Never to make a weapon for one man to kill another...

[trakand_01]

... is the second oath.

But i see a problem with this. Elayne is going to re-create the 'angreal she discovers, which Aviendha reads. Please bear with me if she has already done so, I'm only just starting book 9.

 

But surely some of these 'angreal she would be making with full intention of the Green or other AS / other channelers / maybe even Rand and the Asha'man using them to fight at TG. Even making something to enable them to draw more power in order to defeat their enemies most likely goes against the oath. If she was to take the Oath, would she have to convince herself that they were for other purposes, in order to be able to make them?

 

Could this be connected to the reason why her talent has been so lacking through the histories; because the women who could potentially have created these angreal were AS, and knew that they could be used as weapons, or as aids in battle (increasing the efficiency of the 'human' weapons) thus making it impossible for them to create them?

 

Do you think it is likely that Elayne, Egwene and Nynaeve will EVER be able to take all 3 oaths? Do you think that the Oaths will change, that they will become impossible to maintain in the future, with what is guaranteed to come (TG, BA etc)?

 

Also, the other oaths are something along the lines of 'never to speak an untruth' and 'never to use the Power as a weapon except in defence of your own life, that of your Warder or another AS'.

 

Now, with at least one Warder and the ability to defend yourself with the Power, it has to be a pretty significant threat to enable you to meet the criteria for using the Power as a weapon, as we saw at Dumai's Wells when Alanna had to intentionally force the enemy to attack her first, before she could use the Power, against Perrin's orders.

 

The 'new' AS like Egwene, Elayne, Nynaeve, Faolain, Theodrin, Siuan, Leane etc will not have this problem; they dont have the oath upon them and can fight freely. The existing AS however, do.

 

Short of doing what Alanna did, how will they serve Rand at TG?

 

The Green Ajah is the Battle Ajah, their motto is 'stand ready'. Do they take an amended Oath that allows them to fight? What use is a battle ajah who can only protect themselves?

[el Nynaeve]

I'm not sure about this one. Maybe they are making them in the knowledge that when they are used, the third oath will come into play, 'never use the OP as weapon except in last defense of my life, Warder, another sister'? I don't really know, but it's a good question.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Short of doing what Alanna did, how will they serve Rand at TG?

 

The Green Ajah is the Battle Ajah, their motto is 'stand ready'. Do they take an amended Oath that allows them to fight? What use is a battle ajah who can only protect themselves?

 

Isn't there an exception made for Darkfriends and other Shadowy minions?

 

Aes Sedai don't hesitate to open up on Trollocs. There must have been times where they didn't feel that their life was in danger and nuked them anyway.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

... is the second oath.

But i see a problem with this. Elayne is going to re-create the 'angreal she discovers, which Aviendha reads. Please bear with me if she has already done so, I'm only just starting book 9.

 

But surely some of these 'angreal she would be making with full intention of the Green or other AS / other channelers / maybe even Rand and the Asha'man using them to fight at TG. Even making something to enable them to draw more power in order to defeat their enemies most likely goes against the oath. If she was to take the Oath, would she have to convince herself that they were for other purposes, in order to be able to make them?

UNQUOTE

 

Elayne hasnt taken the three oaths on the Oath Rod yet, hence her being able to do it. As for the thing about her making angreal going against the oath, you could say that about anything if you strecth it far enough. Her making an angreal, allowing someone to ose more of the power and POTENTIALLY using it as a weapon is like saying you cannot cook food for a warrior, because he may use the energy he got from the food to kill someone. An angreal is not a weapon. It may be used as one, but it isnt made specifically to kill

[trakand_01]

Thanks for your thoughts. I know Elayne hasnt taken the Oaths, I stated that later in my post (asked if you thought the 'new' AS would EVER be able to take them).

 

these thoughts all came to light when I read the passage where Pevara asked Zerah to do something that contradicted her Oaths; she instructed her to say that the Reds did NOT have anything to do with Logain and false dragons, but Zerah believed it. She couldnt say they didnt as she believed they did, and she choked, almost to death.

 

I wonder how many things in the books we have read that actually, contradicted oaths?

[Alexius]

Full text of the Three Oaths:

Under the Light and by my hope of salvation and rebirth, I swear to speak no word that is not true.

Under the Light and by my hope of salvation and rebirth, I swear to forge no weapon for one man to kill another.

Under the Light and by my hope of salvation and rebirth, I swear never to use the One Power as a weapon, save against Darkfriends or Shadowspawn, or in the last defence of my life, that of my Warder or that of another sister.

 

All these are subject to some useful Aes Sedai weaselling. The half-truths and omissions to get around the First are well-known. However, there are a lot of ways around the Second.

