  Rural America is much more conservative than urban America.  The north (New York, Boston, etc.) is less conservative than the south (Georgia, Texas, etc) and the west is less conservative than the east.  Unfortunately that's just how is her.

[Heavy As Stone]

Rather crude. I did not link 'pillow friends' to homosexual acts till the sea folk affair. I was unsure even then.

 

Perhaps ,Heavy as stone, you should read all the comments posted under this thread before stating that stuff is 'ridiculous?'

 

Oh, I backread the entire thread. Don't act all offended because you weren't 'in' on what RJ was suggesting. But moreso than people who may have suspected but weren't sure (like yourself), I think I get more frustrated by the people who know what it means, but still choose to deny it for whatever reason. That is really lame.

[benr]

Yes,  Intolerance is intolerance, no matter what the guise.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

I just don't see why this is so shocking.  I know America is conservative but it can't be THAT backwards.

 

It doesn't have anything to do with being backwards. It has everything to do with the sensitivity of some people towards homosexuality. And naturally, people prefer what is comfortable to what isn't. And even those people who accept homosexuality as an alternative lifestyle don't necessarily wish to talk about the issue much at all.

 

Don't act all offended because you weren't 'in' on what RJ was suggesting.

 

That wasn't why he was offended, I don't believe. I think he was offended because you suggested those who weren't "in" on it were "blind or naive."

 

Yes,  Intolerance is intolerance, no matter what the guise.

 

There is being intolerant, and then there is preferring not to talk about or read about something.

 

Would you feel that comfortable reading about an incestual relationship?

 

I don't think I would, and not simply because I believe it is wrong. In that sense (and only that sense), I think incest and homosexuality are similar for many people.

[benr]

In reading fiction, you open yourself up to many ideas and circumstances that are not comfortable, not something you would ever consider doing yourself, things that you find morally reprehensible, etc.  When properly used, certain characters have those traits.  Actually, I find the use of torture in the WOT very disturbing, but it is an integral part of the story.  The Aiel have no compunction about taking lives, and no fear of death - both are very different to how I feel (a true coward), but it is an important part of their way of life.  And there are consequences for some pillow friends - whether real or imagined - ask Ailil and Shalon (in WH).  Cadsuane has little compunction in using their fear of discovery against them.  So you see, RJ presents several sides of situations.  It is called creating realism within your created world, and RJ has created the deepest and most creative world out there, with all of the vagaries (and more!) of the world in which he lived. To argue against this inclusion comes dangerously close to censorship. Now, if the problem is just that someone is uncomfortable discussing this specific topic, there are many (many!) threads to be involved in.  There are certainly many that interest me very little, and so I avoid them.

 

[Graendals favourite]

I for one find the level of tolerance in WoT very refreshing. Just the fundamental approach to differences has that much less of xenophobia than what you find in our world. It is a different culture overall in Randland, though they have their strange quirks as well. Anyway, as you see in the beginning, Rand is physically different from others in Emond's Field, but none save a few Coplins (as children), made fun of his light eyes. So he is not thought of as different for having features from outside. Rand remarks he and Tam are considered out of the ordinary for being two men living together: out of the ordinary, not unheard of, and certainly not something to secretly despise, it is only that mostly people have large extended families living together at their farms.

 

Sometimes you encounter in our world, even or perhaps especially in places where tolerance is the norm, attitudes that it is expected that on the surface other cultures or people or lifestyles or tastes are tolerated, but that it must still be understood by everyone that these different people can never be considered on par with those who do not stick out from the masses. In those situations you have these very lengthy and unnecessary explanations of why 'this or that' is alright after all, though these people themselves (for whatever reasons) would not touch 'this or that' with a ten foot pole (as they will unfailingly hasten to add), and how 'this and that' is very different from a different level of 'that and this' which of course is completely alright also (though in a different way). Yet unless the people truly were interested in discussing differences between people, if 'this or that' were simply out of the ordinary and not 'alright', there would be no need for any fusses or explanations, the differences themselves likely being self-evident and non-important to everyone. I don't know if this makes what I mean very clear, but I don't miss these kinds of attitudes anywhere, the least when I read fiction.

 

So in Randland culture it is the norm that your own way need not be the best way for everyone, even though they often don't understand the different ways, but even more thankfully, WoT is not a book about tolerance, it is a fantasy book with a world with cultures different from ours and different people living in their world as they see best. Naturally Randlanders are not genderless asexual beings, but sex is not very central to the story.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

It is called creating realism within your created world, and RJ has created the deepest and most creative world out there, with all of the vagaries (and more!) of the world in which he lived. To argue against this inclusion comes dangerously close to censorship.

 

Yeah, your right. But I'm not advocating exclusion of homosexuality from books. I'm merely explaining why I think some people feel/think the way they do.

[Ilyena]

It is called creating realism within your created world, and RJ has created the deepest and most creative world out there, with all of the vagaries (and more!) of the world in which he lived. To argue against this inclusion comes dangerously close to censorship.

