Some confirmation of something I've thought for a while now.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Ahem.

 

In various discussions, there has been some ... uncertainty ... as to how much inverting/reversing weaves and concealing the ability to channel actually hid someone while she was actively channeling.

 

Allow me to quote Melare Sedai, describing what she saw and felt while Leane was turning the Southharbor chain into cuendillar.  This can be found in KoD, prologue (page 91 in my hardback edition)

 

She shook her head with a puzzled expression.  "There was something strange, though.  More than strange.  We couldn't find the wilder, at first.  We couldn't feel her channeling.  There was no glow around her, and we couldn't see her weaves.  The chain just started turning white.  If Arebis's Warder hadn't spotted the boat, she might have finished and gotten away."

 

Emphasis mine.

 

So, when a woman is concealing her ability, and reversing her weaves, she cannot be detected at all.  Not only is the glow of saidar not present, but other channelers cannot even feel that she is channeling.

 

That means that Verin did not sense Graendal channeling, at the Cleansing, she was simply smart enough to intuit what Graendal's response would be.  This fact also makes Lanfear's claims about being able to kill pretty much the entire Tower at will much more credible.  Finally, the implications for the  extensive "Memo for Moridin" discussion are pretty significant.

 

Anyway, its always nice for me when it turns out I'm not an idiot after all.

 

;D  Let the mud throwing and rationalizing begin.

[rd2000]

I understand how it has been puzzling. I think RJ might have slipped up on the issue though.

Verin does'nt see the weaves that Graendal is weaving, yet Verin knows that Graendal is "immensely strong". She has to be sensing something because she hasn't even started defending herself yet.

[Tyrell]

She knew how strong Graendal was on account of her throwing a shield at her through her circle + angreal and it bouncing right off.

[DuDZiK]

It might have been a ter'angreal, perhaps Cadsuane distributed some to each of the parties since they were hunting any attackers while Cadsuane was staying by Rand and holding a shield over him.

 

At the same time, perhaps the Forsaken had not inverted their weaves. Considering how often they were found by the parties, I think they just did not assume anyone of any strength would be there and that they could simply waltz up to Rand and kill him. Modesty was never any of their strong points.

 

At any rate, because they were found out so often I find it likely that either each party had a ter'angreal or none of them were hiding their ability to channel.

[aevogt]

No, I checked, RAW's right on this one.  Verin sensed nothing of Graendal nor was any mention made that she had a device that would do so. 

 

She saw a woman walking towards her in a color shifting dress, in the middle of the woods, outside the abandoned city of Shadar Logoth, on the day The Dragon reborn is coincidentally intending to cleanse the Taint from Saidin.

 

She knew who and where her allies were that day.

 

Who else would it be but an enemy? 

 

 

 

[Luckers]

Actually the confusion about Graendal stemmed from the sentence. "The golden haired woman spun around and began channeling."

 

Verin states a specific moment, yet there were no physical or visual indication that would betray Graendal starting at that moment. This combined with Cyndane's attempt to make her reversed weave small so that it wouldn't be detected is the basis of the suggestion that reversing your weaving doesn't hide the sensation of active channeling, merely the web itself.

 

Robert, Leane wasn't reversing, she was using a pre-woven inverted weave, much like what Elayne did with the black sisters in Caemlyn. The sensation of active channeling would not be present for the Aes Sedai on the wall anyway.

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Robert, Leane wasn't reversing, she was using a pre-woven inverted weave, much like what Elayne did with the black sisters in Caemlyn. The sensation of active channeling would not be present for the Aes Sedai on the wall anyway.

 

Um, no, despite what Egwene thinks to herself, Leane could have prepared and inverted the weaves that hid her ability, but she would have had to have been reversing the active weave used to change the chain into cuendillar.

 

But I did sort of call it with "let the rationalizations begin" didn't I?  ;)

 

You can pre-weave a shield, and several other things (such as Elayne used in Caemlyn), but every description we have of changing iron into cuendillar requires active channeling at the object in question.  Leane would have had to have been in sight of the chain to start, and on a dark night, she would have had to be pretty close.

 

Sorry, thats not a weave she could have prepared and inverted before taking the trip out.

 

Your confusion about the Graendal situation did indeed spring from that sentence.  You assume that when Verin's POV says that the golden haired woman "began channeling", that that has to mean that Verin felt her channeling.  What I contended at the time, and contend even more strongly now, was that Verin simply deduced what she was doing very, very quickly.  Thats no more or less unlikely than Verin being able to defend herself from weaves that she cannot see or feel.  That entire sequence is a tribute to the sharpness of Verin's mind ... and having the most powerful ta'veren in the world on your side.

