Misunderstanding regarding "pillow friends."

[RAND AL THOR]

For some reason, a lot of people are assuming that the term 'pillow friends' in the WOT refers to homosexual people. I think this is highly unlikely. A lot of Aes Sedai comment on having had pillow friends when they were novices. This very likely merely means that they were best friends. This could even by applied to Moiraine and Siuan.

 

My opinion: pillow friends are very close friends. Nothing more.

 

Feel free to comment. :D

[42Bonzo88]

    I can't remember the exact dialougue, but Eladia was talking in KOD to her new keeper, about an Aes Sedai who was a pillowfriend with Eladia and was maybe trying to make the connection again. The Keeper was a little confused that Eladia might want to do so, because she thought that pillowfriends were only for Novices and Accepted to help get them through the rigors of training. Besides she liked Men better.

    It was something like that, so it makes it sound like a little more than a close friendship. Why would close friendships have to die out and did it mean after you had become an Aes Sedai you would have no need for close friends?

 

Just my opinion.

[Luckers]

Not much to comment on. Pillow friends are female friends who have a sexual relationship--at least in the White Tower. Other lands have other names for it. Aside from RJ having confirmed this in the blog...

 

Pillow friends are not just good friends. Oh, they are that, too, but they also get hot and sweaty together and muss up the sheets something fierce. By the way, pillow friends is a term used in the White Tower. The same relationship between men or women elsewhere would be called something else, depending on the country.

 

[The Official Robert Jordan Blog, September 30, 2005]

 

... it is also stated in the books...

 

“…I had a little talk alone with Shalon. After a little gentle questioning, she spilled out the whole story, and Ailil confirmed everything once she realized I already knew. Soon after the Sea Folk first arrived here, Ailil approached Shalon hoping to learn what they wanted with young al’Thor. For her part, Shalon wanted to learn whatever she could about him, and about the situation here. That led to meetings, which led to friendship, which led to them becoming pillow-friends. As much from loneliness as anything else, I suspect. In any case, that was what they were hiding more than their mutual snooping.”

 

“They put up with days under the question to hide that?” Cadsuane said incredulously… Verin’s eyes twinkled with suppressed mirth.

 

“Cairhienin are prim and prudish, Cadsuane, in public at least. They might carry on like rabbits when the curtains are drawn, but they wouldn’t admit to touching their own husbands if anyone might overhear! And the Sea Folk are almost as strait-laced. At least, Shalon is married to a man with duties elsewhere, and breaking marriage vows is a very serious crime…”

 

[Winter’s Heart, Wonderful News]

 

And yes, Moiraine and Siuan were pillow friends.

 

 

[anamul]

There is entirely too much pillow friend going on is WOT, if you ask me.To help themselves get through training in White tower, is a lame excuse for becoming homosexual. People just can't do this.They have to born homo to contemplate such acts, no matter how lonely one is.

 

Personaly I think,that kind of lonelyness isn't something you can overcome with mindless sex. When I say lonely, I mean emptyness of the heart and soul. You need some one to sustain you through some dreadful ordeal or difficult phase of your life.That some one has to be some one you love. In short, soul mate.

 

I myself is going through a difficult phase in my life and I am lonely, and I never for a second think any kind of sex can or will help me. I seek a soul mate, a woman I can love and be intimate with. And I detest homosexuality. Nothing against them, but I just don't like it. Make me want to vomit.

 

 

[trakand_01]

Until the Ailil/Shalon thing, I had always held the understanding that pillow friends were simply very close friends who sometimes slept together, so that they didnt have to sleep alone. Cried together, screamed at each other when frustration overtook them, and hugged each other to sleep when homesickness set in.

 

The Ailil/Shalon thing confused me a bit though. Perhaps it does refer to a sexual relationship.

 

However I would stress that I believe it is entirely possible to have 'a relationship' without the sex.