Honestly, while I love RJ and his unique story line that does embellish all that fantasy is, I don't think his world is the deepest or most creative. If you're looking for deep and creative worl, try Steven Erikson's books, Jim Butchers (Harry Dresdan is phenominal) and George RR Martin.

Before I get bashed for mentioning other authors, let me repeat that RJ's stories are my favourite, but not neccesarily for depth.

 

 

[benr]

There are different types of depth, and other authors have done some things better than RJ (I like Tad Williams "Otherworld" alot, too; Orson Scott Card and the Alvin Maker and Ender series; etc.), but for the over-all alternative reality I've never encountered the wide number of intriguing, believable characters (infuriating as some may be), or anyone that provides so much information that so many of you can have discussions way beyond what is in the books.  You all boggle my mind, but it goes back to such strong background to base your ideas on.  Plus, the magic system is very consistent.  In any case, it doesn't seem to me that anything/one has been placed in the WOT for shock value; everyone fits within the construct of the world  (Well, maybe Caddy a little bit).  So many times I've read fantasy/SciFi, or watched movies, etc. and thought "where the heck did that come from?"  Just one old man's opinion. I like Martin, but his creations aren't nearly as intricate in the magics; great characters, though.  I'll check out some of your other suggestions; thanks. 

[Almearafan]

I am not saying it isn't real. I am saying that while some people can or will do it, most of us won't. Look at Elayne and Egwene and Nynave for example. They didn't. The void that Elayne felt, the emptyness or the comfort she seeks could have only come from Rand.

 

And you have no idea how much stress I am in or my situation. And I wouldn't still do it. I find it repulsive. I have some very close friend, and the very idea make me want to die or throw up.

 

They can't fill my void, I need some one of opposite sex, a female, whome I love(at present there is none, apart from some fictional character like Aviendha and Kahlan)...as deluded as I am, I just can't see how.

 

That kind of emptyness or void can only be filled with that kind of love. The homosexual being whome they are, I guess they can find that kind of love in same sex, But I can't see how anyone who isn't born homo, make themselves do it.

 

If you are a believer, than there is a perfect example. Creator created EVE to fill Adams loneliness not another man.

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure that no one on this board is trying to get you to convert.  Believe me we 'homos' as you seem to want to call us would not welcome you into the fold with an attitude like yours anyway. 

 

Further, I'm quite sure that this thread was started to talk about pillow friends as it pertains to the series of books written by RJ, NOT to highlight how you personally feel about the fact that RJ has written them into his series.  If you don't like the fact that RJ wrote them into his series as normal every day people, then stop reading the series.  It's a pretty simple solution.

 

I'm fairly sure that religious beliefs were not what this thread was intended for either.

 

And in closing, with an attitude like that, it's no wonder you're having heavy personal problems in your life.  Anyone that's as filled with animosity towards other human beings as you are, ends up reaping what they sow.

[RAND AL THOR]

 

Don't act all offended because you weren't 'in' on what RJ was suggesting.

 

That wasn't why he was offended, I don't believe. I think he was offended because you suggested those who weren't "in" on it were "blind or naive."

 

 

 

Correct.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

I am not saying it isn't real. I am saying that while some people can or will do it, most of us won't. Look at Elayne and Egwene and Nynave for example. They didn't. The void that Elayne felt, the emptyness or the comfort she seeks could have only come from Rand.

 

And you have no idea how much stress I am in or my situation. And I wouldn't still do it. I find it repulsive. I have some very close friend, and the very idea make me want to die or throw up.

 

They can't fill my void, I need some one of opposite sex, a female, whome I love(at present there is none, apart from some fictional character like Aviendha and Kahlan)...as deluded as I am, I just can't see how.

 

That kind of emptyness or void can only be filled with that kind of love. The homosexual being whome they are, I guess they can find that kind of love in same sex, But I can't see how anyone who isn't born homo, make themselves do it.

 

If you are a believer, than there is a perfect example. Creator created EVE to fill Adams loneliness not another man.

 

Further, I'm quite sure that this thread was started to talk about pillow friends as it pertains to the series of books written by RJ, NOT to highlight how you personally feel about the fact that RJ has written them into his series.  If you don't like the fact that RJ wrote them into his series as normal every day people, then stop reading the series.  It's a pretty simple solution.

 

But the problem is that how he personally feels about the issue of homosexuality in real life has led him to perceive the deviance in Randland as incredible, assuming relations in Randland work the way they do in our world, which is how things are supposed to be set up. And since, unless we deny RJ's own words, the issue brought to question to begin with has already been resolved, then other things pertaining to pillow friends should be open for discussion.

 

I do think, though, that it has gone far beyond what is approvable.  What needs be said is this: Not everyone in Randland is a pillow friend. This has never been suggested. Nor has it been inferred that within all of us (or the novices, if you will) lies the capacity to love another of the same sex romantically. So while, in this world or that, you may never be inclined to experiment sexually, that does not mean that others will not.

 

The world is the way it is, and the people in it live and love in different ways. You can disagree with it however much you want. But don't deny reality. Whether it is choice or not is irrelevant. It simply is. And as in our world, so it is in RJ's.