Why 13 Forsaken?

[Leopoled Boothe]

As I'm sure you are all aware there were more that just 13 Forsaken (Chosen) in the AOL.  13 of those Chosen becacme sealed in the DO's prison.  So has anybody ever thought about why exactlly 13 Forsaken happend to be as Shayol Ghul when LTT led his 100 companiouns there.  Is it a mere coincidence that this is the exact number of channelers that would be necessary to forcably turn a channeler to The Shadow?  Or could it be that they had set a trap for LTT and were planning to turn him forceablly?  That is to say did they purpously allow LTT to reach SG in hopes of capturing him there.  If this is the case then 13 Fades would also be necessary as well.  Could it be that Shaddar Harren is one of these Fades and he also also became sealed in the DO's prison duing this event. 

 

Just a few thought I thought I'd share.  Discuss. 

[Guest leebarr]

The number 13 is a unlucky number, so its should be feared. The only hole you have is that there was no fades at the bore. They were there for a meeting to figure out the next moves in the war

[Luckers]

My guess, sheer coincidence. If it was any form of trap they would have had plenty of other Chosen nearby to deal with those Lews Therin brought with him.

[Leopoled Boothe]

The only hole you have is that there was no fades at the bore.

 

How do you know that?

 

My guess, sheer coincidence. If it was any form of trap they would have had plenty of other Chosen nearby to deal with those Lews Therin brought with him.

 

Certainly there would have been, however, I would imagine that the 13 who were to perform the turning would have been much more well protected in order to insure that the plan was a success.  Perhaps they were even within Shayol Ghull itself thus explaining how they were so easily trapped.  Of couse I will admit this does leave the problem of what happend to the other 12 Fades.  Fades are different that humans so perhaps in the imprisonment process they were somehow combined into one thus giving SH his "SuperFade" status.

 

 

[Luckers]

They weren't. Shaidar Haren is the result of ongoinf experimentation by the Shadow--we witness one of the early versions in tSR.

 

And again, if it were an intentional trap i see it as involving more Chosen to fight Lews Therin's forces. Since clearly Lews Therin was able to seal the bore, then i don't see this as being somethng the Shadow knew about and planned to use as a trap.

[Feral]

I'm guessing those 13 were the most powerful of the Forsaken and, like Leebarr said, they were just planning the next move in the war. If they were going to try to turn LTT then they would have anticipated him coming with other chanellers and all the Forsaken would have been there.

[Luckers]

Well, whilst it is suggested by myth that they were the 13 strongest of the Chosen, that too seems unlikely. Frankly i don't see Asmodean being number thirteen out of twenty-nine. Moghedian either, really.

 

My guess, pure happenstance. People involved specifically with whatever they were talking about, not the select group the Dark One selected to survive the Breaking like a time capsule.

[aussie_ashaman123]

All the other Forsaken were dead, it was as urprise attack. If there were more than 13 Forsaken still free after the closing, they would still be around.

 

I think there are 13 forsaken in the story context purely by accident. There are also 13 sins, I wouldnt be surprised that each Forsaken was created specifically for each of those sins.

[Leopoled Boothe]

All the other Forsaken were dead, it was as urprise attack. If there were more than 13 Forsaken still free after the closing, they would still be around.

 

I think there are 13 forsaken in the story context purely by accident. There are also 13 sins, I wouldnt be surprised that each Forsaken was created specifically for each of those sins.

 

What?!!!!  If you are refering to the Christian concept of Deadly Sins then I must inform you that there are only seven.  Beyond these Christian beliefs contain many, many more than 13 sins.

 

If this is something contained within WOT, this I must admit that I have missed it.  As best I can tell there are no sins per se in the WOT world.  There is a loose concept of good and evil, acceptable and unacceptable actions, but no real "sins."

 

Still just for fun lets see if the Seven Deadly sins match up with the Forsaken.