[MystErikEry]

There is entirely too much pillow friend going on is WOT, if you ask me.To help themselves get through training in White tower, is a lame excuse for becoming homosexual. People just can't do this.They have to born homo to contemplate such acts, no matter how lonely one is.

 

Personaly I think,that kind of lonelyness isn't something you can overcome with mindless sex. When I say lonely, I mean emptyness of the heart and soul. You need some one to sustain you through some dreadful ordeal or difficult phase of your life.That some one has to be some one you love. In short, soul mate.

 

I myself is going through a difficult phase in my life and I am lonely, and I never for a second think any kind of sex can or will help me. I seek a soul mate, a woman I can love and be intimate with. And I detest homosexuality. Nothing against them, but I just don't like it. Make me want to vomit.

 

Pillow friends don't just have mindless sex.  They love each other deeply - to each other, they're that "some one" that can sustain them through the difficult phase.  That kind of deep love can most certainly lead to homosexual acts, and most definitely doesn't mean those involved ARE homosexuals.

 

I myself know many people who have had homosexual encounters and are not homosexual.  They've had *meaningful* relationships that include a physical aspect with people of the same gender - not romantic relationships, but with people they cared for deeply - and they still include getting married to someone of the opposite gender and having children as one of their life's goals.

 

Similarly, the Novices and Accepted (usually, it seems) move on from their relationships as they mature into Aes Sedai just as those I've mentioned move on to their own phases in their lives.

 

It may be that you don't like it, but that doesn't make it not the case :) RJ has explained himself what "pillow friend" truly means, and I know for certain that it happens in the real world, too.

[trakand_01]

I'm so pleased, this is the perfect example (differing points of view) as to why I started the 'different points of view' thread. It really does help you understand where people are coming from  :)

[cheyjade]

People just can't do this.They have to born homo to contemplate such acts, no matter how lonely one is.

 

People who are stressed out and in need of comforting can and do have sex. Look up the words bisexual and bicurious. Like MystErikEry, I know people who have experimented with others of the same sex, and then go on to stick strictly to heterosexual relationships.  And vice versa.  Maybe RJ did too, and based 'pillow friends' off of real people he knew.

 

It (pillow friends) seems entirely plausible to me.

[Saidar]

What about the Black Tower?

 

Do the guys over there have pillow friends? Or are they just called butt-buddies?

[anamul]

I am not saying it isn't real. I am saying that while some people can or will do it, most of us won't. Look at Elayne and Egwene and Nynave for example. They didn't. The void that Elayne felt, the emptyness or the comfort she seeks could have only come from Rand.

 

And you have no idea how much stress I am in or my situation. And I wouldn't still do it. I find it repulsive. I have some very close friend, and the very idea make me want to die or throw up.

 

They can't fill my void, I need some one of opposite sex, a female, whome I love(at present there is none, apart from some fictional character like Aviendha and Kahlan)...as deluded as I am, I just can't see how.

 

That kind of emptyness or void can only be filled with that kind of love. The homosexual being whome they are, I guess they can find that kind of love in same sex, But I can't see how anyone who isn't born homo, make themselves do it.

 

If you are a believer, than there is a perfect example. Creator created EVE to fill Adams loneliness not another man.

[Jehaine]

Though since Eve was created from Adam's rib, you could technically state that man gave birth to woman.

 

ANYWAY...

 

Though i myself don't really feel the need to have a 'pillow friend' myself regardless of how much stress is piled on me, in order to understand it i think people need to look at the Novices themselves.

 

They are effectively cut off from their previous lives, and thrown into celibacy at pretty much the height of puberty. Yes, there are guys there too (which they aren't allowed to see without supervision / permission) but for all purposes they're locked in a monastery, doing chores all day while their biological clock is driving them insane.

 

Then, when giving each other -- nonsexual -- comfort at the end of the day, i can see it happen that sometimes raging hormones take over, and once people are past the initial treshold... Let's just say it's much easier to keep doing something than it is to start doing something you're opposed to (morally or otherwise).

