Demandred = Taim?

[nashdude]

I know this has been done to death, but I had a few thoughts I wanted to get out of the way...

 

But on that Moridin wasn't reborn until ACoS, so he would have had to infeltrate the black tower, kill Taim (who already seemed to be acting pretty darkfriendish), and start posing as him.

 

But really the fact that Rand recognized the face of the man from Shadar Logoth, and us knowing that that man wasn't Taim pretty much nails this coffin shut.

 

This is why I think that the one we recognize as Taim is actually Demandred in disguise. I'm not sure exactly how RJ worded his rebuttal, but it was something to the effect of "Taim is not Demandred". Of course not, because Taim was around before Demandred was loosed from SG. However, if Demandred KILLED Taim and REPLACED him, then the character that is established---Taim---need not be the same as Demandred. So RJ would be telling the truth, and yet the one we THINK is Taim is actually NOT the ORIGINAL Taim (who is dead) but is actually Demandred.

 

Reasons I think this:

 

1) "The M'Hael" -- He's jealous of Rand's authority and position, as is Demandred

 

2) Experience -- By the time Rand meets Taim, he already knows much more than he should, having learned by trial and error---to include how to find OTHER men who can channel. Who would he have experimented on? This leads to one of two conclusions. Either Taim was already dead and replaced at this time, or he had an Asmodean-type teacher---possibly Demandred himself, working to build up the character and reputation of Taim before he killed him and took his place.

 

3) "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" -- These were words spoken to Demandred by the DO himself. Demandred passed them on to the other Forsaken. There is no evidence that they passed them on to their lackeys, which signifies at the very least that Taim is a major player, if not Demandred at least a new Forsaken. Note also that he spoke them in reply to a White Tower contingent sent to bond Asha'man who were willing to accept the bond. This is something that the EGWENE White Tower heard from Rand, NOT the Elaida White Tower. This suggests that while Taim mistook one Tower for the other, he at least saw the significance of the bonding---which he took to be at Rand's orders, illiciting the DO's words.

 

My thoughts...

[Rahlian]

When RJ said Taim is not Damandred, I think he meant that Taim is Taim and Demandred, never was, is not and never will be Taim. Very interesting theory though. You actually seem to have thought this one out, unlike quite a few Taimandred theorists

[nashdude]

When RJ said Taim is not Damandred, I think he meant that Taim is Taim and Demandred, never was, is not and never will be Taim.

 

While I would tend to agree with you, it would not be unlike RJ to "mislead" people. Case in point, Rand. Rand IS NOT LTT, and yet, he is LTT REBORN. Their personalities are NOTHING alike, and yet there are similarities, and growing MORE similar as time goes on. Another would be Isam/Luc/Slayer. Slayer cannot truly be said to be either Luc or Isam, but rather he is a MIXTURE of the two.

 

Granted, the Demandred/Taim situation would be different---as we know for certain that Demandred is not yet dead, and thus cannot have been reborn or amalgamated from someone else---but the same rules apply. Misdirection is a tool that RJ uses often, so it would be perfectly in keeping for him to say that Taim is not Demandred---which is not a lie---when in truth Demandred is (in the form of) Taim!

 

BTW... thanks for the plug on my theory. And you're quite right, I COULD be wrong, but if it walks like a duck...

[Bob T Dwarf]

Week 4 Question: At recent book signing following the release of Crossroads of Twilight, it was reported that you confirmed that the Forsaken Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, who was introduced to Rand at the beginning of Lord of Chaos. Have you confirmed that Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, leader of the Black Tower?

 



Robert Jordan Answers: Yes. Demandred has never posed as Mazrim Taim. All right, those of who fell over from the shock of a simple, straightforward answer can get up off the floor now. Sometimes, simple and straightforward can be the most devious of all, as any student of Aes Sedai will tell you. <Maniacal laughter from the shadows!>


 

 

 

[Rahlian]

Well, that sucks. Another Taimandred theory shot down... sigh when will people learn XD

[nashdude]

Week 4 Question: At recent book signing following the release of Crossroads of Twilight, it was reported that you confirmed that the Forsaken Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, who was introduced to Rand at the beginning of Lord of Chaos. Have you confirmed that Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, leader of the Black Tower?

 



Robert Jordan Answers: Yes. Demandred has never posed as Mazrim Taim. All right, those of who fell over from the shock of a simple, straightforward answer can get up off the floor now. Sometimes, simple and straightforward can be the most devious of all, as any student of Aes Sedai will tell you. <Maniacal laughter from the shadows!>


 

Woops... missed that one hehe

 

Of course... does "has never" mean "WILL never", given the timeframe in which the question is asked (LoC)? At the time, he could just as easily have still been Taim for real ::)

[Rahlian]

Oh come on, thats just being stubborn. Go post ing the Who killed Asmo thread, you can be as stubbon as you like there

[nashdude]

Oh come on, thats just being stubborn. Go post ing the Who killed Asmo thread, you can be as stubbon as you like there

 

Bah... no fun. EVERYBODY knows it was Bela ;)

[Guest Dreadlord]

PLEASE!! Someone put me out of my misery! Not ANOTHER!

