Cadsuane

[Charlz Guybon]

My question is - why would they shush people speaking her name? Did she do something? Did something happen to her? Surely an AS thought to be dead but now found to be alive would be a wondrous thing for the WT, why would they keep shushing?

She's an infamous, legendary figure who's supposedly physically assaulted an Amyrlin.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

Why is the belief so strong that Caddy is dead?

UNQUOTE

 

Nobody heard from her in years, no mention of her doing anything, and no word of her bing seen for years.

 

QUOTE

No, sorry, I was just trying to show how Moiraine could have (and should have) warned Rand about Cadsuane.  There was an earlier reply that said "how was she supposed to warn him, say beware of a dead woman" or some such, and I wanted to spell it out.  My contention is that she was a late addition - I find absolutely no forewarning of her

UNQUOTE

 

But how could there BE any forewarning from anyone if everyone thought she was dead? It stands to reason that if someone is dead, and had been dead for years, that people would no longer warn an upcoming Dragon about them, perhaps no longer even talk about her as she had apparantly assaulted an Amyrlin, so there would be no need to speak of or even think of her, hence no foreshadowing. But I think there IS foreshadowing, just not much. Like I said earlier, theres the thing about Rand failing without a woman dead and gone...that could be Cadsuane as easily as Moiraine

[trakand_01]

My question is - why would they shush people speaking her name? Did she do something? Did something happen to her? Surely an AS thought to be dead but now found to be alive would be a wondrous thing for the WT, why would they keep shushing?

She's an infamous, legendary figure who's supposedly physically assaulted an Amyrlin.

 

Christ... it's just dawned on me... I wouldnt want to be Egwene if she ever comes across Cadsuane...

 

On the other hand perhaps introducing her to Elaida would help things along...

[benr]

Yes, the Egwene-Cadsuane confrontation possibilities hit me last night, too.  That causes some interesting speculation.  It could be very tough for Eggy, but it could also go a long ways towards affirming her in the eyes of older AS, if Caddy comes around to recogizing her as Amyrlin.

 

Dreadlord, I just can't buy the out of sight=dead argument.  Caddy thinks in her POV chapter in PoD about wasting her time chasing after Logain and Taim instead of Rand, and how everyone from Moiraine to Elaida have made a mess of things with him.  Some of that is gathered from her time with Rand, but it shows to me contact with some AS, getting info, etc.  Plus, as she WAS chasing Logain and Taim, she must have had some contact with sisters.  I have many aquaintences in life that I haven't heard from in 7 years (a proportional number to the 20 for Caddy, conservatively), and I don't assume them dead.  But it is something that will never be settled, at least to my satisfaction, unless there are notes that someone gets access to down the line - which I would doubt (the access, not the notes). 

[Elgee]

People thought she was dead because she's OLD, benr.

 

They already thought she was dead from old age before the Aiel War broke out, and were vastly surprised when she appeared then.  That was 20 ago, so obviously they're thinking she must be dead by NOW!

 

 

[Guest Dreadlord]

The out of sight=dead thing is something said in the books when Cadsuane turns up. I cant remember which Aes Sedai thought it-I havent got that far in this re-read-but I specifically remember it being said when Cadsuane turns up. As for your friends that you havent heard from in 7 years, are they of legendary status? If nobody heard anything at all about Rand for a month in WoT they would think he was dead-if not for years, then Id even believe it myself unless we had PoVs. Cadsuane was famous among Aes Sedai so if they didnt hear about her in years then surely they would think her dead. And as for the Aes Sedai she may have had contact with, it would be well within her power to say to them "Dont mention you've seen me." and those Aes Sedai wouldnt have to lie about it, just not mention it and worm their way around it if they are asked.

 

I do know what you mean though, there isn't much foreshadowing if any, but that doesnt mean she wasnt one of the original cast. It seems very deliberate on RJs part to have her appear seemingly out of nowhere. She was deep in hiding, but Rands Ta'veren pulling is strong, so however hard she may or may not have worked at hiding herself, even she is pulled to Rand evetually.

