Theodrin

[Setalle]

I have looked for a relevant post, but they all kinda get offtopic...lol

Any thoughts on Mesaana being Theodrin? I know it would be kind of hard to bounce back and forth, well, maybe not, that would actually explain why M doesn't know a whole lot of what goes on in the Tower, she plays kind of dumb with Alviarin.

The best argument for this is the gesture they both make while thinking...tapping their lips. Maybe I'm reaching, but it's the best clue I can find so far. Maybe it is explained more in KoD, I haven't read it but twice.

That is what I love love love about these books. I could read them a hundred times and still find new things!!

[Dragon21]

I suppose anything is possible right?  ;D

I had never made that connection.

But it could be one of those things that make you go hmmmmmm.

[Harmless Bandit]

I believe we've seen a few other characters tapping their lips when thinking about something, though I can't pinpoint one right now. And Mesaana has blue eyes and blond hair, yes? And Theodrin is dark? Of course, with illusion...

 

But no, I don't think Theodrin is Mesaana...

[benr]

Laras is Mesaana.

[Tigara]

Nope, it's Danelle.

[bjclinton]

In LoC we see someone sneaking around TAR, and the person being described sounds exactly like Theodrin's desciption. Does anyone remember that? Do we ever find out what she's up to? I'm rereading now and just started APoD, but i'm quite sure it was mid-way through LoC.

 

It seemed very suspicious to me.

[Luckers]

Theodrin is not Mesaana--Mesaana's comments to Aran'gar in KoD show a clear lack of involvement in the Rebels camp.

[DarkJustice]

In LoC we see someone sneaking around TAR, and the person being described sounds exactly like Theodrin's desciption. Does anyone remember that? Do we ever find out what she's up to? I'm rereading now and just started APoD, but i'm quite sure it was mid-way through LoC.

 

It seemed very suspicious to me.

 

I remember that passage (I just finished rereading the book).  I believe that was talking about Leane.  Egwene still didn't know about Siuane and Leane being in TAR or even being in the rebel camp at that time.

[Nethran Thaimal]

Verin taps her lips from time to time.  She's the only one I noticed doing it at the time, and so I asked for a thread on the other discussion section, but Majsuju shot me down. :(  Either way, it couldn't be Verin, anyway.  She refers to the Forsaken as the Forsaken instead of the Chosen in her POV sections. Elza, a seemingly unimportant Aes Sedai, refers to them as the Chosen, and she's not even that close to any of the main group until shortly before that point, so you'd think Verin would be more closely aquainted to the Forsaken as a black sister than Elza is, and would probably call them Chosen herself.  But this isn't about Verin, so I'll stop with that line of thought.

 

Mesaana has to be often in the Tower.  She know too much of the goings on to be skipping from place to place, and it would probably be noticed if she was days away from either place.  Also, she'd not have been able to leave Salidar as Theodrin.  They'd have noticed her missing for any length of time when she was an Accepted, and I doubt one of the high and mighty Chosen would allow themselves to be birched by a so-called Aes Sedai.

 

She'd be masquerading as an employee of the White Tower, someone taking refuge in it, or pre-existing sister whom she had killed, most likely.  She hasn't been long enough out of the Bore to have gone through novice and accepted training, and she cannot still be a novice or accepted as evidenced by the dress Alviarin notices breaking through her Mask of Mirrors.

Flickers of broze silk with a thin border of intricately embroidered black scrollwork shoerd through.

 

I'd say she's not a servant or a maid to one of the sisters. She'd not have the money for a dress like that if she were, I think.  I'm almost positive that she was AT Dumai's Wells, so that rules out a woman taking refuge. That means she's a Brown sister(going by the dress).  I'll see if I can find anything in Lord of Chaos about a Brown sister with Galina Casban..

 

None mentioned.  12 sisters escaped Dumai's Wells, according to Covarla Baldene in chapter 32 of A Crown of Swords.  The only ones mentioned by name are Covarla Baldene and Lusonia Cole. One's red Ajah, and the other's Ajah is not given. Obviously, Katerine Alruddin escapes later from the Aiel camp.  Being that none are known to be Brown... I guess we'll know when Jordan/Sanderson reveal it for us. :D

[aevogt]

I don't think she was at the wells.  She tells the rest at a chosen social hour that "al'Thor will be in my hands within the month.  This while he was being brought to Tar Valon.

[Nethran Thaimal]

She tells Alviarin of events at the Wells before any of the other sisters arrive back at the Tower, and we know that Galina never sees her to tell, nor Elza. Maybe Katerine after she escapes from the Aiel, but I doubt it.  I think she had been there and seen.

[Snowy Dawn]

``I'll see if I can find anything in Lord of Chaos about a Brown sister with Galina Casban.''