 

As for Aes Sedai not doing it, let's not forget that it generally takes 50-odd years to get Raised, meaning that most new Aes Sedai would be in their 60's. At that age, even the 'late bloomers' have gotten to terms with their own bodies, or at least gotten used to it at the point of making it manageable, explaining why it's more or less expected to quit being pillow friends after being Raised to the shawl.

 

So yeah, even though i'm opposed to it from my point of view, i can understand why it's done, and be tolerated by the Aes Sedai. Though unlike actual love (which requires at least some degree of homosexuality), i reckon it's closer to lust (and let's face it, mammals tend to hump anything convenient, as evidenced by humans, dogs, and occasionally ducks).

[trakand_01]

Look at the prison system. At least in the UK and US, it is well-known for men (and women) in same-sex prisons to take their 'comfort' from other members of the same sex, because it is all that is available. I have seen numerous documentaries where men (and women) who have married lives with children outside of the system have turned to their cellmates and struck up relationships to carry them through their time inside.

 

I think on the whole, the fact that someone else is going through the same as you and understands entirely your feelings and fears, should not be understated in it's ability to prove attractive.

[Luckers]

I am not saying it isn't real. I am saying that while some people can or will do it, most of us won't.

 

That's because we live in a hetero-normative society. There is a strong cultural push against homosexuality in our society, but it is not a common one. Indeed historically speaking homosexuality has been accepted and endorsed by more societies than its been feared and hated by far, and usually more in the form we witness in WoT--as a form of close friendship seperate from the modern idea of it as a substitute for heterosexual marriage.

 

To view it as either mindless sex or merely a form of stress release is not really accurate. It was more a form of bonding between intensely close friends. There would be those that would be what we today would call homosexual, those with the specific orientation only, that practised it, but it was also something quite commonly practiced amongst people that we would today call straight--ones who went on to, or were married quite happily.

 

It was an intensely close, intensely personal style of relationship that doesn't really exist in western society because of the strong religious push--but it is something that existed in pretty much every other society throughout history, and especially in societies that had strongly established gender divisions, like the White Tower.

 

[trakand_01]

Indeed historically speaking homosexuality has been accepted and endorsed than its been feared and hated by far, and usually more in the form we witness in WoT--as a form of close friendship seperate from the modern idea of it as a substitute for heterosexual marriage.

 

 

Indeed homosexuality is the leading reason why it can be suggested (and frequently has been) that Anne Boleyn (HenryVIII's 2nd wife) was wrongly beheaded. The overall reason, to be quite blunt, why she was killed was that Henry VIII had found Jane Seymour and wanted Anne out of the way. Anne had failed to give him a male heir just as Catherine of Aragon had, but whilst his first marriage was annulled (because he banned catholicism, cut off all ties with the pope and set up the church of england, with him as the head and his friend as archbishop, basically giving him free reign to do what he liked), that couldnt be done so easily with Anne. They needed another way.

 

So, she had had many miscarriages and was just not doing what he wanted. she had a brother, george, who had several very close friends. It was said that she engaged in sexual acts with her brother and his friends, amongst other things. I think that infidelity and incest was one of the main charges against her. Other charges were brought, suggesting that she was intentionally killing the babies in her womb (she had taken herbs to end a non-progressive pregnancy).

 

In actual fact, George and his friends were homosexual and, despite being married (in some cases with children) their public relationships were largely a sham, instead they found their true relations with each other.

 

They were hung, drawn and quartered. If the trial was held now, they would never have been convicted.

[anamul]

*lol*...yeah, but as I said, I din't say it doesn't happen.

 

On a side note, off-topic, as prison come in.

I was born in a very very conservative family.Pre-marriage sex is banned here. Close contact with female is very restricted. If you happen to spend more time than allowed with a female...like even cousin, people start to frown, talk and give it a ugly twist, hence bringing the wrath of the society down on you.