[aevogt]

If Keith Richards showed up in my office this morning, I'd probably say something like "Keith Richards, I thought you were dead"

 

Let's keep in mind that they can't just Google "Cadsuane Melaidhrin" (like you can with Keith) and get "thought to be long dead, actually known to be growing roses in Ghealdan, which is the next closest thing"

 

The AS rely on word of mouth for their information and, as we saw from the example of Vandene and Adelas, Aes Sedai in retirement don't generally advertise their presence, mostly to keep the townsfolk at bay and ward off any unpleasantness with the pitchforks and the flaming torches.

 

Min's vision is in regards to Moraine.  If she thought it was Cadsuane, Why would she feel that it was a failed viewing after meeting Cadsuane.  In other words, "Rand, I has a viewing that I thought was Moraine but it turns out it was Cadsuane" 

 

The viewing was of Moraine.

 

 

 

[balefireruinssteaks]

RJ probably thought to introduce several Aes Sedai within the boundaries of a long series.  He probably thought it unnecessary to mention every single Aes Sedai who MIGHT still be alive, and it looks to me like a lot of people don't think too much on Cadsuane except in passing.  There was an Aes Sedai in Salidar who was frustrated with Egwene, I think, and thought to herself that she wished Cadsuane was around to bring her to heel.  Maybe it wasn't Egwene, but it was something like that, a passing thought of a woman of enormous willpower and strength.  Remember that until Egwene, Elayne and Nyneave, Cadsuane was the highest standing Aes Sedai in sheer power.

 

I like that he waited well into the series to introduce her character.  I think, too, that when Aes Sedai go into retirement the other Aes Sedai tend to forget about them until they hear of their deaths.  They probably don't like to think about the idea that they will one day die, even if it's hundreds of years after any normal human being.  Romanda, Adeleas, Vandene, they were all retired Aes Sedai living their lives out before the Tower split.

[anamul]

Benr and Harmless Bandit, you speak my mind. If Cadsunaue was planned earlier, there would have been mention of her....even as a dead person.

 

Luckers, your statment about Soreli, proves us right.Cadsuanue would be nothing without Channeling and Terangrel.....But Soreli is an Aiel and through ou tthe series we saw how RJ established the fact that they are tough.

 

Now, Lan is a good example,so is Soreli....I tend to like this kind of people rather than bully like cady. U point a missile on my head.....u get the idea.

 

Some people here is set to believe that Cady was planned from the begining....but it is obvious that she wasn't .......at least not until he wrote 4th may be 5th book.

 

Also with Cady RJ reverted to bullying type of guiding(which reminds me of conservative family in which the elder prefer a stick to straighten their young rather than to sit and talk with them. In those kind of family the elder always forget how they were like when they were young or Teen ager and they automatically assume they are always right in whatever they do.)

 

 

[bjclinton]

As for the dead and gone comment, I don't think it was about Cadsuane...mostly based on when it was said.

 

It was the one viewing that Min heald back from Rand after he was hiding in his rooms for 4 days after he and Min slept together. She gave him the old "plus you need me- i've only told you half the viewings" line and we find out from her POV that she never told him about the "He will most certainly fail without the help of the dead woman" viewing.

 

We know for a fact that Moiraine is alive because Min's viewings are NEVER wrong, yet everyone thinks she's dead...or almost everyone at this point in the book. Thom and a few others might already have their suspicisions. However, Cadsuane has been alive for many chapters at this point. It would be a pretty lame new viewing if we were to assume it was about Caddy.

[Guest Dreadlord]

True, twas only a passing thought really. Just had a funny thought about foreshadowing and all that, and I can just picture Cadsuane warning Rand about Moiraine. "Rand, I know shes dead and everything, but just be careful of her. Corpse or no corpse, she had too many tricks up her skirt...er, I mean sleeve."