 

RJ said we havent seen an alter ego of Demandreds when book 10 came out. Why wasnt this put on one of the ten million other threads opened for the very same thing? if you look at how many pages of threads there are, that number would be halved if people spoke about this on one thread instead of making a new one every time

[trakand_01]

It would help if people read the do and dont sticky too  ;)

[Guest Dreadlord]

Ive asked Majsju if he will do something about this, very irritating

[Luckers]

Unfortunately there is not really much Maj can do--he is the only mod of the General forum, and there is only so much one man can do. Deleting threads, locking threads, posting sticky's... it all only goes so far, no matter how diligent--and Maj is diligent.

 

Besides, at least it means we're getting new posters, and thats always a plus.

[Asmo]

No matter where, no matter what, you'll always see more and more of these Taimandred topics. As if anyone needed RJ's confirmation after WH came out. I'm putting up a post I made somewhere some time ago for everyone's interest.

 

=========================

 

Seriously, I could understand that theory before Winter's Heart was published. But ever since the 9th book came out, not to mention RJ actually stating that Demandred had not been posing as Taim (a somewhat loose to interpret statement, to be sure, but still...), I cannot understand why many people still claim that Taim cannot possibly be anyone else than Demandred.

 

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not claiming that you think (or ever thought, for that matter) that Taim is Demandred. Hell, before reading WH, I thought Taim was Demandred. However, all I've seen as a counter to Taim = Demandred theories is "RJ said so". Quite satisfactory reply, no matter how you look at it, but...

 

  Suddenly he saw people off to the right ahead of him through the trees, and sheltered behind a rough gray trunk. A bald- headed old man with a fringe of white hair was limping along between two women, one of them beautiful in a wild way, the other stunning. What were they doing in these woods? Who were they? Friends of al'Thor, or just people in the wrong place at the wrong time? He hesitated to kill them, whoever they were. Any use of the Power would warn al'Thor. He would have to wait until they passed. The old man's head was turning as if he were searching for something among the trees, but Demandred doubted a fellow that decrepit could see very far.

  Abruptly the old man stopped and thrust out his hand straight toward Demandred, and Demandred found himself fran tically fending off a net of saidin that struck his warding much harder than it should have, as hard as his own spinning would. That tottering old man was an Asha'man!

 

If Demandred was Taim, would he really not recognize one of his own Asha'man, especially someone he had declared a traitor?

 

=========================

 

Well, whatever. The issue is resolved already time after time, but some extra confirmation never hurt anyone (I guess).

[benr]

The issue will never go away until Demo is unmasked in AMoL, and will still re-appear for every new serious reader of WOT from now through forever. This is the result of new posters encountering the same things everyone else did when reading earlier.  As Luckers said, that is not a bad thing.  If you were a high school teacher or college professer, teaching the same subject year after year, you would encounter this same phenomenom.  Deal with it with patience!

[Jehaine]

I'm pretty sure the 'old man' is a Forsaken though. Demandred looks completely taken by surprise there at finding out the man can channel as strong as he can. Judging by the two women at his side, i'd say he was Moridin, maybe?

 

Haven't read WH, so if i'm stating the obvious i apologise beforehand.

[Majsju]

I'm pretty sure the 'old man' is a Forsaken though. Demandred looks completely taken by surprise there at finding out the man can channel as strong as he can. Judging by the two women at his side, i'd say he was Moridin, maybe?

 

Haven't read WH, so if i'm stating the obvious i apologise beforehand.

 

Well, without revealing too much, once you read WH, you will realise why the old man can channel as strongly as he does.

 

He is not a forsaken.

[Asmo]

I'll literally die laughing if Brandon decides to play a joke on us, and when Rand meets Taim again he assumes he is Demandred.

 

Rand: "Wait... one of the Forsaken... you are Demandred!!"

 

Taim: "No, haha."

 

Also, if the old man was Moridin, he would have butchered Demandred, not fought on even grounds with him. If you are curious, or if anyone else who doesn't remember wishes to know...

 

SPOILERS - HIGHLIGHT TO VIEW:

 

The old man was the Asha'man Damer Flinn, bonded with the Warder Bond by Corele Hovian. During the final battle in Winter's Heart, when Rand and Nynaeve tried to cleanse Saidin, Flinn, Corele and Sarene Nemdahl - two of the Dragonsword Aes Sedai - linked to fight the incoming Forsaken. Flinn and his group faced Demandred, but both sides survived the encounter unharmed.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Taim is 100% himself. Pure good old Mazrim Taim.

 

If anything (and thats a massive if) I would have thought if Taim wasnt himself then maybe Moridin in disguise. But to me Taims many oddities are too obvious for any of the Forsaken. I think RJ was trying to throw us off there.

[Jehaine]

AH! Thanks for the heads up Asmo, i knew about that scene from several threads in here but as i mentioned i never really got that far into the books. I just assumed the two women with him could have been Cyndane and Moghedien instead ^^;

[Red2111]

Moridin didn't need to show up, he just sent his dogs to go sniff out things for him.  He's Nea'Blis and they are, after all, just plain forsaken.