 

I am 29, and you will find it very shocking, still a virgin, not even a kiss, hell, not even a hug. It is nothing to be proud of , here it is common in 50% family. Due to economical problem plus lack of job, people marries at 30/32.

 

What I am saying is that never, ever I contemplated having sex with same sex. The very idea always repulsed me to the point of bleakness.

"I have my hands, thank you, I would rather wait for the right woman or die".

 

So you see, the society I live in , is as good as prison even worst. At least there you don't have to think about meals and struggle to earn.

 

Its hell here. A few people here do engage in that kind of activity here.A few prefer whore house. And some like me, just can't make ourselves do anything except using hands.For me sex without love is meaningless. I thrive to fill my soul first, I strive to be complete. And only a female(my other half) can do that. One whom I can love and respect.

 

Sorry for the long post, but when people started prison and stuff, couldn't help but bring out the worst in me.Normal cases, I would rather never use myself as example. It is pathetic, and I don't want pity either.

 

It is sin of my ancestor, sin of the society. You guys have no idea what a blessing a free society is. You will never know....you will have to live it to know it, to feel the bleakness you will have to come close to it.But I like people in this forum for two reason, one they are open minded, two they have a good idea about multiculture and the horror within. Our society make Seanchan looks like haven.

 

So, Cheer..... ;D ;D

[RAND AL THOR]

If RJ himself stated so then I guess there is no denying it. I have no objections to homosexuality. I just wanted to clear up this issue. In the WoT, baby is called 'babe' all the time. So I thought that 'pillor friends' would refer to best friends. Also, if Moiraine and Siuan were pillow friends why were they chatting about men? Somewhere, I think in the start of book 2 , siuan tells Moiraine about their dreams about their future husbands when they were novices. She includes statements saying that they had daydreamed of marrying princes etc... that is weird isnt it? Unless both Moiraine and Siuan are bisexual since Siuan is now with Bryne and Moiraine will likely end up with Thom. Why would RJ suggest they used to be homosexual and then turn them heterosexual?

 

 

[Elgee]

Sexual behaviour is something that is mostly imposed on us by religious teachings, ie heterosexuality is the only allowed thing in many religions.  Since there is no such thing as organized religion in WoT (discounting the Whitecloaks), it follows that things such as homo- or bi-sexuality will not be regarded as abherent (sp?).

 

You'll therefor find that most people, when confined to the company of their own gender for 20 or more years, will naturally reach out to those who are available, even though when it comes to MARRIAGE, they would prefer it with someone of the opposite sex.

 

 

[anamul]

Neither religion nor science have any logical reason to condone sex between same sex. It is one of the few field, where both agrees.

 

If a situation force people to indecently gain their sexual pleasure(i.e, if he or she isn't attracted to the same sex), that situation or tradition needs to be re-evaluated.No wonder most of the Aes sedai is such a jerk.

 

Judging from Rand and Aviendha, among aiel having sex or contact with a male is allowed while in training.

 

A woman can play a more significant role in a man's life than another man, same goes for woman as well. A man can make some subtle changes in a woman character, point of view of the world and successes.

 

Now it make sense, why these Aes sedai are such a jerk.

 

 

[Majsju]

Neither religion nor science have any logical reason to condone sex between same sex. It is one of the few field, where both agrees.

 

Saying that they "agree" is quite a stretch, since science does not care about who you have sex with. Especially not today, where sex is no longer required for  procreation, thanks to science.

 

If a situation force people to indecently gain their sexual pleasure(i.e, if he or she isn't attracted to the same sex), that situation or tradition needs to be re-evaluated.No wonder most of the Aes sedai is such a jerk.

 

I am quite sure that those who does become pillowfriends are attracted to members of the same sex, or they would not go there (and certainly not get much pleasure from it). And experimenting when you are a teenager with raging hormones is very natural

[Luckers]

On a side note, off-topic, as prison come in.