 

Pride = Ishameal

Wrath = Sammael or Demondred

Lust = Greandal or Bethamal (Aran'gar)

Envey = Sammeal, Demondred, Lanfear

Greed = umm pretty much all of them

Gluttony = Possibly Greandal but for the most part they all seem pretty fit.

Sloth = No, one thing I can say for the Forsaken is they do stay pretty busy, and each has made some accomplishments for their effort.  Really no lazy Forsaken.

 

So, it seems they don't match up on a one to one basis.  Given this with the fact that there are 6 extras I'd say there is no direct relationship between the Forsaken and the Seven Deadly Sins

 

 

[Leopoled Boothe]

Well, whilst it is suggested by myth that they were the 13 strongest of the Chosen, that too seems unlikely. Frankly i don't see Asmodean being number thirteen out of twenty-nine. Moghedian either, really.

 

Agreed, my thoughts exactlly.  Add also to the list Aginor. I'm under the impression that his main contrubution to the shadow was not so much stregnth in The Power as it was his twisted genuis at genetic engineering.  Not to mention that as Osan'gar he was taken out by a 3rd age untrained child.  So as far as skill with the One Power goes he just doesn't seem all that impressive.  In fact I'd probably put my money on Asmo or Moggy over Aginor.

 

And just out of curiosity, where did the #29 come from.  Is that stated in the books, or is it just an arbatrary number you decided to use? 

[aussie_ashaman123]

There is only a passing mention of the 13 sins. In CoS when Elayne and nynaeve are shown the Kin, the fireplace has been carved with the 13 sins.

 

Not a bad list there. But Aginor was also Prideful. Lanfear was Power-hungry.

 

Id put Asmodean down for sloth. He became Chosen because he wanted all of etnernity to write a brilliant piece of music, rather than work hard at it.

 

Cowardise may also be seen as a sin, there Moghedien

 

I also think 13 has an almost cabalistic meaning in WoT. 13 sins, 13 Forsaken, 13 aes sedai are used when stilling/gentling, 13 fades and 13 channelers can turn a channeler over to the Shadow, Including the Jenn, there are 13 Aiel Clans, A majority vote in the Hall of Sitters must be at least 13. And when Elayne becomes queen of Cairhien and unites it with Andor, there will be 13 countries. I know im probably missing a few

[DemandredFO]

that was a mix up, 29 is the number that had access to the True Power and there were 43 chosen I think

[Majsju]

Well, whilst it is suggested by myth that they were the 13 strongest of the Chosen, that too seems unlikely. Frankly i don't see Asmodean being number thirteen out of twenty-nine. Moghedian either, really.

 

They were not the strongest, they were the highest ranking at that particular point. And ranking was not based on strength, it was based on abilities. Asmo for example was quite skilled as a governor.

 

All the other Forsaken were dead, it was as urprise attack. If there were more than 13 Forsaken still free after the closing, they would still be around.

 

The other forsaken were certainly not dead. But with the DO and the 13 highest ranked safely locked away, the war started going in favour of the light. With the DO locked away, the male forsaken had no protection against the taint, and the female forsaken who managed to survive being hunted down by the Lights forces, as well as surviving the Breaking for some time eventually died of old age.

 

that was a mix up, 29 is the number that had access to the True Power and there were 43 chosen I think

 

Nowhere is there a mention of the exact number of Chosen, but considering that Chosen = Aes Sedai turning to the DO, I would bet quite a lot on the number being much higher than 43.

 

 

[Feral]

Well, whilst it is suggested by myth that they were the 13 strongest of the Chosen, that too seems unlikely. Frankly i don't see Asmodean being number thirteen out of twenty-nine. Moghedian either, really.

 

Agreed, my thoughts exactlly.  Add also to the list Aginor. I'm under the impression that his main contrubution to the shadow was not so much stregnth in The Power as it was his twisted genuis at genetic engineering.  Not to mention that as Osan'gar he was taken out by a 3rd age untrained child.  So as far as skill with the One Power goes he just doesn't seem all that impressive.  In fact I'd probably put my money on Asmo or Moggy over Aginor.

