Verin Mathwin

[RAND AL THOR]

So far, there has only been one piece of evidence that ter'angreal can be created and used in T'A'R.

 

This gives way to frightening possibilities. If angreal/ter'angreal/sa'angreal can be dreamed up and used.........o-m-g.

 

But wouldn't the Forsaken (Who know so much about T'A'R) have already made use of this if it were possible?

[Mysterious]

I don't know that the Forsaken even think it is possible to create angreal/ter'angreal/sa'angreal. But then again the Forsaken think a lot of things are not possible but have been proved otherwise:

 

1. Warder Bond

 

2. Healing Stilling

 

3. Cleansing Saidin

 

From Nyneave's action I think it is most definately possible to create various angreal/ter'angreal/sa'angreal.

 

 

 

 

Mysterious

[RAND AL THOR]

Several of the Forsaken are masters of TAR and know quite a lot about it. eg, Rhavin demonstrates his knowledge when he fights with Rand, Moghedian torn Birgitte out of TAR and they all hold conversations and meetings in TAR (at least twice). The Warder bond is new to them and something that would not have been necessary in AOL. Healing Stilling is a shock for them, true. And they didn't even dream of Cleansing saidin. But remember that Rand himself would not have known how to do it without help from the Finns. So they are on equal footing there.

[Luckers]

Do we have any evidence you can do something like that in Tel'Aran'Rhiod? It doesn't seem like something that would be possible. Otherwise, why wouldn't Egwene have thought of something like that and taken her Oaths that way?

 

Yes, RJ stated that it was possible. I've always been confused by this, because if that was possible than why didn't the criminal Aes Sedai from the Age of Legends do it--access to TAR was easily done in such times. Maybe the reason the Agelessness was put in... nevertheless it can be done.

 

As for why Egwene didn't think of it, it simply didn't occur to her.

 

And we don't know it is possible to dream up angreal or sa'angreal--RJ has only commented on the oath rod.

[Mysterious]

The Oath Rod is a ter'angreal. So logically going forward we can say that any ter'angreal can be made. Since the making of ter'angreal/angreal/sa'angreal are nearly exactly the same, except of the purpose of the object, we can conclude that angreal and sa'angreal can be made as well.

 

 

 

 

Mysterious

 

 

Edit: Grammar mistake

[RAND AL THOR]

Since the making of ter'angreal/angreal/sa'angreal nearly exactly the same, except of the purpose of the object, we can conclude that angreal and sa'angreal can be made as well.

 

 

I very much doubt that the making of all 3 is as similar as that. There must be significant differences or I think Elayne would be selling angreal by now-considering how badly sisters want it.

[Luckers]

Indeed, we know as fact that angreal and sa'angreal are not made by the same method as ter'angreal, and furthermore are not made by the same method as each other.

 

 

[Mysterious]

Sorry! My bad...

 

I assumed that they were pretty similar when Elayne was examining them and that she stated as such.

[Luckers]

W've never actually seen Elayne examine a angreal--only that she says that now she has one maybe she can.

[benr]

Several of the Forsaken are masters of TAR and know quite a lot about it. eg, Rhavin demonstrates his knowledge when he fights with Rand, Moghedian torn Birgitte out of TAR and they all hold conversations and meetings in TAR (at least twice). The Warder bond is new to them and something that would not have been necessary in AOL. Healing Stilling is a shock for them, true. And they didn't even dream of Cleansing saidin. But remember that Rand himself would not have known how to do it without help from the Finns. So they are on equal footing there.

 

Moggy certainly knows now that it is possible to dream up ter'angreal in TAR.  Knowing her, she probably hasn't shared that information, but has certainly filed it away.  However, it seems likely that all of the Forsaken that knew Moggy was held would have been able to at least suspect how it was done.  And Elayne and Egwene know, too.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Yes, the Forsaken are supposed to be masters of T'a'R.  Especially Moggy.