[elmis]

I don't have any of the books in front of me, but as far as I can remember, the weave to make cuendillar is just something you put on a iron object, and it pretty much does the work itself. No active channeling required other than holding on to the source.

 

That being said I behind RAW in the inverted/reversing of the discussion. As far as the Verin POV quote, I simply think that's a mix of narrator and POV on RJ's part.

[Luckers]

Robert, the Light don't actually know how to reverse their weaves.

 

And my confusion stems from nothing. My contention is that Verin specifically senses an exact moment when Graendal begins channeling. There is nothing remotely confused about it. Indeed, I feel a remarkable clarity about the whole issue.

[wvlr]

Robert, the Light don't actually know how to reverse their weaves.

 

And my confusion stems from nothing. My contention is that Verin specifically senses an exact moment when Graendal begins channeling. There is nothing remotely confused about it. Indeed, I feel a remarkable clarity about the whole issue.

 

Graendal was startled by Verin and might not have had the foresight of Lanfear.  Verin may have seen Graendal begins channeling because Gaendal could have been creating a visable fireball or some such.  If I was in a similar circumstance and saw a fireball forming in front of the woman - I would immediately conclude that Graendal was obviously channeling.

 

She had already "deduced" that a woman in such clothes and in that place and time must be a Forsaken.  So depending on what Graendal "wove" the fact that she was channeling would have been an instant logical conclusion.

[Guest cw]

I don't have any of the books in front of me, but as far as I can remember, the weave to make cuendillar is just something you put on a iron object, and it pretty much does the work itself. No active channeling required other than holding on to the source.

 

That being said I behind RAW in the inverted/reversing of the discussion. As far as the Verin POV quote, I simply think that's a mix of narrator and POV on RJ's part.

 

Active channelling is required to make cuendillar.  You stop channelling into the object, the transformation stops.  We are told this when the Salidar Aes Sedai are making cuendillar.  Whenever they don't get a piece finished, it is left for someone else to continue working on it.

 

Sharina slapping her hands together loudly in the back of the tent jerked everyone's head that way.  Kairen and Ashmanaille turned, too, the Blue even letting her weaves go so the goblet bounced on the tabletop with a metallic clatter.  It was a sign of boredom.  The process could be started over, though finding the precise point was ver hard, and some sisters took every opportunity to do anything else during the hour they had to spend in the tent each day.  An hour or until they completed one item start to finish, whichever came first.  That was supposed to push them to try harder at increasing their skill, but few had progresesed very far.

 

...

 

Body -- Bodewhin -- moved with efficient alacrity, releasing saidar and placing her half-made cuendillar bracelet in one of the chests along the wall for someone else to finish...

Crossroads of Twilight Chapter 17, Secrets pages 428 - 429.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Active channelling is required to make cuendillar.

 

It is indeed, and thanks.  Maybe now that someone other than myself has pointed it out, it'll be more believable.

 

We are given the procedure for creating cuendillar in much greater detail than most other weaves.  This is because it is a fairly complex process.  It requires creating a field of Earth, Fire, and Air around the object in question, followed by actively channeling a weave of Earth and Fire through the field to touch the object.  The transformation only continues as long as the channeling continues.

 

Leane could not have woven either the field around the chain, or the weave penetrating the chain, from the bank of the river.  If she could have, there would have been no need to row out there.  Likewise, these weaves are not something that can be woven in one place, tied off, then "carried" to the object in question.

 

Just because the word "reverse" was not used by Egwene to describe what Leane did does not mean that its not what she did.  Many channeling terms are used with imprecision and variation of meaning.  "Spinning a web and knotting it" vs "Weaving a weave and tying it off".  Just because Lanfear (OK, Cyndane) thinks of concealing her flows while she is channeling them as "reversing" doesn't mean that Egwene can't think of the same thing as "inverting".  Terminology in the Age of Legends did not distinguish between "stilling" and "gentling" and "being burned out".  It was all "severing".  By the same token, Egwene may use the term "inverting" to cover what the Age of Legends channelers differentiated into "inverting" and  "reversing".

 

The ultimate evidence here is the event itself.  The description of what Leane did matches the description of what we, the readers, know as "reversing her weaves".