 

And just out of curiosity, where did the #29 come from.  Is that stated in the books, or is it just an arbatrary number you decided to use? 

 

Didn't Moiraine say in tEotW that Aginor came close in Power to Ishmael? Or did she say that about someone else?

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

roughly half of all aes sedai turned over to the shadow and became the chosen/forsaken.  not quite sure where i got that from, i'm thinking the BWB.  although it may be incorrect, it makes perfect sense, much less and the shadow would have been crushed in a matter of days.

[Leopoled Boothe]

Well, whilst it is suggested by myth that they were the 13 strongest of the Chosen, that too seems unlikely. Frankly i don't see Asmodean being number thirteen out of twenty-nine. Moghedian either, really.

 

Agreed, my thoughts exactlly.  Add also to the list Aginor. I'm under the impression that his main contrubution to the shadow was not so much stregnth in The Power as it was his twisted genuis at genetic engineering.  Not to mention that as Osan'gar he was taken out by a 3rd age untrained child.  So as far as skill with the One Power goes he just doesn't seem all that impressive.  In fact I'd probably put my money on Asmo or Moggy over Aginor.

 

And just out of curiosity, where did the #29 come from.  Is that stated in the books, or is it just an arbatrary number you decided to use? 

 

Didn't Moiraine say in tEotW that Aginor came close in Power to Ishmael? Or did she say that about someone else?

 

She might have, its been a while since I've read through the series.  Then agian she might have been talking about Bathamel, I seem to remember reading somewhere that he was actually one of the more powerfull Forsaken.  Whatever the case, Aginor/Osan'gar's skill in the power just hasn't impressed me.  Frist he gets taken out by an upstart male channeler, who wasn't even aware of his own abilities, then he is taken out but a run of the mill 3ed AS (granted she was Black Ajah and may have recieved some training from the Forsaken) with little effort.  So if Moiraine did say that then Aginor did not live up to the billing.

[Charlz Guybon]

Nowhere is there a mention of the exact number of Chosen, but considering that Chosen = Aes Sedai turning to the DO, I would bet quite a lot on the number being much higher than 43.

 

If IIRC, when Moghedian first met Moridin she said "you're only the 31st to receive this honor". That honor being use of the True Power. So in the Age of Legends only 30 of the Forsaken can truly be called Chosen.

[Majsju]

Chosen was the name the Aes Sedai who turned to the DO gave themselves, not a "title" given to those who were allowed to use TP.

 

Forsaken was the name given to Aes Sedai who went over to the Shadow in the War of the Shadow at the end of the Age of Legends, though of course, they called themselves the Chosen, and despite the tales of the "current"Age, there were many more than a few of them. Since they occupied all sorts of levels, you might say that many were equivalent to some of the lesser Dreadlords, but it would be incorrect to call them so. At the time, they were all Forsaken—or Chosen—from the greatest to the least.

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=183

[aevogt]

So here's something that's always bugged me.

 

There were the Forsaken, also referred to as the Chosen, depending on which side you were on.  These were channelers who renounced the Light, were given the Cchosen Mark and were tied to the DO via the Black Cords we've seen.

 

Then there wer the dreadlords, who were channelers who turned to the shadow but were given neither the mark nor the cords.

 

Now, after the sealing of the Bore, presumably there were thousnads of both.  Since the Forsaken are protected against the taint, would this not give them an advantage against the Light.

 

Obviously the regular dreadlords had no such protection and went insane right along with those on the side of the light but since there were still Forsaken running around, able to channel saidin, I would think they would be able to gain tactical advantage over those who cannot trust their male allies to not go insane.

 

Or, with the sealing, did they lose that protection and it has been recalimed by those freed when the first Seal broke?

 

Or, did I miss something?