[Luckers]

Luckers, your statment about Soreli, proves us right.Cadsuanue would be nothing without Channeling and Terangrel.....But Soreli is an Aiel and through ou tthe series we saw how RJ established the fact that they are tough.

 

Now, Lan is a good example,so is Soreli....I tend to like this kind of people rather than bully like cady. U point a missile on my head.....u get the idea.

 

Some people here is set to believe that Cady was planned from the begining....but it is obvious that she wasn't .......at least not until he wrote 4th may be 5th book.

 

Also with Cady RJ reverted to bullying type of guiding(which reminds me of conservative family in which the elder prefer a stick to straighten their young rather than to sit and talk with them. In those kind of family the elder always forget how they were like when they were young or Teen ager and they automatically assume they are always right in whatever they do.)

 

 

 

Benr and Harmless Bandit, you speak my mind. If Cadsunaue was planned earlier, there would have been mention of her....even as a dead person.

 

I don't see why. No one's mentioned Meilyn, or Tsutama, or any of the other old powers that used to be and could have been again--and with that a risk to Rand. There was never a context, never a reason, never a cause.

 

Luckers, your statment about Soreli, proves us right.Cadsuanue would be nothing without Channeling and Terangrel.....But Soreli is an Aiel and through ou tthe series we saw how RJ established the fact that they are tough.

 

What? Sorilea and Cadsuane are of like personality, and my point was specific to the fact that Sorilea achieves massive amounts and is indeed a force to be reckoned with from that personality alone, and so would Cadsuane be. Yes, Aiel are tough, but why is that in any way significant? Cadsuane is tough too.

 

Now, Lan is a good example,so is Soreli....I tend to like this kind of people rather than bully like cady. U point a missile on my head.....u get the idea.

 

Sorilea uses exactly the same methods as Caddy, and Lan is a sworn bondsman, so im not entirely sure what you are trying to say--but in any case what does that have to do with her effectiveness? She can be dislikeable, and still effective.

 

 

[benr]

True, twas only a passing thought really. Just had a funny thought about foreshadowing and all that, and I can just picture Cadsuane warning Rand about Moiraine. "Rand, I know shes dead and everything, but just be careful of her. Corpse or no corpse, she had too many tricks up her skirt...er, I mean sleeve."

 

That would actually be funny, because it would mean that BS is still reading these posts.  Plus, it would give us some foreshadowing about Moiraine returning, as there hasn't been any of that.

[anamul]

Luckers, u are still missing our point. We are saying we would like to see Cady as tough without those Ter-angreal.

If Cady dare mis-behave with Rand without those thingy, she will have to depend on his good nature of being soft(more than decent) towards women.

 

Also out of context or not, I have read enough novel to know if a character like Cady's magnitude was planned before, RJ would have found or made scene where she is mentioned...even as a legend. People just don't stop talking about legend even after they are dead.

 

There was a mention of capturing Logain and displaying him in Camlyn, there was mention of Taim being caught as well, and all those scene or comments was perfect opportunity for RJ to slip in her name.

 

_________________________________

Can we Kill Egwene Now????

 

[Elgee]

What exactly is your problem with the fact that RJ might only have thought up the Character of Cadsuane at a later stage? 

 

Writing is a creative process, and sometimes characters seem to grow by themselves, or invent themselves.  Without that, the story would become very static and boring, I think.

 

It is quite clear that there was a major shift and growth in the story after book one: quite a few things he mentioned in book 1 were quietly dropped or changed in the following books.

[trakand_01]

 

Also out of context or not, I have read enough novel to know if a character like Cady's magnitude was planned before, RJ would have found or made scene where she is mentioned...even as a legend. People just don't stop talking about legend even after they are dead.

 

 

I havent followed the entire thread, although my personal opinion is that 'a character' was always planned, and it developed into Cadsuane as RJ developed the plots, Rand, Min and so on.