I was born in a very very conservative family.Pre-marriage sex is banned here. Close contact with female is very restricted. If you happen to spend more time than allowed with a female...like even cousin, people start to frown, talk and give it a ugly twist, hence bringing the wrath of the society down on you.

 

I am 29, and you will find it very shocking, still a virgin, not even a kiss, hell, not even a hug. It is nothing to be proud of , here it is common in 50% family. Due to economical problem plus lack of job, people marries at 30/32.

 

What I am saying is that never, ever I contemplated having sex with same sex. The very idea always repulsed me to the point of bleakness.

"I have my hands, thank you, I would rather wait for the right woman or die".

 

So you see, the society I live in , is as good as prison even worst. At least there you don't have to think about meals and struggle to earn.

 

Again, a result of the strong modern cultural establishment of morals. Within the ambiguos realm of prison that is pretty much void.

 

Its hell here. A few people here do engage in that kind of activity here.A few prefer whore house. And some like me, just can't make ourselves do anything except using hands.For me sex without love is meaningless. I thrive to fill my soul first, I strive to be complete. And only a female(my other half) can do that. One whom I can love and respect.

 

I think you mistake what is going on here. There is love in this--in some it is the romantic love we now relate to sex, but there is another type of love that we don't really have in western society, a love based of friendship that goes so far as to include sexual interaction.

 

This isn't sex based on stress, or a need to 'get off'. It isn't glorified masterbation. It's a type of relationship that simply doesn't exist any more--at least not openly.

 

Sorry for the long post, but when people started prison and stuff, couldn't help but bring out the worst in me.Normal cases, I would rather never use myself as example. It is pathetic, and I don't want pity either.

 

I agree... what occurs in prison is not condonable. It too often has to do with power, or base need. It's hardly comprable.

 

If RJ himself stated so then I guess there is no denying it. I have no objections to homosexuality. I just wanted to clear up this issue. In the WoT, baby is called 'babe' all the time. So I thought that 'pillor friends' would refer to best friends. Also, if Moiraine and Siuan were pillow friends why were they chatting about men? Somewhere, I think in the start of book 2 , siuan tells Moiraine about their dreams about their future husbands when they were novices. She includes statements saying that they had daydreamed of marrying princes etc... that is weird isnt it? Unless both Moiraine and Siuan are bisexual since Siuan is now with Bryne and Moiraine will likely end up with Thom. Why would RJ suggest they used to be homosexual and then turn them heterosexual?

 

Again, remember that the heterosexual/homosexual devide is a new thing. Very few cultures besides our own actively sort to define it so clearly. Moiraine's and Siuan's relationship falls in a gray area between the two that our modern definitions don't allow for, but it's a style of relationship that was quite common.

 

And they do still occur today. Trust me, it got me through high school. We just hide them under 'youthful experimentation' and 'dude, i was so drunk'.

 

Sexual behaviour is something that is mostly imposed on us by religious teachings, ie heterosexuality is the only allowed thing in many religions.  Since there is no such thing as organized religion in WoT (discounting the Whitecloaks), it follows that things such as homo- or bi-sexuality will not be regarded as abherent (sp?).

 

That's not precisely true. Aside from the abrahamic religions (Islam, Judaism and Christianity) most religions are ambivelant to the subject of homosexuality. Some place heavy emphasis on how one goes about a heterosexual relationship, and some decry all sexual activity, but very few specifically single out homosexuality. A considerable amount actually ascribe honoured places and roles within it for homosexuality. Indeed in more than a few sex with the opposite sex is accounted a method of losing spiritual purity, and their priests and shamans are exclusively homosexual.

 

But i do agree with your overall point.

 

Neither religion nor science have any logical reason to condone sex between same sex. It is one of the few field, where both agrees.