 

What puzzles me is that if that is true, why did Moggy allow herself to be captured?  She should have known that the a'dam was only an illusion that Nynaeve was projecting and nullified it.  Objects ( and other people ) created in T'a'R only have the power your belief gives them.

 

Seems to be another instance where the 'children' of the Third Age know more than the supposed 'Masters' from the AoL.

[RAND AL THOR]

Interesting idea Bob. If Nynaeve could force the collar on Moggy, then Moggy could surely get it off her in TAR. I mean, people can even change what another people is wearing in TAR!

 

Might be a slip by RJ.

 

Even when Rhavin turned the very air around Rand to water-Rand was able to reverse it.

 

The only possible explanation may be that it was a power related object. Since Moggy could not immediately do anything that Nynaeve did not want she may not have been able to un-imagine the collar.  8)

[D24g0n]

However, it seems likely that all of the Forsaken that knew Moggy was held would have been able to at least suspect how it was done.  And Elayne and Egwene know, too.

Not necessarily, do all of the forsaken, at this point in the books, even know about a'dam?  Even if they did, until Aran'gar(sp?) released her, there was no reason to suspect that she was even captured.  Moggy is known for sneaking around in the shadows and disappearing from view and striking at the most opportune time.

 

What puzzles me is that if that is true, why did Moggy allow herself to be captured?  She should have known that the a'dam was only an illusion that Nynaeve was projecting and nullified it.  Objects ( and other people ) created in T'a'R only have the power your belief gives them.

I never thought of that...  I guess she was so frightened that she couldn't control the source anymore, that it completely slipped her mind.  I think it hit her so hard because she does EVERYTHING with the one power.  In one of the books she remarks on how stupid it is to not use the one power for everything(this is not what she says, but how i saw it being thought of).  So I can kind of see it as losing your hands, nothing else seems to matter at that moment besides getting them back.

[benr]

However, it seems likely that all of the Forsaken that knew Moggy was held would have been able to at least suspect how it was done.  And Elayne and Egwene know, too.

Not necessarily, do all of the forsaken, at this point in the books, even know about a'dam?  Even if they did, until Aran'gar(sp?) released her, there was no reason to suspect that she was even captured.  Moggy is known for sneaking around in the shadows and disappearing from view and striking at the most opportune time.

 

 

In order for Halima to release her, he had to know enough about the a'dam to undo it; I can't see him/her keeping this info to himself.  Moggy had missed meetings, etc. - some suspected she was dead, although she was known for her disappearances.  Moridin would know the circumstances, too - no, most must have learned of it.  It would seem a pretty good idea to try and figure out HOW one of them was held by a "so-called" AS.

[Almearafan]

also someone asked if she did bend her oaths somehow why not just break them all? well that would remove her ageless look and verin doesn't strike me as the kind to want to stand out!questions would be asked...no?

 

I think that it's still possible that Verin never changed her original Aes Sedai oaths at all, and here's why.  She has been a Brown for a very long time now.  In her time as a brown she has had the chance to study and learn a great many things both within the tower and outside it as well. 

 

The oaths are able to be gotten around quite easily, as long as the perception of the Aes Sedai is one that makes her believe that what she is doing/saying, falls within the bounds of the oaths. 

 

With all the knowledge she has gained, is it possible that everything we've seen her do and say, she truly considers to be within the bounds of the oaths?  If she's convinced herself, that all of her actions are within the bounds of the oaths, then nothing would stop her from doing things that appear to us to be outside of them.  We don't yet know what the true extent of Verin's knowledge is yet.  I do think we'll be finding out in AMoL though, and I'm VERY much looking forward to it.

[ThebigeyeAm]

yes almearafan im not convinced she has removed any oaths that post was just speculation i very open minded about the whole verin subject.

[Elgee]

Do we have any evidence you can do something like that in Tel'Aran'Rhiod? It doesn't seem like something that would be possible. Otherwise, why wouldn't Egwene have thought of something like that and taken her Oaths that way?

 

The adam that Nynaeve created in the Dreamworld only held Moggie there - they had to make a real one to hold her in the real world, therefore one can assume that any oaths taken on an oath rod there would also only hold in the Dreamworld.