 

the only reason i can see Taim as one of the forsaken in disguise is becuase it would be the perfect position for one of the forsaken to be in.  Rand says to watch out for quick learners to be the Forsaken, but makes no mention of Taim himself.  also i think if Taim is a Forsaken in disguise (the only male forsaken left is Moridin and Demandred; seeing as Hilma(Aran'gar) cant be in two places at once and the disguise weave woudln't hold up cause it's too far fromt he true holder.) anyways, if Taim is one of the remaining male Forsaken, the original Taim was killed and the Taim we were introduced to is the forsaken; so in effect we, as the reader, were never introduced tot he real Taim.

 

also, i find it odd that Taim didn't send a drone of his Asha'man to inspect the blaze of Saidin, nor came himself to see who was drawling so much power.  which leads me to conclude he either was there as the forsaken, or is Moridin sending the forsaken out to report for him. 

 

just knowing how much Taim thrives on power, and the fact he didn't show up to such a drawling beacon raised suspicion in me.

[Asmo]

Everyone was afraid to even come close to Shadar Logoth at the time of the Cleansing. With such a crazy amount of the One Power flailing about, Taim wouldn't be mad enough to risk closing in. He could probably guess it was Rand who did it, anyway, especially if he is a Darkfriend, and he wasn't exactly on good terms with him. So yeah, Taim had a lot of reasons not to try approaching that, whether he was one of the Forsaken, a simple Darkfriend or even on the Rand's side. The case was pretty much the same with Moridin. True Power or not, he couldn't stand up to a strength that could ravage continents. Probably why he sent the rest of the Forsaken, and not an organized army of Forsaken, Black sisters, Darkfriend Asha'man, gholam and whatnot. He hoped Rand would get rid of them on the spot. Or his friends, anyway. Although, if I was Moridin, I might have considered the chance of teleporting right in front of Rand with the True Power undetected, quickly Balefire stuff away and grab the access keys and run. But it would be a mad risk since Moridin was also affected by the channeling trouble Rand faced.

[Lille]

Another argument that says Taim isnt Demandred is that Taim is really concerned about Rand being mad. I believe its when Rand gives him the Sword and Dragon pins. They go into the farm house, Taim is rude and LTT gets angry, wanting to kill him, Rand starts arguing loudly with LTT and Taim looks really concerned. I believe that Taim just dislikes Rand, maybe he really thought himself to be the Dragon Reborn...

[Asmo]

Come to think of it, didn't Mazrim Taim say "Let the Lord of Chaos rule"? And if I remember correctly, which I think I do, wasn't that how Ishamael (post-Moridinification) called the Dragon (I just can't locate that darn quote though)? Which would imply that Taim is, actually, on Rand's side... except in a rather... well, mislead sort of way. I really do think Taim is on Rand's side. He only really tried to go up against Rand when Rand showed signs of madness. Plus the one who ordered them to hunt down Rand at Far Madding could've been Osan'gar in disguise - there was no reason for him to just disappear if he was one of the Forsaken, if the others were Darkfriends too. Unless Taim was really high-ranking. Which is plausible. Bah, Taim is one of the biggest puzzles in the series.

[Red2111]

no, Taim is a dark Friend and if he's not a forsaken then hes working for one and will be head of the Dreadlords come TG.  too much tension and such has been built against him for RJ to have turned the plot around and say "yeah he was good all along"

 

i know for a fact Demandred said "Let the LoC rule" twice in LoC, in the beginning and in the end.  and i think LoC was mentioned a few times in the FoH as a childrens nursery thingy; but i don't recall Taim ever saying it.

 

*blushes* for a while after reading LoC i kept saying to Bubba "So when is this LoC character going to show his face??"  he just shook his head and said keep reading.  i'd read a few more chapters and ask again lmao

 

 

i mean another point that says Taim is a bad guy, besides creating his own faction within the BT to take down Rand (maybe a training for Dreadlords??)  is the fact he issues oders that the Asha'man with rand were traitors; not wanting Rand to really have any strong channlers on his side.

 

 

i knwo Rand was buisy and everything, but he should have kept a closer watch on the BT to make sure Taim didn't do something like that.  try to set up his own eyes and ears within it.  liek i said, i know the boy has too much on his plate already, but seeing how Taim's rather ambitous and Rand wasn't even sure how strong Taim really is and that he needs them for TG i'd want to visit them each month, make sure they know the DR on site and know who the true leader is type thing.

[Paviel]

"i know for a fact Demandred said "Let the LoC rule" twice in LoC, in the beginning and in the end.  and i think LoC was mentioned a few times in the FoH as a childrens nursery thingy; but i don't recall Taim ever saying it."

 

On the very last page of Knife of Dreams, Taim makes an agreement with the Red Ajah. With apologies for any Spoilers, but I've tried to color it:

 

 

"What would you have me say? Fair is fair? Equal shares? Accept 'very well' and ask who will let you bond them. Besides, you must remember the old saying. Let the Lord of Chaos rule." The chamber erupted with men's laughter.

 

Pevara had never heard any saying like that. The laughter made the hair on the back of her neck try to stand.