Tarna's Lie?

[aevogt]

THere has been some discussion on whether Tarna is Black and I think I may have busted her in a lie.

 

At the beginning of aCoS, Elaida tells Alviarin that Tarna's report on Salidar indicated "100 Rebel Aes Sedai ready to break"  which might have been a good guess, but with reagards to the rebel army, Tarna says "two or three thousand men at most"  off by roughly a factor of 5 at that time,  since their numbers, as reported by Vanin, are in the range of 12-15 thousand. 

 

It makes me wonder, suspicious bastard that I am, is Tarna deliberately misleading Elaida with this report in an effort to bring her down? 

 

She is made Keeper after her return to the Tower and continues to keep secrets from Elaida.  Re.  Ashaman Warders.

 

It begs the question, is she under orders from the Red to prevent further Elaida inspired catastrophies or the Black to further weaken the Tower as a whole?  Another Rebel Ferret?

 

 

[Luckers]

Far more likely is simply that the Rebels kept her from seeing the true size of the army they'd gathered--they were kept in several camps, remember.

 

Tarna isn't a darkfriend, her own POV shows her motivations, and its all toward saving the Tower.

[Guest leebarr]

Most AS has thier nose so far in air that they will not visit the army camp. So her quess could be off like Luckers said.

[aussie_ashaman123]

I agree, Tarnas about as Black as an albino polar bear. Shes doing her best to hold the tower together, trying to limits the amount of damage Elaida has done. Not telling Elaida about bonding Ashaman has more to do with Red Ajah business and it being no concern of the Amyrlin Seat.

[cheyjade]

Isn't the oath to speak no word that isn't true? So, an Aes Sedai can write down any lie she chooses, and not break an oath.

 

Right?

[Farslayer]

Isn't the oath to speak no word that isn't true? So, an Aes Sedai can write down any lie she chooses, and not break an oath.

 

Right?

 

lol never thought of that

[aevogt]

Pevara goes on at length that the best way to find the BA was to go through reports and find proof of the lie that way so no, a Sister bound by the three oaths cannot write a lie either.

 

 

As I read on, Elaida twice mentions her "secret" regarding the rebels that Alviarin does not know.  Could this be the secret of the "too young sitters"?  Were they sent by Elaida?

[PrinceOfRavens]

i thought when rand recieved alviarins letter, he asked moirane if an aes sedai was bound to the oaths when writing. Moirane says that they are.

[cheyjade]

Pevara goes on at length that the best way to find the BA was to go through reports and find proof of the lie that way so no, a Sister bound by the three oaths cannot write a lie either.

 

Duh Chey. I shoulda remembered that.

[PrinceOfRavens]

stupid me  ;D repeating an answer :P

[Luckers]

i thought when rand recieved alviarins letter, he asked moirane if an aes sedai was bound to the oaths when writing. Moirane says that they are.

 

Indeed she does, and she was very clear about it. Though why that is the case still escapes me.

 

As I read on, Elaida twice mentions her "secret" regarding the rebels that Alviarin does not know.  Could this be the secret of the "too young sitters"?  Were they sent by Elaida?

 

Her secret is Beonin, who Elaida sent to spread dissent and to hamstring the Rebels. The Too-young sitters were raised from normal Rebel stock by the Footdragging Five, and THEY were sent by the Ajah Heads--or perhaps in collusion with the Ajah Heads.

 

 

[algspkr]

Sorry, I don't remember which book it was in, but while Tarna was visiting Salidar I believe that there was a statement along the lines of a pointless effort being made to keep knowledge of the army being gathered from Tarna, she could not help but notice some part of thousands of men, but some effort was put into keeping it from her.  Also we never got to read the exact words of Tarna's report, so I would guess that the numbers Elida provided were her own interpratation of Tarna's information, and Elida is somewhat notorius for viewing things in the best light to her.

[trakand_01]

i thought when rand recieved alviarins letter, he asked moirane if an aes sedai was bound to the oaths when writing. Moirane says that they are.

 

Indeed she does, and she was very clear about it. Though why that is the case still escapes me.

 

 

Really? Which confuses me now, because at the beginning of I think it's book 7, we have Verin's POV in the prologue, and the head Wise One tells her she must not tell Rand something, Verin says "I will not tell him" then thinks to herself that she has to tell him, and thinks 'a note, perhaps?' ...

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Really? Which confuses me now, because at the beginning of I think it's book 7, we have Verin's POV in the prologue, and the head Wise One tells her she must not tell Rand something, Verin says "I will not tell him" then thinks to herself that she has to tell him, and thinks 'a note, perhaps?' ...

 

That's slightly different.

 

I remember the gist, so I might be off here...