 

[Mr Ares]

now i no this will cause some trouble but i thi nk she can channel in areas she shouldnt b able to maybe through a well if she has one or some other way.remember that she did something in that steadding i think she delved that fella, i cant remember the exact details.

It's not necessary for her to have a well, nor for her to have Delved the Ogier in question. Someone missing a soul feels much colder than someone with, and this is apparent even without the Power - it requires only the magic of being able to touch someone:

"'You slept like a man already dead. [Annoura] said you almost felt like someone who had lost his soul, cold no matter how many blankets were piled on you. I felt it, as well, when I touched you'" [WH: 5, Flags, 145].

Either what I said, or Berelain can channel! (Cue Berlain can channel theories.)

[Bob T Dwarf]

The adam that Nynaeve created in the Dreamworld only held Moggie there - they had to make a real one to hold her in the real world, therefore one can assume that any oaths taken on an oath rod there would also only hold in the Dreamworld.

 

Probably not.  Jordan stated that things that happen to the body in T'a'R carry over to the real body in the waking world.  And we see that with the wounds Rand suffers while fighting Rahvin in T'a'R.  He still had those upon returning to the waking world.  From the descriptions we have of the effects of an Oath Rod, there are several physical effects as the Oath 'sinks in' and becomes 'bone deep.'

 

My guess would be that anyone believing in the reality of the Rod and its effects and taking an oath on a T'a'R Oath Rod would find the oath binding upon returning to the waking world.

[Elgee]

So something that affects you after it is no longer around (ie the oath rod) would still have that effect in the real world, but if it's something like the adam, the effect would no longer hold? Makes sense.

[D24g0n]

In order for the a'dam to work, it must be physically around the person's neck.  If Nyneave had left T'A'R, since she was keeping the a'dam there with her thoughts, it would have disappeared and Moggy would have been free.  However, you do not need to be holding the oath rod at all times for it to work.  So I would assume the effects of the oath rod would stick in the real world, like Bob said.

[ThebigeyeAm]

well sorry guys but where im from we dont get people walking arround with no souls! i hope these topics get tied up in next book.

 

 

 

                  and she can channel where she wants!you arnt the boss of her

[Mr Ares]

well sorry guys but where im from we dont get people walking arround with no souls!

Are you sure? Also, where I'm from we don't get people wandering around talking to wolves in their heads. Or Ogier.

[Snowy Dawn]

I suspect Verin Mathwin is rather older than 120, and so I would question the line of reasoning that leads to that age. Aes Sedai not bound (by a binder, such as the oath rod) live to be 400 to 600; being bound cuts that in half, so Aes Sedai who have taken the oaths would normally live to be 200 to 300. It is possible that longevity goes with strength in the power, of course, but Verin is relatively strong, if we are to believe the passage in <i>Lord of Chaos</i> (and she is definitely strong if she can make a gateway unaided, as it would appear she can). Maybe I'm just misreading this, but I had the impression that Verin was closer to Cadsuane in age, and the latter is nearly 300. An age of 120 years would just be middle age for Aes Sedai, and one's general impression of Verin is that she is older than that. So I am puzzled. [Romanda is well over 200, and I suspect that Lelaine is 200 or thereabouts.] Recall that Sitters are usually well over 100, and anything under 100 is considered too young, as is clear from the puzzle about the replacement sitters that intrigues both Siuan and Seaine Herimon.

[Bob T Dwarf]

In light of Snowy Dawn's point - something I stumbled across from Jordan's interviews:

 

In The Great Hunt it was mentioned that a Aes Sedai with gray hair was very old indeed. (Editor’s Note: Verin) How old does an Aes Sedai typically have to be for her hair to start turning gray?



It varies. But usually they would expect to have grey hair by oh, 200 years of age. Some grey hair at least. Just like anyone else, some have grey hair at 150, or even 100, but that would be considered prematurely grey for an Aes Sedai.