 

Nesune is a Brown, but she is clearly not Mesaana. IIRC there is something in the FAQ about Mesanna being Danelle, a Brown sister with few friends. On the other hand in ``The Truth of a Viewing'', Siuan says ``Little Danelle actually smirked at her.'' (TSR, page 765). Was Mesaana little? And would Mesanna smirk? Or was that the ``real'' Danelle before Mesaana disposed of her and then replaced her?

 

``She tells Alviarin of events at the Wells before any of the other sisters arrive back at the Tower''

 

But there are other ways for news of Dumai's Wells to have reached one of the Forsaken, surely. If nothing else, Perrin remarks on the vast numbers of birds feasting on the corpses, some of which could have been the Dark One's spies. (Early on in <i>A Crown of Thorns</i>, IIRC).

[trakand_01]

I have always just had to take other people's word for it when it comes to Danelle because I have to say, unless I had read the series over and over with a specific intention of looking for Mesaana hints, I dont think I would pick up on Danelle. I think it is likely something that was discovered by someone reading the series for about the 15th time, looking to see who Mesaana was.

 

I dont know if the bronze-coloured skirst are as much of a definite sign of her Ajah, IMO, but considering that she and Demandred are the last two that we're looking for, I note that RJ has left her to the last of the women, and I can't help but think she's going to be a real revelation.

 

I'm not making any sort of theory out of this, it's a personal thought, but have we had any POV from either Searin or Doesine? I know they both swore 'I am not Black Ajah' or 'I am not a Darkfriend' but that doesnt mean 'I am not Mesaana'. Mesaana isnt Black Ajah or a Darkfriend, she's much, much more.

 

I hope we've been thrown off track and lulled into a false sense of security because Searin would be such a great surprise.

[Snowy Dawn]

``I'm not making any sort of theory out of this, it's a personal thought, but have we had any POV from either Saerin or Doesine?''

 

Not yet, but neither also for Yukiri, just for Saeine and Pevara, IIRC. But Doesine is Yellow Ajah, so it does not seem likely that it is her. Saerin is actually older than Mesaana, I think, for what it is worth. Anyway, surely there is no way Mesaana would take even the first oath, never mind all three. Imagine her not being able to shade the truth, at least, in meetings with the other Forsaken. And the other effect of taking an oath on a binder is that your lifespan gets reduced, to about half---one of the reasons why Namene Damendar Boann refused to do so, becoming Semirhage instead. Would Mesaana really want to go from an expected life span of 500--600 years to one of 250--300 years? (Assuming she is hedging her bets about the promise of immortality.)

[trakand_01]

We have had a POV from Yukiri, at the beginning of book 10. It shows she's very much not BA and in fact is absolutely terrified of them. She's walking the tower corridors with a woman (I forget her name) of the Rebels, that they have put under oath to help them.

 

I think actually that Mesaana is my favourite Forsaken, after Lanfear. I dont know why, I just think she's intriguing.

[Snowy Dawn]

(I forget her name)

 

Thanks for the reminder, I just checked and it was Meidani: interestingly enough, the Grey whom the five have set to spy on Elaida, as Meidani was a former pillow friend of Elaida's. But Elaida thinks she is spying for the rebels. Wheels within wheels.

[trakand_01]

The one thing that i find absolutely absurd about that whole plotline is that Elaida went to Seaine because she was convinced Alviarin was Black, and that eventually, the research would come back to Alviarin and she would be found out.

 

Easy enough, but surely it would jsut have been easier to say 'I think Alviarin might be Black, can you do some digging around for me?'.

 

But no, so the searchers spend all their time thinking "How on earth do the BA know everything that comes out of Elaida's office?".

 

Now, I'm not Aes Sedai, and i'm not a detective, but it wouldnt take a massive dropping penny for me to realise that the most obvious answer is one of the following;

 

1. Elaida is Black

2. Alviarin is Black

 

The Elaida question would be quite easy to disprove - a well thought out question from Seaine to Elaida in one of her 'reports' (which I'm sure she must give to her at some point) would surely get some sort of proof?

 

So that leaves... Alviarin. Hmmm.

 

I dont know what happens with Alviarin and at this point I dont really want to, I presume she gets her comeuppance, horrible little woman, but I find it amazing that they've gone so long without having her as the main suspect.

 

 

[Luckers]

Except Elaida was actually asking if Alviarin had joined in treasonous correspondence with Rand. She was so vague it got misconstrued--and thats the same reason they didn't feel comfortable approaching her at first, because they weren't sure.

 

I have always just had to take other people's word for it when it comes to Danelle because I have to say, unless I had read the series over and over with a specific intention of looking for Mesaana hints, I dont think I would pick up on Danelle.

 

It's like that with a lot of RJ's stuff, but Danelle fits... in a lot of ways.

[Setalle]

Well, I gotta say thanks for not laughing at my theory! I did, after I read just a little further on. Going by Theo tapping her lips is ridiculous, a lot of people do it...thanks for humoring me! lol

 

Alviarin is a suspect, I can't remember who thought it, I think Yukiri while walking with Meidani. She thinks about the fact that Alviarin knows what comes out of Elaida's study, and says that she was being investigated as well. It's just a matter of time. Although characters not putting two and two together is what I think makes these books as deep as they are, the fact that the characters aren't really all that bright. They don't trust anyone more than they have to, so a lot of information gets unshared.