 

Thats not accurate. Firstly, of science, sex is proven as a form of relief for stress, and interpersonal relations of a romantic type is proven a nessasary reality in human existence. Logically speaking neither requires that the focus be someone of the opposite sex, and thereby both exist as viable logical reasons for someone to have sex--opposite or not.

 

Logic allows for no prevarications.

 

As for religion. Very little in religion is directly logical, by which i mean to follow through with the suggested arguments one must believe in the basic premise--that that religions god or ideals exist. Since that is more or less impossible--especially when it comes to the moral suggestions--it becomes hard to prescribe religious argument to the mathematical frame of the discipline of the Logician.

 

But within that basis, from the prescribed beliefs, many religions make quite logical support for homosexuality. Most commonly suggested is the issue of sexual purity, but more than a few logically sustain simple sexual pleasure as the highest form of worship.

 

More accurate to say is that your religion does not offer a logical reason as to why homosexuality is right--which makes sense given your religion is actively against it. Also quite accurate is that religion offers no logical reasons to not engage in homosexuality. God says no, but that not logical unless you believe in the basic premise... that God exists... and that places you right there with the bonic faith, or the celtic, or the scandenavian (sp?).

 

If a situation force people to indecently gain their sexual pleasure(i.e, if he or she isn't attracted to the same sex), that situation or tradition needs to be re-evaluated.No wonder most of the Aes sedai is such a jerk.

 

Indecently? Thats a cultural judgement, and they arn't of your culture. To them, quite clearly, it is more than decent. And given its seemingly enacted with respect and affections, i don't see you sustaining that its in some way inherently abhorent.

 

A woman can play a more significant role in a man's life than another man, same goes for woman as well. A man can make some subtle changes in a woman character, point of view of the world and successes.

 

Nonsense. The degree of influence a person has in another persons life is based solely on the individual and the receptivity.

 

 

[anamul]

This a very recent event. Apart from this, science have every reason to agree with religion.

Agree, isn't a stretch, I am not saying that they become best of pals. I am saying it is a common ground. Religion also couldn't care less of what you do with your sexual life, as long as you don't destablish the whole civilization.

Keep in mind that people like me, who believes in God but not in any particular religion think that, Religion was created to preserve the civilization not destroy it. To control and make sure in no uncertain terms a particular abomination repeats itself. Even a father of the church will agree that they don't care any particular annomaly as long as it doesn't become a seed to total chaos.

 

Even if I don't believe in religion, I have respect for the three mainstream religion. These are the system that endured and sustained mankind. Despite the fact that they are constantly at each other throat, each had or still have its own necessity.

 

Only the fanatic who mis-interpret religion or politician who seeks to gain his own agenda mess the whole thing up.

 

Only thing I find frustrating about religion is how they seems to sub-humanize the women.Putting unfair restriction and rules on women is the only aspect of religion that irritates me more than anything else.

 

 

[anamul]

Luckers, nothing personal but I will rather spent my time with a woman than a man. I just can't make myself liking them. Even my best friend will never be my closest friend. And I don't live in a western society. Sex between friend of same sex isn't condoned anywhere. At least at west, they don't disapprove of people who have sex with same sex. Here people is most likely to hang you.

 

As you quite fond of saying, it is social and religious which is responsible for my own view. You couldn't be any more wrong than this. This is my friend is genetic, EVEN IF THE SOCIETY AND RELIGION APPROVED IT, I WOULD STILL FIND IT REPULSIVE".

It is our instinct. It is natural. A few who find themselves attracted to same sex is annomaly.

 

Look at Nature.How an insect seeks out it mate, opposite sex ofcourse or any other animal.

 

You are trying to establish that if not for society or religion, we would have found people of same sex attractive, engaged with them? Thats ridiculous.

 

Being born in a conservative family didn't make me one, I questioned, I came out of the structure of religion and society. I hate my own society, not doing any religious rituals. How can I be influenced by any social tradition or structure?

 

No, it is who I am, it is what natural, there is no way in haven in hell I am going to love a man that way.