 

Luckers, you claim categorically that "the Light don't actually know how to reverse their weaves."  Can you offer some evidence for that claim?  Other than the fact that we haven't seen one of them use the word "reverse" in that fashion?  We never got a list of all the things that Moghedien showed Elayne and Nynaeve, or the things she showed Egwene after the other girls had gone to Ebou Dar.

[aevogt]

Verin watches her shield rebound from nothing she can see in the passage before Graendal starts channeling.  That would make it certain that she knew she was facing a channeler.  Then Graendal starts channeling and nearly kills her.

[Luckers]

Graendal was startled by Verin and might not have had the foresight of Lanfear.  Verin may have seen Graendal begins channeling because Gaendal could have been creating a visable fireball or some such.  If I was in a similar circumstance and saw a fireball forming in front of the woman - I would immediately conclude that Graendal was obviously channeling.

 

Except that there is no stated visible effect.

 

Don't get me wrong, my acerberity in that comment came from Robert addressing 'my confusion'. I do see the possibility you raise.

 

She had already "deduced" that a woman in such clothes and in that place and time must be a Forsaken.  So depending on what Graendal "wove" the fact that she was channeling would have been an instant logical conclusion.

 

That, however, is a massive reach. Verin specifically states that the woman spun and began channeling. Not that she spun and a fireball formed as she began channeling. The sentence specifically cites the incidence at the moment she began to channel, there is not evidence of a the manifestation of that weave--so its very very far from being an 'instant logical conclusion'.

 

Active channelling is required to make cuendillar.  You stop channelling into the object, the transformation stops.  We are told this when the Salidar Aes Sedai are making cuendillar.  Whenever they don't get a piece finished, it is left for someone else to continue working on it.

 

Actually, what we are told is that if you cut off the weave the transformation stops. The weave, once formed, only needs to be maintained, which from Elayne we know does not cause the sensation of active channeling.

 

We are given the procedure for creating cuendillar in much greater detail than most other weaves.  This is because it is a fairly complex process.  It requires creating a field of Earth, Fire, and Air around the object in question, followed by actively channeling a weave of Earth and Fire through the field to touch the object.  The transformation only continues as long as the channeling continues.

 

But those weaves, both the field and the weave that passes through them, remain static--which we know as fact thanks to that remarkably detailed description you mentioned--indeed, it is specifically stated how the weave is not altered once woven in Crossroads of Twilight.

 

"There is remarkably little skill involved Mother. All you need to do is set the weave and wait." [CoT 433 - Secrets]

 

There is no alteration of the web, no new weaves, and thus no sensation of active channeling. The webs are simply maintained and we know that that doesn't cause that sensation--Elayne maintains inverted shields--indeed even manipulates them--but lacking an alteration to the web there is no sensation of active channeling. That is much how Leane would have done it, the two webs prewoven simply manipulated into interactions (much like Elayne laying the shield) causing the transformation--but not any active channeling, just manipulating of the prewoven (set) weave.

 

 

Leane could not have woven either the field around the chain, or the weave penetrating the chain, from the bank of the river.  If she could have, there would have been no need to row out there.  Likewise, these weaves are not something that can be woven in one place, tied off, then "carried" to the object in question.

 

Again, you assumed that awfully quickly, but i don't think you actually looked at the nature of the weave. Two seperate webs, set, and then moved to interact. After that moment there is no alteration or addition. It can be inverted.

 

Luckers, you claim categorically that "the Light don't actually know how to reverse their weaves."  Can you offer some evidence for that claim?  Other than the fact that we haven't seen one of them use the word "reverse" in that fashion?  We never got a list of all the things that Moghedien showed Elayne and Nynaeve, or the things she showed Egwene after the other girls had gone to Ebou Dar.

 

Ok, fair enough, we don't have catagoric evidence. I recalled a comment that i cannot find, so I'll drop that. But what we do have is the fact that its never used, never suggested, never commented on--even when the girls are specifically talking about inversion and explaining it to Egwene.  The Forsaken one and all clearly assume that the Light don't know how to use it, and their success implies the truth of that belief.

 

I know you thought you had some final proof, but mate this weave as described could easily have been inverted, hence as any form of proof about the sensing of active channeling in reversion it become void. I'm sorry.

 

Verin watches her shield rebound from nothing she can see in the passage before Graendal starts channeling.  That would make it certain that she knew she was facing a channeler.  Then Graendal starts channeling and nearly kills her.

 

I'm afraid I don't understand what you are trying to suggest... that all happened, its true, but it has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

[aevogt]

Verin doesn't "sense" anything Graendal does, only the effects. 