 

And I think the colors on Mesaana's dress are very important. It seems like sisters wear their Ajah colors, albeit very subtly sometimes. I've been on the lookout for black or other very dark colors in a dress for a while! I seem to remember the black sisters do wear black.

[Snowy Dawn]

A few notes about Mesaana:

 

The BWB says that she is:

 

  (a) of ``average height and appearance''

  (b) hard-headed, practical and intelligent

  © given to introspection and ``taken for being dreamy''

  (d) about 300 years old when sealed in the bore.

  (e) the creator of ``Mesaana's Children'', who kill

      teachers, researchers, &c., and destroy libraries,

      research facilities, and such.

  (f) Is probably stronger in the power than any woman of

      the White Tower.

 

Adding in what Alviarin sees in ``A Mark'' (<i>Crossroads of Twilight</i>)

 

  (g) has blue eyes

  (h) appears to be ``just short of her middle years''

  (i) wears green with bronze embroidery

 

Unless I am missing something, we are not told what color her hair is, and dark hair and blue eyes is not an unknown combination :-) We cannot conclude at this point that she has blond hair. Point (a) does not rule out Danelle, even tho' she is called ``little'' by Siuan, as we observe (the tall) Semirhage disguising herself as (the short) Tuon in <i>Knife of Dreams</i>. And we are told that Danelle has blue eyes. Point (f) however, means that somehow Mesaana can disguise her strength in the power, that she does not mask it entirely but is able to make herself appear weaker than she is. So far as I know, this latter ability is not something heretofore mentioned in the series or in the BWB. Point (i) suggests either the Brown or the Green as the Ajah of the sister Mesaana is pretending to be, but I note that often we have seen sisters wearing one color striped or slashed or embroidered in their Ajah color, which suggests Brown for the Ajah in question.

 

Mesaana claims, in the Anasaline Gardens scene (``At the Gardens'', <i>Knife of Dreams</i>), that the plan to split the tower and set the Ajahs against one another is hers ``from the start''. Moridin, enters at just that point, tho', and says the he, not Mesaana, will determine when Egwene is ``set free'', so perhaps Moridin is starting to take over that plan.  (Little do they realize that Egwene is strong enough in character and will to effectively work against this plan. Aran'gar/Halima/Balthamel has a glimmer about that, I think, but the others see only a young woman who can be easily manipulated. A ``figurehead'', Mesaana calls her.)

 

The important point about Mesaana's plan, however, is that is suggests that the sister she is pretending to be is in fact one of Elaida's ``council'', that is those, both sitters and not, who aided her in removing Siuan Sanche. It seems to me, that is, that Mesaana had a hand in encouraging Elaida to engage in this usurpation, and that makes it likely to me at least that the sister she is pretending to be is one of the same. In the usurpation scene itself (``The Truth of a Viewing'' in <i>The Shadow Rising</i>), we learn about Alviarin, Joline Maza, Shemerin (the yellow later demoted to Accepted by Elaida), and Danelle (``her big blue eyes not dreamy at all''). From the prologue of <i>The Fires of Heavan</i> we add Teslyn, Javindhra (red and a sitter as we know from early on in KoD), Evanellein (Gray, and curiously, one who is later reported by Yukiri---early on in KoD---to be in favor of pulling Elaida down), and Andaya, also Gray. We are told that there are four Reds in all; I suspect that Duhara is one of the other three. Does anyone know who the others are? There are in all, one Brown (Danelle), one Green (Joline), and one Yellow (Shemerin), four Reds (only Javindhra and Teslyn named), at least two Grays, and at least one White (Alviarin). In the usurpation scene in <i>The Shadow Rising</i>, Siuan says that more than dozen appear, Elaida being one, of course. But of those named, and the two unknown Reds (one unknown if Duhara is one of the four), one counts only 10. The one Brown, Green, and Yellow, are all there is, so we must assume another two, at least, from the Gray and the White. Any thoughts on who these might be?

 

Finally, any thoughts on who (other than Danelle) among those named here might be Mesaana's cover? The only Green is Joline, but that seems unlikely. I also think we can rule out Teslyn. Duhara is a Domani, the which, I suggest, pretty much rules her out as well, if she is one of the four Reds. (See the description early on in ``The House on Full Moon Street'' (<i>Knife of Dreams</i>.)

[benr]

I think that the basic assumption that it must be one of these is not necessarily accurate because Mesaana has Alviarin so much in her control that she doesn't need to be directly involved.  She seems to get information ahead of time from almost any arena (Dumai's Wells, Elaidra's meetings, even Alviari's encounters with Elaida by herself), so she must have multile information sources - as one of the Forsaken, she is privy to methods of gathering info beyond our normal ideas.