 

This quote just caught my eye though. Whilst I agree that people don't just stop talking about people after they die, I think it has to be said that the awareness of those people diminishes with each generation. For example, I have living memories of people I consider to have been 'legends', but I would not be surprised if, should Freddie Mercury turn up tomorrow, half of the current-teenage generation had no knowledge of who he was.

 

In this context, whilst yes, in the White Tower Cadsuane Melaihdrin is a 'big' name for those who knew her and knew of her, most of our experience of the White Tower had been of newbies, their lessons, and characters integral to the story. As those characters didnt know where Caddy had been, or what she'd been up to for the years of her retirement, I personally find it quite believable that they wouldnt have had any need to mention her.

 

Osama Bin Laden is a modern-day 'legend' for horrific reasons and his story is quite relevant to my point - he disappeared 7 years ago and save his close followers, no-one knows where he is. He could be dead, for all we know. But do we ponder over or mention him in every conversation, whenever we discuss war or terrorism?

 

With Caddy also, things were going a bit stale with Rand at the time - a good shocker was what we needed  :D

[Luckers]

Luckers, u are still missing our point. We are saying we would like to see Cady as tough without those Ter-angreal.

If Cady dare mis-behave with Rand without those thingy, she will have to depend on his good nature of being soft(more than decent) towards women.

 

And again, need i point farther than Sorilea? Same persoality type, same methodology, but no strength and no ter'angreal, yet nevertheless effective.

 

I didn't miss your point, by the way, i responded to it directly--i just disagree that anything dramatic would result from it.

 

Also out of context or not, I have read enough novel to know if a character like Cady's magnitude was planned before, RJ would have found or made scene where she is mentioned...even as a legend. People just don't stop talking about legend even after they are dead.

 

There was a mention of capturing Logain and displaying him in Camlyn, there was mention of Taim being caught as well, and all those scene or comments was perfect opportunity for RJ to slip in her name.

 

In neither of those situations did any of the characters involve actually know of Cadsuane's role, so i hardly see why they would be speaking of her. As for your subjective analysis based on your knowledge of 'novel'... I've read alot of novels too, and i disagree. *shrug*

[anamul]

The knowledge that comes from too many books, is a knowledge of being perceptive about a book and plot. It goes without saying sometime some reader can already assume a end game before even reaching the end.

 

While there is no proof to us who believe that she wasn't previously planned, there is no proof to the contrary either.

 

While a depth of any plot, doesn't circumvent any leading character, obscuring an undefined character can be viewed as an art as long as anticipation is there. How-ever, sudden appearance of a legend in the midst of a muddy situation, struggle with its contextual integrity, thus downplaying the dramatical appeal of a contemporary plot.

It is not like....oh

" Valentine is there. so is her friend, with guns, shooting at zombie's and stuff, and suddenly their ammunition runs out....and behole, Gandaf the grey appear....but no it isn't Gandaf the grey, it is Alice.....whome we already know exist...come to save the day"

 

Its just an example.....if such things are allowed....well...let say...hero in the middle of a situation with no way of coming out alive.....suddenly I invent a new character and drop him/her in the middle of a scene....SAVE THE DAY.(That reminds me of MAT...while he was complaining about him being Taveren could very easily drop him in the middle of a battle) Even that is just an speculation.

 

So ofcourse a talented writer like RJ would want to avoid such thing....so he presented her in a way that she doesn't contradict the previous books. He isn't going to write, so you can easily guess wheather she was planned before or not. As it is there is no proof to that he had or hadn't.

 

It may seems like I am contradicting myself....but I am saying that to me it is obvious that she wasn't planned. (Shrug) Wheather ther is proof or not. And every one is entitled to their opinion.

 

My point with Soreli is she is strong wihtout being a strong channeler plus a lot of terangreal. We haven't seen Cady, face anyone without those. And as I said before, a eigth year old can be as tough as her with those things.