 

Yes, A woman whom I love can motivate me to a degree that other can't. All a man do for me is advice....but to listen, endure, travel the long windy road...I need my soul mate. May be it isn't as such for other,but for me...it will be as such.

 

And considering prison and the situation I described...your statment doesn't make sense. It is like what....14-29 so...total 15 year of "no sex" here in our society before u can marry. In prison it depends on how long your sentence is and the percentage isn't high for any more than 12 years.

 

All I am trying to say is that it is depend on the personality. I have hold off 15 years and I am not considered strong minded. I am sure other can too.

 

For people outside prison, I can only condone it for the ones who was born this way, for other it perversion. It disgust me.

[Luckers]

Luckers, nothing personal but I will rather spent my time with a woman than a man. I just can't make myself liking them. Even my best friend will never be my closest friend. And I don't live in a western society

 

No, but I'm guessing you live in an abrahmic society? Trust me I'm not taking this personally, I'm just pointing out to you that what you find comfortable is a product of your society. Other societies have different establishments that cover their interactions.

 

Sex between friend of same sex isn't condoned anywhere.

 

It is, actually. And historically speaking it condoned by far more cultures than its decried.

 

As you quite fond of saying, it is social and religious which is responsible for my own view. You couldn't be any more wrong than this. This is my friend is genetic, EVEN IF THE SOCIETY AND RELIGION APPROVED IT, I WOULD STILL FIND IT REPULSIVE".

 

I didn't mean to offend you my friend. I wasn't trying to suggest you should feel anything other than what you feel--but you are incorrect. Societies have existed exactly in the manner RJ has described, it is both common, and thus normal. Furthermore whilst i might agree that attraction is a gentically designated reality, that doesn't speak to this. We are speaking of engaging in sex as a form bonding between friends--and quite clearly even friends that are attracted to the opposite sex, given Moiraine and Siuan.

 

You find it repulsive, and certainly in such societies there would be people who had no interest in it--Tarna for instance--yet without a specific social reason to hate it, it goes no further than having no interest. They arn't repulsed, they just choose not to engage in it. Like some people have no interest in playing soccer. Some play it casually, for fun with friends, and some love it, and some cannot even care enought to watch it.

 

 

[Majsju]

This a very recent event. Apart from this, science have every reason to agree with religion.

Agree, isn't a stretch, I am not saying that they become best of pals. I am saying it is a common ground. Religion also couldn't care less of what you do with your sexual life, as long as you don't destablish the whole civilization.

 

Sorry but you are wrong on both accounts. There is no common ground between religion and science on this, because from a scientific point of view, it is absolutely irrelevant whether you are hetero-, homo- or bisexual. While at least the main religions are openly against anything that is not strict heteronormative.

 

Sex between friend of same sex isn't condoned anywhere

 

That is simply not true. Look at Europe, more and more nations are allowing homosexuals to marry, and even adopt children. While some people  might have issues with homosexuals for personal reasons, granting them the same rights as everyone else is de facto condoning it.

 

and that places you right there with the bonic faith, or the celtic, or the scandenavian (sp?).

 

Scandinavian. Though the proper name would be Norse religion, as it did exist outside Scandinavia as well.

[anamul]

Lucker, my friend, yes, I find it repulsive. It is my flaw. It isn't like any game I don't want to or like to play. I just choose not to engage in that game. But this my friend, simply disgust me. I tolerate people who engage with same sex, thats about all.

 

Yeah, it isn't condoned anywhere, didn't came out as I wanted. What I meant to say, as luckers pointed out that in western society, the relationship between close friend of same sex, isn't exercised, I was merely pointing out that at least it is tolerated there, and trust me, they will hang you here for this.  ;D  ;D  ;D

 

And I am not offended my friend. As I said, I am not attached to any religion.I have respect for them how-ever and yes I believe in the Creator and I thank him for creating EVE.  ;D  ;D  ;D