Three Oaths - lying

[The Fisher King]

(HighLordXanthus - thanks for the nice sentiments...) ... Anywaz...

 

Mr Ares...Thank you for your directness, and feedback; I honestly didn't take anything you said as personally insulting.

 

I think we do have to still agree to disagree on this one, though.

 

Who knows, maybe I stuggle with the strict definition of ''Known' or ''Implicit.''

 

Please see where I am coming from:

 

It has never been ''Factually Proven/Implicitly STATED'' in the text that Moridin is Ishamael...but we all know he is. For a long time, before it was acknlowledged in the text, we were all figuring out with great certainty that Mat Cauthon's Foxhead Medallion melted Weaves of the Power...Look at the ''Noal/Jain'' thing or...well, or any number of examples that we may not have had clearly explained in the text...but we still ''KNOW/KNEW'', you know?

 

Did you ever think (and he said this actually) that Mr Jordan didn't always want to have to hit his readers over the head with things to make it obvious or 'known.'

 

If you look at the examples I just gave, I think they are JUST LIKE the situatons with Messana, Moggy, Cyndane, Lanfear's Belt etc...No, we haven't been TOLD these things in the text, haven't been hit over the head with them, but I think we all feel like they are pretty implicitly-drawn conclusions.

 

Oh, also, one thing that actually WAS in the text was about Cyndande..Alivia (or was it Elza?) suspected Cyndane has a Ter'angreal at The Cleansning but could still tell she wasn't as strong as Lanfear and was pretty weak. Also, Messana tells us the exact same thing about Cyndane/Lanfear. Do you Remember what Messana said about it?

 

Lastly, I do not see how ANYONE could rationally doubt that Lanfear's Belt with all the moon deals is not a Ter'angreal deal.

 

Do YOU, Sir, really think that it is not?

 

 

Fish

[HighLordXanthus]

I certainly know nothing of a belt ter'angreal of Lanfears.  And sorry dude, but cyndane was never described as weak, just weaker.  For that, some of the confusion may be coming from BS.  If you go to the gathering storm spoiler page and read the Q&A faqs from the signing, they discuss this issue rather thoroughly.  I am assuming you have read tGS and will not be spoiled by what you might find there. 

 

But here is some of the little we actualy know from POV.  Cyndane is stronger then Graendal (who is still quite strong for a woman).  We know that from Graendals POV. 

"The girl was stronger in the One Power that she herself! Even in her own Age, that has been uncommon among men, and very rare indeed among women." Graendal about Cyndane (The Path of Daggers, Chapter 12)

We know Cyndane is not as strong as Lanfear was, and assumed it had to do with the 'finns.

"She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and Eelfinn had held her! That was impossible; no woman could be stronger." Cyndane about Alivia (Winter's Heart, Chapter 35)

 

Read the quote of my own former thread.  They are exact quotes from the books and noted so you can check them.  Cyndane is never mention as very weak, or even just plain weak.  The only mention I remember at all about Lanfears belt is in tGH, in  the first description when Rand first meets "Seline."  I do not ever recall any other reference that would have point to it being a ter'angreal.  Or any thread here on the forums that talk about it.  Obviously there must be a theory out there that claims such, (if not there is now right?) or something similar.  Give us quotes, or links to former discussions or anything that might support the theory.  You claim there is support out there for it.  Dig it out for us.

[JScott]

    That's the problem with these 'minor' point discussions.  They get hijacked by "someone" who starts talking about how someone else is wrong on a detail that had nothing to do with the thread topic.  *looks up at thread topic*

[HighLordXanthus]

Whoops . . . sorry about that.  Perhaps fish can start a new thread if he has a response.

[Calderis]

It's a moot point anyway. We know Cyndane isn't weak, just weaker, and the belt, if a ter'angreal, was never used, and would now have been destroyed going through the doorway. done and gone. doesn't matter.

 

Back to the three oaths please...

[Mr Ares]

(HighLordXanthus - thanks for the nice sentiments...) ... Anywaz...

 

Mr Ares...Thank you for your directness, and feedback; I honestly didn't take anything you said as personally insulting.

 

I think we do have to still agree to disagree on this one, though.

 

Who knows, maybe I stuggle with the strict definition of ''Known' or ''Implicit.''

 

Please see where I am coming from:

 

It has never been ''Factually Proven/Implicitly STATED'' in the text that Moridin is Ishamael...but we all know he is. For a long time, before it was acknlowledged in the text, we were all figuring out with great certainty that Mat Cauthon's Foxhead Medallion melted Weaves of the Power...Look at the ''Noal/Jain'' thing or...well, or any number of examples that we may not have had clearly explained in the text...but we still ''KNOW/KNEW'', you know?

 

Did you ever think (and he said this actually) that Mr Jordan didn't always want to have to hit his readers over the head with things to make it obvious or 'known.'

 

If you look at the examples I just gave, I think they are JUST LIKE the situatons with Messana, Moggy, Cyndane, Lanfear's Belt etc...No, we haven't been TOLD these things in the text, haven't been hit over the head with them, but I think we all feel like they are pretty implicitly-drawn conclusions.

 

Oh, also, one thing that actually WAS in the text was about Cyndande..Alivia (or was it Elza?) suspected Cyndane has a Ter'angreal at The Cleansning but could still tell she wasn't as strong as Lanfear and was pretty weak. Also, Messana tells us the exact same thing about Cyndane/Lanfear. Do you Remember what Messana said about it?

 

Lastly, I do not see how ANYONE could rationally doubt that Lanfear's Belt with all the moon deals is not a Ter'angreal deal.