 

 

 

 

[Majsju]

Chosen/Forsaken were the Aes Sedai who joined the DO during the war of power.

 

Dreadlords were the channelers who joined the shadow during the trolloc wars. At that time, the DO was safely locked away, and thus could not provide any protection from the taint. Or give them the Chosen mark.

 

And the Chosen who were not sealed together with the DO could not get the protection from the taint, since the DO was, well, sealed away, and unable to touch the world.

[aevogt]

I always thought there was a missing piece unexplained on that one, that being that the DO's protection was no longer available once the Bore was sealed.

[Luckers]

Agreed, my thoughts exactlly.  Add also to the list Aginor. I'm under the impression that his main contrubution to the shadow was not so much stregnth in The Power as it was his twisted genuis at genetic engineering.  Not to mention that as Osan'gar he was taken out by a 3rd age untrained child.  So as far as skill with the One Power goes he just doesn't seem all that impressive.  In fact I'd probably put my money on Asmo or Moggy over Aginor.

 

Aginor was actually only slightly weaker than Ishamael and Rand. Moiraine tells us this in the first book.

 

Quote

Well, whilst it is suggested by myth that they were the 13 strongest of the Chosen, that too seems unlikely. Frankly i don't see Asmodean being number thirteen out of twenty-nine. Moghedian either, really.

 

 

They were not the strongest, they were the highest ranking at that particular point. And ranking was not based on strength, it was based on abilities. Asmo for example was quite skilled as a governor.

 

Which is exactly what i was saying--and remember, it is actually stated that according to myth in Randland these were the very strongest--i was just saying thats more or less wrong. And for the same reasons you said.

 

Quote from: DemandredFO on April 06, 2008, 08:40:59 AM

that was a mix up, 29 is the number that had access to the True Power and there were 43 chosen I think

 

 

Nowhere is there a mention of the exact number of Chosen, but considering that Chosen = Aes Sedai turning to the DO, I would bet quite a lot on the number being much higher than 43.

 

Indeed, it would almost have to be in the hundreds of thousands, or else the Shadow would never have stood a chance. Roughly 3 percent of the population could channel, remember.

 

She might have, its been a while since I've read through the series.  Then agian she might have been talking about Bathamel, I seem to remember reading somewhere that he was actually one of the more powerfull Forsaken.  Whatever the case, Aginor/Osan'gar's skill in the power just hasn't impressed me.  Frist he gets taken out by an upstart male channeler, who wasn't even aware of his own abilities, then he is taken out but a run of the mill 3ed AS (granted she was Black Ajah and may have recieved some training from the Forsaken) with little effort.  So if Moiraine did say that then Aginor did not live up to the billing.

 

It was Aginor, not Balthamel. And remember, Aginor was not killed by Rand, he died from drawing too much of the Eye of the World in his attempt to control it, and as for his second death, keep in mind that Elza was channeling through Callandor.

 

Certainly though his skill has been less than inspiring, but he was very strong.

 

 

[trakand_01]

Something I've just thought. Is there a limit to the number of 'bonds' a person can sustain without becoming fatally exhausted by the 'strength' each bondee pulls from you?

 

Could Narishma bond several women, so that they can draw through Callandor when necessary? I presume that this would render Narishma himself useless as more than a conduit for the power, but could it work? Surely Callandor's powerful to make 4 or 5 moderate female channelers significantly stronger?

 

Also, what would be the effect on say Rand, of having a 'complete circle' of bonds? For example, if Birgitte bonded Elza, and Narishma bonded Alanna, then Rand would be bonded to Elayne who is bonded to Birgitte, who was bonded to Elza, bonded to Narishma, bonded to Alanna, bonded back to Rand... would it make him stronger, or them weaker?

[Luckers]

The drawing of strength seems to require an active effort--i.e. the bond holder must conciously decide to draw strength. Certainly we've never seen Rand display any weakness from that.

