Is Selene actually Lanfear?

[Dashiva]

Well ive been looking for someone to post this for years and ive never seen it. So here it goes. Through my 5th time through the evidence shows that indeed Selene is not Lanfear the WHOLE time. I don't presume to know who is impersonating as Selene, in fact im open to opinions. But to be brief ill state the reasons/evidence why I think Selene is not Lanfear.

 

To be breif, in TGH we are introduced to Selene and she meets Rand in another world via Portal Stone. She talks of how she is from Carhien and how she has estates there. At the end of the book after the battle at Falme, Min is taking care of Rand when in walks Selene and marks him on his forehead (min says it looks like the dragons fang) and tells Min that she can take care of him until she comes for him. She even states shes Lanfear!

 

Now the tricky business. In TSR Selene talks to Rand in the stone. This is what she says, "I go where i wish to be. You have been marked, but no matter. You were mine, and you are mine. Any other is no more than a caretaker whose time has passed. I will lay claim to what is mine openly, now."

 

When Rand talks about Carhien this is what she says, "You have been marked. Estates in Carhien? I may have had estates in those lands, once. The land has changed so much that nothing is as it was. Selene is only a name i sometimes use, Lews Therin. The name i made my own is, Lanfear."

 

So obviously Selene from TGH and TSR is not exactly the same. She contradicts herself and what she says. So the question i guess im trying to ask is, who the flaming is Selene in TGH? I reasoned out its a female forsaken but i find no evidence in the series about it. and its obvious that Lanfear was not Selene in TGH. Does anyone know or does anyone have any input. please let me know and please shed some light on this subject. thanks.

 

 

[algspkr]

Now the tricky business. In TSR Selene talks to Rand in the stone. This is what she says, "I go where i wish to be. You have been marked, but no matter. You were mine, and you are mine. Any other is no more than a caretaker whose time has passed. I will lay claim to what is mine openly, now."

She is referring to her beauty not effecting Rand the same was in TSR as it did in TGH because he is falling for Elayne at the time.

When Rand talks about Carhien this is what she says, "You have been marked. Estates in Carhien? I may have had estates in those lands, once. The land has changed so much that nothing is as it was. Selene is only a name i sometimes use, Lews Therin. The name i made my own is, Lanfear."

She does not remember exactly what crap she fed Rand in TGH.

 

[Dashiva]

If Selene was the one who marked him, how does Lanfear say that someone else marked him then? You think you would remember marking someone as important as Rand?

[bRANDan]

I don't think that the marking she was talking about was physical. I think the "mark" she gave Rand in Falme wasn't a "mark" but more a lover's caress. The mark she is referring to are the territorial marks, as in she marked him as hers but now another chit (Elayne) has marked him as hers. That's why she says "any other is no more than a caretaker whose time has passed. I will lay claim to what is mine openly now". It's her claim (Rand/LTT) that she has marked, at least that is what I've always thought. I think Selene was always Lanfear.

[Luckers]

RJ has stated that when she touches him in tGH she was delving him to check his health and nothing more.

 

Selene is Lanfear, she lied about her life as a Cairhienin to esablish her personality as Selene, the confliction is that she later spoke the truth.

[trakand_01]

If Selene was the one who marked him, how does Lanfear say that someone else marked him then? You think you would remember marking someone as important as Rand?

 

I assumed she meant that he had been marked by Ilyena, remember Lanfear sees Lews Therin, not Rand Al'Thor, she sees the soul within him. LTT shunned Mierin for Ilyena, whom he married.

 

She could also be referring to Min, Aviendha or Elayne.

 

In BWB RJ explicitly states that

 

"Upon awakening to the world, she adopted the pseudonym Selene and sought out Rand al'Thor, believing him to be somehow connected with, if not the direct reincarnation of, Lews Therin."

[Cybertrolloc]

Decent place for having most things Selene in one place is Night in the Light's Longest Theory (bit down on this page) I think there's some interesting things to argue in the Selene/Lanfear/someone else occasionally bits and pieces in books 2-4...but I don't think it'll be important to the end of the series.

[icspots]

Okay so your theory that Selene was not Lanfear in the beginning of TGH is based on her telling Rand that she was from Cairhien and had estates there and then later saying that she might have once had estates in that land and naming herself Lanfear?  Plain and simple Selene has always been Lanfear. 

 

First Rand saw Lanfear through the window of the house in the village by the river.  Then Lanfear moved Rand/Hurin/Loial into the portal stone world while they were sleeping that night (as evidenced by Egwene's dream, plus Rand being unable to channel anything but spirit while asleep) in order to get herself involved with Rand.  Naming herself a lost and frightened refugee of the troubles just beginning to aflict Cairhien was a much better to ingratiate herself into Rand's company vs. saying, "Hi, I'm one of the Forsaken.".  While in the portal stone world her behavior as a little odd.... not really being afraid of the grolm (since she could easily defend herself), knowing about books Loial doesn't think exist anymore, encouraging Rand to remain in the "oneness" all the time (since she knows that's where he'll sense Saidin), trying to get him to blow the horn to pave his way for glory, flaunting herself while "brushing her dress" to try and entice Rand.  Later on she's just as odd.  She disappears from the inn outside Cairhien without the soldiers seeing her go (and they were really surprised she had left unnoticed), she suddenly reappears before Rand/Loial are chased into the Illuminator's compound, shields them from being seen while inside, and then disappears around a corner (probably via gateway).  From the moment we meet her there's something odd about her, from the way she behaves to her knowledge, to the way she comes and goes without anyone seeing her.  I don't think we see her again until after the battle of Falme and at that point she names herself Lanfear and we all go, "Oh of course!  It was her all the time".  So later in the Stone she appears and Rand thinks she's Selene.  Now Rand never told Min about Selene so there's no reason that Min would connect the two when Lanfear named herself, and we don't know if Min told Rand that Lanfear showed up after the battle.  At this point however she's out in the open. 