 

Firstly, the word "weapon". An angreal is not a weapon unless the Aes Sedai creating it intends it to be one.

Secondly, "for one man"- angreal that use saidar cannot be used by men, so do not come under the Oath. I assume they are the only kind female channelers can make.

Thirdly, "to kill another". If the Aes Sedai is satisfied that the weapon will not be used agianst men, she can make it- see the catapult-stones enchanted by Verin and Alanna to be used against the Trollocs. However, she must be certain of this- Verin refuses to enchant the stones before they are loaded into the catapults.

 

The Third Oath has an exemption for Darkfriends and Shadowspawn, so Aes Sedai can use the Power as a weapon at the Last Battle- and did in the Trolloc Wars. This exemption also applies to anyone the Aes Sedai thinks is a Darkfriend, even if they actually aren't. However, the Second Oath doesn't have the exemption- if there had been a Darkfriend among the Trollocs attacking the Two Rivers, Verin couldn't have enchanted the catapult ammo- unless she fired it herself!

[aevogt]

An Angreal would not be considered a weapon unless the you were to physically strike someone with it.  Since that is not it's intended purpose, creating one would not violate the second Oath. 

 

Let's say a third age AS figured out how to remake the redstone doorway.  Then dropped it from a great height onto someone's head.  Would the redstone doorway be considered a weapon?  No, because that was not it's intended purpose.

 

An angreal's intended purpose if to magnify the amount of power someone can channel.  No kill or harm another person.  There is no conflict between the creation of an angreal and the second oath.

 

 

 

[aussie_ashaman123]

i think it was talking bout things like power-wrought weapons.

 

i wonder if the BT will follow the same guidelines? power-wrought weapons would bring in a hell of a lot of money, and finding a way to create power-wrought armor :D

[Guest Dreadlord]

I dooubt the Black Tower will make that sort of progress in the next book even if it is as big as it needs to be. Nobody in the Black Tower has made any discoveries with regard to making items, nobody has shown the Talent (although Im sure it uses Earth as the main weave unless Im mistaken? if thats true then maybe as men are stronger in Earth and Fire usually) but the Black Tower has enough to keep itself busy from now up until Tarmon Gaidon. With so many potential fights about to start within the Black Tower any power wrought items/cuendillar items would be too likely to go missing for  someone to take the time to make them I think

[Southwick]

We don't know how much true progress that the Black Tower has made. We only know that it has a mass of Ashaman in it.  We havn't been told who has what talents and who doesn't have what talents.  For all we know, the Black Tower could have created another Callandor.  Besides Callandor was made by women Aes Sedai just before the breaking.  As far as I am aware, angreal can be made by any person who can channel and knows how to make them for and other person who can channel, male or female.

[DemandredFO]

The Black Tower is making a power-wrought wall so I'd assume that swords and stuff aren't that much more difficult.

[Farslayer]

I'm a bit confused about you Trakand, I'm still trying to figure out what you have read or not based on what you've said on these forums for a while. This post says you've only read up to book 9, which I think I've seen you say before, but a day later you said you're reading KoD. Fast reading? rereads? LIES!?

;P

[aevogt]

Personally, I think that an angreal can only be made by a member of the opposite sex.  A man can make an angreal for a woman and vice versa.  This is to a certain extent backed up by events.

 

After the breaking, there were no sane men to pass down the manufacturing process for female angreal and there were certainly no women willing to make a male angreal.  It makes a certain amount of sense if you look at it like healing severing.  A male must heal a female. 

 

Ter Angreal can be used by men or women so there isn't a differentiation in the manufacture.

 

It doesn't have a lot to do with the thread but Im curious as to what they're up to in the BT.  One would think that for Taim, playing the very dangerous game he's playing, priority #1 would be to find an angreal, unless he has the Fat LIttle Man Rand lost after Dumais Wells.  Eventually he's going to rouse the Dragon and better men than he have done that to their dismay. 

 

 

 

[Darth_Andrea]

One easy way around it is to take it literaly. And make weapons for Women, simple easy and it dosen't techinacly violate the oath.

 

 

 

[glow=green,1,500]Darth_Andrea[/glow]             

[aussie_ashaman123]

Personally, I think that an angreal can only be made by a member of the opposite sex.  A man can make an angreal for a woman and vice versa.  This is to a certain extent backed up by events.

 

After the breaking, there were no sane men to pass down the manufacturing process for female angreal and there were certainly no women willing to make a male angreal.  It makes a certain amount of sense if you look at it like healing severing.  A male must heal a female. 

 

Ter Angreal can be used by men or women so there isn't a differentiation in the manufacture.