 

But you seem to be misunderstanding what we mean by strength, we are not speaking strength in the power, we are speaking of normal physical energy. Narishma using Callandor wouldn't affect the amount of strength they could draw from him, indeed him channeling would use up his own energy and make him weaker, as channeling involves exertion, and with Callandor that would increase the drain on his energy. In effect it would make him a less useful source of strength to whoever had bonded him.

 

And again, if Narishma bonded several women, none could draw strength from him--only women who bonded him could do that. Do you get the distinction?

 

Also, what would be the effect on say Rand, of having a 'complete circle' of bonds? For example, if Birgitte bonded Elza, and Narishma bonded Alanna, then Rand would be bonded to Elayne who is bonded to Birgitte, who was bonded to Elza, bonded to Narishma, bonded to Alanna, bonded back to Rand... would it make him stronger, or them weaker?

 

It would do nothing. Again, the way this works is that the person who weaves the bond is then able to draw strength from the person she has bonded--physical energy. The person who was bonded cannot do anything like that--he recieves a certain degree of vitality and strength, but he can't draw strength.

 

And in truth we don't even know if the other bonds work this way. So far only the Aes Sedai bond is known to have that element in it.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I'm not sure why this one keeps coming up.  Jordan answered it.  The answer is easily available to any who are interested.  But, for those who can't be bothered to do any research, here it is again:

Week 12 Question: In Winters Heart, you mention that back in the Age of Legends, there were several other Forsaken that the Dark One had killed because he suspected they would betray him. What's their story? Were those people ever as high ranking as the 13 survivors, or where they more like high-ranking Dreadlords then actual Forsaken?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: First off, Dreadlords was the name given to men and women who could channel and sided with the Shadow in the Trolloc Wars. Yes, the women were called Dreadlords, too. They might have liked to call themselves "the Chosen," like the Forsaken, but feared to. The real Forsaken might not have appreciated it when they returned, as prophecies of the Shadow foretold would happen. Some of the Dreadlords had authority and responsibility equivalent to that of the Forsaken in the War of the Shadow, however. They ran the Shadow's side of the Trolloc Wars, though without the inherent ability to command the Myrddraal that the Forsaken possess, meaning they had to negotiate with them. Overall command at the beginning was in another's hands.

 

Forsaken was the name given to Aes Sedai who went over to the Shadow in the War of the Shadow at the end of the Age of Legends, though of course, they called themselves the Chosen, and despite the tales of the "current"Age, there were many more than a few of them. Since they occupied all sorts of levels, you might say that many were equivalent to some of the lesser Dreadlords, but it would be incorrect to call them so. At the time, they were all Forsaken—or Chosen—from the greatest to the least.

 

Some of those Forsaken the Dark One killed were every bit as high-ranking as the thirteen who were remembered, and who you might say constituted a large part of the Dark One's General Staff at the time of the sealing. With the Forsaken, where treachery and backstabbing were an acceptable way of getting ahead, the turnover in the upper ranks was fairly high, though Ishamael, Demandred, Lanfear, Graendal, Semirhage, and later Sammael, were always at the top end of the pyramid. They were very skilled at personal survival, politically and physically.

 

In large part the thirteen were remembered because they were trapped at Shayol Ghul, and so their names became part of that story, though it turned out that details of them, stories of them, survived wide-spread knowledge of the tale of the actual sealing itself. Just that they had been sealed away. Other Forsaken were left behind, so to speak, free but in a world that was rapidly sliding down the tube. The men eventually went mad and died from the same taint that killed off the other male Aes Sedai. They had no access to the Dark One's protective filters. The women died, too, though from age or in battle or from natural disasters created by insane male AesSedai or from diseases that could no longer be controlled because civilization itself had been destroyed and access to those who were skilled in Healing was all but gone. And soon after their deaths, their names were forgotten, except for what might possibly be discovered in some ancient manuscript fragment that survived the Breaking. A bleak story of people who deserved no better, and not worth telling in any detail.