 

 

[Harmless Bandit]

What I get is, Cadsuane's toys have become part of who she is (whether she realises it or not), and she relies on them perhpas too much.

 

Consider a hypothetical situation like this: Cadsuane pushes Taim's buttons (the way she does with Rand). Unlike Rand, he has no qualms about killing women (especially Aes Sedai, I would say), and he strikes me as someone who angers quickly. He would be in for a surprise if he channeled at Cadsuane, of course. The point being, she would not push his buttons without her set, because she knows she would not be able to stand up to Taim if she angered him to the point of lashing out with the Power (something Rand almost did, and he is more reasonable than Taim).

 

I did mention Lan and Rand somewhere as a crude analogy. They are deadly warriors, with and without a sword (channeling aside). Galad is deadly with a sword as well, but how would he fare without one?

 

The point is, Cadsuane relies on her strength of will and her channeling abilities (ergo her toys) all meshed up together, at least IMO. Remove the toys, and the channeling and you have Cadsuane 1.0, not so impressive as Cadsuane 2.0 With Sorilea, it's sheer strength of character, no channeling involved, and she is easily Cadsuane 2.0's equal and more IMHO.

 

[anamul]

 

 

The point is, Cadsuane relies on her strength of will and her channeling abilities (ergo her toys) all meshed up together, at least IMO. Remove the toys, and the channeling and you have Cadsuane 1.0, not so impressive as Cadsuane 2.0 With Sorilea, it's sheer strength of character, no channeling involved, and she is easily Cadsuane 2.0's equal and more IMHO.

 

 

Yep.

[Luckers]

I disagree completely. We have never seen Cadsuane use either her channeling or her toys to get her way with the others. She's not even used the threat of them. In ever situation she has gotten her way through strength of will in exactly the same manner as Sorilea.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

That would actually be funny, because it would mean that BS is still reading these posts.  Plus, it would give us some foreshadowing about Moiraine returning, as there hasn't been any of that.

UNQUOTE

 

You mean apart from her letter to Mat? And the entry in her description where it says she is "apparantly dead?" Come on, man!

 

As for Cadsuane being nothing without her ter'angreal, there is no way she would have gained her reputation purely because of them. From some of the comments on here its as if you guys think she had them as soon as she gained the shawl and thought "Oh, these will help me get famous, I'll start hunting men." Granted, she would have had a lot of help from them in hunting male channellers. But that doesnt mean she is any less than she was when we didnt know about them. And although it pains me I must agree with Luckers in the fact that we have never seen her use her toys to win over anyone.

[Vambram]

I agree with Luckers and Dreadlord.

[benr]

QUOTE

That would actually be funny, because it would mean that BS is still reading these posts.  Plus, it would give us some foreshadowing about Moiraine returning, as there hasn't been any of that.

UNQUOTE

 

You mean apart from her letter to Mat? And the entry in her description where it says she is "apparantly dead?" Come on, man!

 

Indeed!  The quote is from me; it is called "irony".  When I first started this thread, the lack of foreshadowing for Caddy was most important in getting me thinking of Caddy as a late addition.

 

As for Cadsuane being nothing without her ter'angreal, there is no way she would have gained her reputation purely because of them. From some of the comments on here its as if you guys think she had them as soon as she gained the shawl and thought "Oh, these will help me get famous, I'll start hunting men." Granted, she would have had a lot of help from them in hunting male channellers. But that doesnt mean she is any less than she was when we didnt know about them. And although it pains me I must agree with Luckers in the fact that we have never seen her use her toys to win over anyone.

 

In this I agree with you 100%.  Caddy is formidable no matter what.  She held her own in her one on one with Sorilea; she bullied everyone in far Madding; she even has you and Luckers bamboozled as to her origins - no mean feat!

[Guest Dreadlord]

It isnt her origins that are being questioned mate