 

Do YOU, Sir, really think that it is not?

 

 

Fish

We have evidence supporting Moridin being Ishamael, we didn't just decide he was for no reason. See here. We do for all the reborn Chosen. We do not for any of the things you suggest. Your comments on Cyndanes strength fly directly in the face of the evidence of the books, the rest is just unsupported. What is rational about your certainty that Lanfear's belt is a ter'angreal? What reason are we given to suspect it as being more than a belt? At the Cleansing, Cyndane suspected Alivia had an angreal. Nothing supports your placements of Moggy and Mesaana. Come on, provide some hints from the books, provide some quotes, provide something, anything to support your view.

[Vulgir]

Lanfears Belt has never, even been hinted at in the text as being  any item of the power. I have no idea where this is from. I have never seen it on the forums as even being suggested, so for you to state that its as commonly accepted as Morridin/Ishy is rediculous.

 

The only Ter'angreal belt even mentioned in the whole series is the one worn by Nynaeve.

 

I actually agree with you that Moggy is the weakest forsaken, though it is never actually stated, her actions as the spider, and her "stale mate" with Nynaeve in Tanchico while nynaeve was still growing in the power supports this, but the utter fodder that comes out in your thoughts makes me want to disagree with you.

 

Mr. Ares is 100% correct on this, most of what your saying is completely made up, and if it isnt all you have to do is take an textual example and support your arguement wich you havnt done yet, and instead have decided to blather on with speculation.

 

Support your statements with something other than, "everybody knows it bra"

 

[Aust]

On the topic of the 3 oaths, I have always wondered why they didn't use more wiggle room around the 3rd oath... surely there are ways to twist thought around whether one's life is in danger?

 

Edit - sorry I just noticed the topic is really pertaining to lying, not all the oaths, but at the same time I do wonder if the principle of bending the truth could be applied to the other oaths as well.

[Calderis]

On the topic of the 3 oaths, I have always wondered why they didn't use more wiggle room around the 3rd oath... surely there are ways to twist thought around whether one's life is in danger?

 

Edit - sorry I just noticed the topic is really pertaining to lying, not all the oaths, but at the same time I do wonder if the principle of bending the truth could be applied to the other oaths as well.

 

Edit. No TGS spoilers here.

[HighLordXanthus]

I always felt the third oath was the most restrictive.  It is obviously the longest and most descriptive, and is also the plainest worded.

[Talmanes]

It once again though comes down completely to point of view though. It depends on what it takes for each Aes Sedai to actully consider her's or herr warder's life in danger. Some it might take a lot, while others may not and only need a small threat to be concerned. The reason it is so restrictive though is that most Aes Sedai are very arrogant and always think they are in control and probably don't see things as a threat to their life unless it is something huge.

[Aust]

It once again though comes down completely to point of view though. It depends on what it takes for each Aes Sedai to actully consider her's or herr warder's life in danger. Some it might take a lot, while others may not and only need a small threat to be concerned. The reason it is so restrictive though is that most Aes Sedai are very arrogant and always think they are in control and probably don't see things as a threat to their life unless it is something huge.

 

Very nice way to put it! As I myself am a coward, it seems I would have no trouble with this oath ;)

[ROB_88]

I always felt the third oath was the most restrictive.  It is obviously the longest and most descriptive, and is also the plainest worded.

 

no, the most restrictive would be the one about "To make no weapon for one man to kill another."

 

there is no possible way to get around that one. the closest would be in Two Rivers when they enhanced the catapults to make them explosive but since that was against Trollocs it doesn't really count

[magnutz]

I always felt the third oath was the most restrictive.  It is obviously the longest and most descriptive, and is also the plainest worded.

 

no, the most restrictive would be the one about "To make no weapon for one man to kill another."

 

there is no possible way to get around that one. the closest would be in Two Rivers when they enhanced the catapults to make them explosive but since that was against Trollocs it doesn't really count

 

Quite lame oath as well. Ok, so don't make a weapon for a man. Make one for a woman. You could interpret "... no man" to include "woMAN" but you can choose not to. ;)

[Talmanes]

I always felt the third oath was the most restrictive.  It is obviously the longest and most descriptive, and is also the plainest worded.

 

no, the most restrictive would be the one about "To make no weapon for one man to kill another."

 

there is no possible way to get around that one. the closest would be in Two Rivers when they enhanced the catapults to make them explosive but since that was against Trollocs it doesn't really count

 

Quite lame oath as well. Ok, so don't make a weapon for a man. Make one for a woman. You could interpret "... no man" to include "woMAN" but you can choose not to. ;)

The problem with that though is that even if it is made for a women, it could still be used against a man or a man could use it. It once again though goes down again to the Aes Sedai's point of view on what qualifies as breaking the oath. I would agree that this oath does have the smallest amount of loopholes in it though, I mean unless you have an all woman army (excluding Maidens), making weapons for women wouldn't really help. The biggest problem with the three oaths in general is the fact that when it comes down to it they all rely on the opinion and point of view of each Aes Sedai.

 

[The Fisher King]

IMO, The Oath that has always been the EASIEST to get around is the one about ''Not Doing No Harm With Power As a Weapon Xcept In Battle or For My Warder or My Own Life.''

 

Remember that one that was with Mat that one time? - She was all like ''Oh, Gee, I Defintiely think I feel 'in danger' now, Wink Wink''

 

Fish

[magnutz]

"The Three Oaths" are just Randland politics. Nice words with plenty of air in them and no substance made to mollify kings queens and other high-uppers in need of mollifying. ;)

[The Fisher King]

Sounds pretty spot-on to me lol...

 

 

Fish