 

Lanfear isn't bound by the Three Oaths so she can lie about who she is just like every other Forsaken.  She lied to give herself a cover identity such as other Chosen used.

Rahvin = Gaebril

Sammael = Lord Brend

Be'lal = High Lord Samon

Semmerhige = Anath

Aginor = Dashiva/Osangar

Balthamel = Halima/Arangar

(Granted those last two are a little different)

[trakand_01]

Is Semirhage Alwhin or Anath?

[icspots]

Is Semirhage Alwhin or Anath?

 

Oops, typo..... fixed now. :)

[trakand_01]

No i thought i might have got it wrong, I had been saying how Anath was a really poor disguise for Semi, then when you said Alwhin I thought "oops, maybe i've made an idiot of myself!"

 

:D

[Dragon21]

I must say in all my readings, I have never thought Selene was anybody other than Lanfear at any point.

[Dashiva]

ok now that ive been fully flamed let me explain. first off, of course the forsaken can lie (come on im not a noob). ever since it was revealed that it was lanfear i accepted it, but as i read through time and again it feels like she is contradicting herself. another point i didnt bring up was her visiting perrin in the wolf dream and talking about glory and how he should grab it, same with mat in the white tower. i never thought she cared about anything else than having rand/lews therin. and as the books go on we never see anymore on her talking to perrin or mat. also i never said it was not lanfear, but that it wasnt her at ALL times. im not trying to force this theory down everyones throat just wanted some opinions and if anyone else ever thought of this. and thanks cybertrolloc for the longest theory link. its very interesting. 

[Zarfol]

I must say in all my readings, I have never thought Selene was anybody other than Lanfear at any point.

 

I didn't pick up on this until my second read through. Although after reading TDR my first time when she talks Mat and Perrin, I felt that she was more then what she was letting on.

[trakand_01]

ok now that ive been fully flamed let me explain. first off, of course the forsaken can lie (come on im not a noob). ever since it was revealed that it was lanfear i accepted it, but as i read through time and again it feels like she is contradicting herself. another point i didnt bring up was her visiting perrin in the wolf dream and talking about glory and how he should grab it, same with mat in the white tower. i never thought she cared about anything else than having rand/lews therin.

 

The one thing that Lanfear desires more than anything, ever, is power. One of the main reasons she wanted LTT was that she believed together they could use the Choedan Kal and challenge the Dark One / Creator himself. I'm sure Cyndane will be suitably furious that Nynaeve was the one to use the female Choeden Kal.

[Paviel]

Lanfear isn't bound by the Three Oaths so she can lie about who she is just like every other Forsaken.  She lied to give herself a cover identity such as other Chosen used.

Rahvin = Gaebril

Sammael = Lord Brend

Be'lal = High Lord Samon

Semmerhige = Anath

Aginor = Dashiva/Osangar

Balthamel = Halima/Arangar

(Granted those last two are a little different)

 

You left out Asmodean (Jasin Natael), Demandred, Graendal, Ishamael (Ba'alzamon, and later Moridin), Mesaana, and Moghedien.

 

Of course, some of them don't have cover identities, but it just occurred to me that not all of them needed them, and they could probably take them if they did.

[BrainFireBob]

You mean Moghedian-Gyldin, yes?

 

And to the OP- Lanfear wasn't contradicting herself. She was sloppy, and didn't keep track of her lies- probably because she felt any questioning of her lies could be deflected with "Look! Boobies!"

 

And considering her appearance and Rand's age and prudish upbringing, that's probably not an unrealistic assesment.

[trakand_01]

Boy would she have a shock on her hands if she tried that again now...

[The Lost One]

keep track of her lies- probably because she felt any questioning of her lies could be deflected with "Look! Boobies!"

 

 

Thank you, that made me laugh and I really needed this morning!

[trakand_01]

Is it just me or does anyone else draw distinct similarities between Lanfear and Berelain?

 

I'm not making any suggestions here at all, I like Berelain and have absolutely no thoughts of her being anyone other than who she is, just a mere observation!

[Dashiva]

lol. yea i agree they do resemble alot. I wonder which one is hotter?

[BrainFireBob]

From that we can probably conclude RJ had the same weakness for brunettes I have for blondes.

 

I'm marrying a brunette, my whole family is brunette, but there's something about blondes to me- I guess it's redheads for some. For RJ, seems to be brunettes.

[balefireruinssteaks]

i'm sure Lanfear made excellent use of the fact that she was the most beautiful woman anywhere.  Her beauty was a source of power, and Lanfear is all about power.

 

The Wise Ones even told Aviendha during the first-sisters ceremony "are you saying you won't ever use your beauty to get a clan chief to do something he doesn't want to?"

 

Beautiful women are notorious for resorting to "look!! boobies!!" when nothing else seems to work.  I think they get taught that early on.

[billoumm7]

not necessarily, after all, anyone who can channel the power can change to look like anything or any one... she could channel that much is clear, but if she was really lanfear... that remains in question. after all rand disguised himself to look like a serving man. why couldn't lanfear have changed to look like seline when she went to tear.

[trakand_01]

not necessarily, after all, anyone who can channel the power can change to look like anything or any one... she could channel that much is clear, but if she was really lanfear... that remains in question. after all rand disguised himself to look like a serving man. why couldn't lanfear have changed to look like seline when she went to tear.

 

if you read the Cyndane POVs, we have one just before Rand cleanses the taint, she is taking fealty from a Lord with a pointed beard (Weiramon sprung to mind), and her POVs IMHO squander any doubts about whether or not she was Lanfear. Her memories are those of Lanfear.