 

It doesn't have a lot to do with the thread but Im curious as to what they're up to in the BT.  One would think that for Taim, playing the very dangerous game he's playing, priority #1 would be to find an angreal, unless he has the Fat LIttle Man Rand lost after Dumais Wells.  Eventually he's going to rouse the Dragon and better men than he have done that to their dismay. 

 

 

 

 

The jewellery Nynaeve wears and the hair ornaments Cadsuane uses both include angreal, and both were made during the breaking.

[wvlr]

The jewellery Nynaeve wears and the hair ornaments Cadsuane uses both include angreal, and both were made during the breaking.

That is all well and good but not all men went insane at the same time and many even sought shelter in the Steadings.    Coming out later in the Breaking and then eventually going insane in their own due time.    So there were men available and sane that could have been drafted into helping to make those items.  There was even the Male Adam available to help "Control" one man that had already gone insane.

 

I agree with aevogt.    I have thought that this was a significant probability for a long time.    Back when Elayene was trying to make the Dream Rings, I thought that part of the reason that she was not completely successful was because she was just using one side of the source.    We will not know for sure until RJ/BS tells us but I think that the probability is there.

[aussie_ashaman123]

One easy way around it is to take it literaly. And make weapons for Women, simple easy and it dosen't techinacly violate the oath.

 

 

 

[glow=green,1,500]Darth_Andrea[/glow]             

 

or do what the romans did, set pigs on fire and run them at the enemy (hehehe, aes sedai exploding pigs  ;D)

[Dbob]

Seems to me that the Tower and its denizens start subverting oath 1 almost as soon as they start calling themselves Aes Sedai, so I can't see any reason why they couldn't find a way to subvert oath number 2. Number 3 isn't a problem.

 

Of course the smart thing to do would be to just chuck the oaths altogether. There's absolutely no one who thinks they’re honest or incapable of knocking people off, one way or another.

[Southwick]

Egwene has FEMALE Aes Sedai MAKING ANGREAL THAT THEY CAN USE.  Creating Angreal does not nessesarily mean they have to have men.  To create certain Angreal they may require both sides of the power, but men aren't absolutely nessesary all the time.

[Naudran Grimnir]

Egwene has FEMALE Aes Sedai MAKING ANGREAL THAT THEY CAN USE.  ...

 

Where does that happen? The only Aes Sedai capable of making anything at the moment is Elayne. Are you maybe talking about Ewgene having Aes Sedia making cuendillar? The cuendillar is sold for money though.

[Guest Dreadlord]

I wonder if Rand will reseal the Bore and get Egwene to make new seals? I hope not though, I want a more permanent ending

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Egwene has FEMALE Aes Sedai MAKING ANGREAL THAT THEY CAN USE.  ...

 

Where does that happen? The only Aes Sedai capable of making anything at the moment is Elayne. Are you maybe talking about Ewgene having Aes Sedia making cuendillar? The cuendillar is sold for money though.

 

I can't remember that either. It's only Elayne who can make Ter'angreal at the moment unless I've missed something.

 

Besides, she's making Ter'angreal, not angreal. Unless I've got it totally wrong.

[balefireruinssteaks]

Egwene can turn something into cuendillar.

 

Elayne can create ter'angreal.

 

Elayne herself says she can't make angreal because she doesn't have any to study, so at this point no one is making new angreal.

 

Angreal, Sa'angreal and Ter'angreal were all made by Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends, so I imagine that apart from the ones made after the Breaking (ter'angreal used to detect a man channeling, or a male channeler for instance, or ter'angreal designed to cut weaves of saidin) there are still those angreal, sa'angreal and ter'angreal that exist pre-Breaking.  (the ter'angreal that holds 1000s of books for example, and the one that's activated by singing, plus the helmet that controls machines)

 

Also I think the person creating the A,S'A, or T'A (if they have indeed taken the Three Oaths) are restricted only by motivation.  Remember that when Siuane is initially taking Egwene and Nyneave through novice exercises, she creates a sword out of Air.  A sword is a weapon, but she created it for lecturing purposes not to kill anyone and so she was able to do it without the Oaths restricting her.

[xander]

They can use the OP freely in order to fight shadowspan.  We've seen Moraine do this on many occasions and without hesitation.  They can't flame drakfriends for just beign darkfriends.  There has to be a threat from them first.

[aevogt]

Not sure I agree there Xander.  The third oath reads  "

 

Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Darkfriends or Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme of defending your own life, that of your Warder, or that of another sister.  "

 

Darkfriends or Shadowspawn.  Moraine could at her discretion, have flamed Padan Fain whenever she wanted.  It's just that in the story, most of the DF's captured by Aes Sedai (those bound by the Three Oaths in any case) are Black Ajah and far more valuable alive as a source of information.