 

I think it revolves around being asked not to speak to Rand about something, which Verin gets around by writing to Rand about something. I don't believe there was ever a lie involved. I guess, through some serious mental gymnastics, that you might also be able to argue that "tell" is related to speech... Possibly. Though that's tenuous.

[trakand_01]

I still think she's wonderfully dodgy.

 

What we need to answer all our questions, is Miss Marple. No-one can resist a nosy little old woman. She'd  have it all sorted in a week or so, and everyone involved feeling incredibly abashed, or dead.

 

She's not a detective, she's just a natural little old woman - incredibly nosy and with no sense of personal space.

[The Lost One]

I was just re-reading the part where Tarna is visiting the rebel camp.  When she is speaking to Nyn. about Rand and trying to get her to come back to the tower, she mentions how her own block was worked out of her by Galina.  That really caught my notice based on the fact we know Galina is black.  It may mean nothing, but that made me more suspicious of Tarna being black.

 

 

 

[Luckers]

Tarna thinks about that herself, about how Galina attempted to seduce her and she'd resisted. She was speaking of a sexual relationship, and ive no doubt that Galina's initial interest came from a sexual place, but ive also no doubt that Galina probably had it in her mind to seduce her into the black, but gave up when she proved too resistant and strong willed.

[algspkr]

Really? Which confuses me now, because at the beginning of I think it's book 7, we have Verin's POV in the prologue, and the head Wise One tells her she must not tell Rand something, Verin says "I will not tell him" then thinks to herself that she has to tell him, and thinks 'a note, perhaps?' ...

 

That's slightly different.

 

I remember the gist, so I might be off here...

 

I think it revolves around being asked not to speak to Rand about something, which Verin gets around by writing to Rand about something. I don't believe there was ever a lie involved. I guess, through some serious mental gymnastics, that you might also be able to argue that "tell" is related to speech... Possibly. Though that's tenuous.

Ok I have decieded that Aes Sedai think like four year olds.  "I didn't hit her mom, I punched her."

[The Lost One]

Tarna thinks about that herself, about how Galina attempted to seduce her and she'd resisted. She was speaking of a sexual relationship, and ive no doubt that Galina's initial interest came from a sexual place, but ive also no doubt that Galina probably had it in her mind to seduce her into the black, but gave up when she proved too resistant and strong willed.

 

Thank you for that clarification Luckers.  I don't know why, but I rather like Tarna and I really don't want her to be black, but that part about Galina getting her block out of her just made me suspicisious.  I can see Tarna being a valuable asset to Eqw, especially with keeping the reds as part of the tower with a new (different) function.  This makes me feel better about her again.

 

 

[Luckers]

I agree, i actually like tarna alot. I think Egwene will eventually name her as Keeper in replacement of Sheriam, and that Tarna will be instrumental in bringing the Red to Egwene--and that she will play a part in saving the Red from the Seanchan.

[Elwinn Taron]

So you don't think there's any chance of Beldeine becoming Keeper--a'la Egwene's Accepted's test experience?

[Dashiva]

It could be a possibility for sure. But events that happen while being tested for Accepted aren't concrete. I did find it interesting how Egwene mentioned both never holding the oath rod and also the Great Purge. So with so many events already in motion maybe Beldeine could be Keeper. Its definitely a possibility.   

[Luckers]

Perhaps--given her oath to Rand i don't see it being until after Tarmon Gai'don though.

 

Remember that Egwene has a solid 650 years ahead of her, and even 300 should she swear the oaths. Long time that, with lots of room for changes. And also remember that her Accepted dream is not prophecy. True it seems more real than most because of the ring ter'angreal's presense, but some things have already been disproven.

[balefireruinssteaks]

The Accepted testing isn't a Fortelling, though it seems to be created from the same "think it, become it" characteristic as The World of Dreams.  This is probably why there was feedback when Egwene's ring ter'angreal was close to the Accepted's testing ter'angreal.  Both are connected to Tel'aran'rhiod in some way.

 

So even though a lot of things appear in the testing (Sharina in Nyneave's test, Egwene and the lack of Oaths, Elaida usurping the Amyrlin Seat, existing Aes Sedai) it doesn't necessarily mean that those events are destined to happen exactly like that. 

 

Remember that after each testing, the Aes Sedai pours water over their heads and says "you are washed clean of what was" "false ambition" etc.  It's the ter'angreal gleaning those things from the novice in order to create the scenario.

 

I think the test is something like Dreaming.  The ter'angreal was probably created by Aes Sedai who could dreamwalk.  I think it seeks those emotions in the novice and then creates a scenario from threads that may happen in their lives in order to get them to Accepted.