 

the passage:

 

Using the full strength of her circle, she wove her sheild, and watched aghast as it rebounded.  The woman was already embracing Saidar, though no light shone around her, and she was immensely strong.

Then she had no time for though of anything as the golden-haired woman spun around and began channeling

 

She knows the woman can channel and was embracing saidar because her shield rebounds.  If neither of those thinbgs were true, her shield would have worked, hence she deduces the woman can channel.

 

She "states" the 'woman began channeling' because at that point, she was "fighting off an attack on her life" and it would have been pretty obvious as whatever Graendal used that killed Kumira started hitting Verin's circle.

 

[elmis]

Using the full strength of her circle' date=' she wove her sheild, and watched aghast as it rebounded. The woman was already embracing Saidar, though no light shone around her, and she was immensely strong. [b']Then she had no time for though of anything as the golden-haired woman spun around and began channeling[/b]

 

For orders sake the rest of the paragraph goes like this:

 

Verin could not see the weaves' date=' but she knew when she was fighting off an attack on her life, and she had come too far to die here.[/quote']

 

As I've said earlier, the bold text is clearly in the narrative, and not Verin's POV, or even her thoughts. No proof of Verin feeling any channeling in that instance. I guess you could say that the continuation of the paragraph mixes the narrative with her POV thoughts again with the words on the end.

 

Then we have the other clues that supports the theory that you don't see, feel, sense (ect), anything when someone is channeling reversed. I'll list them here (there are probably more, if we dig, but I don't have the time for that right now):

 

 

1. Swigaros find:

 

This is taken from A Crown of Swords, prologue.

The cloak of shadow and light must be woven with the One Power, but Alvarin could see no weave. She had felt the strenght of Lanfear and Graendal, had known from the first instance how much stronger in the power they were than she, but in Mesaana she sensed.. nothing. As if the woman could not channel at all.

 

Mesaana reversed Travelled into the room, masking her ability to channel and using illusion. Alvarin feels nothing, and is baffled. There is a case for Mesaana using the True Power here, but I don't really see that at all. They all know how dangerous is it, and I don't think they would use it on something so trivial.

 

 

2. wvlr's find:

 

Knife of Daggers, I guess you all know the chapter. :)

"One of them is channeling,"...Ny..."I can't see anything, so she's masked her ability and inverted the weave---and I wonder how the Seanchan learned that!---but she's channeling.  Only one; there isn't enough for it to be two."  Her ter'angreal could not tell whether it was sadin or saidar being channeled, but it was unlikely to be a man.

 

This is a bit weaker, because Semirhage could just be Masking her ability, and have weaved a static Mask of Mirrors. No real indication that she's actively channeling any reversed weaves.

 

 

3. With the Choedan Kal (Hardcover p. 643)

 

The web had been reversed, for caution's sake, but so had the first, and he had been a soldier. Still running, he heard the explosions he expected, and knew they were racing toward where his gateway had been as surely as they had raced straight toward him among the ruins. [...] So. Unless someone in this accursed Age had discovered yet another unknown ability, al'Thor must have acquired a device, a ter'angreal that could detect a man channeling.

 

Demandred is using reversed weaves to get closer to the battle undetected, as he knows there is no way to sense reversed channeling. Except Cadsuane got a little something that will tell her where a man is channeling. You can fool a persons senses with reversing, but apparently not detection ter'angreals.

 

 

4. With the Choedan Kal (Hardcover p. 648-649)

 

Cyndane prepared a small present for her, a reversed web she would not even see [physically see the fireball] until it was too late. [...] Just at it reached the woman, almost close enough to singe her garments, the web of Fire unraveled. [...] Then the woman struck back at her

 

Cyndane want to take out Alivia quick and fast, without detection. She does not know that Alivia has Nynaeve's ter'angreals on her (detection and unraveling), which makes her attempt fail. She keeps the fireball small because that would, logically, be the only way for Alivia to detect that she's under attack. If you could detect reversed channeling, you'd think that Cyndane would know about it, and perhaps change up her game plan.

 

 

Finally, in Knife of Dreams the rebels have found a way to detect a man's channeling, this might just be the the underlying weave for the different detection ter'angreals, and I think it's introduced to give the Light a way to find someone that's reversing their weaves. In other words, I think that weave will tell you if someone is reversing their weave, Demandred's unknown ability if you will.

 

As for the Light knowing how to reverse a weave, I don't think we've heard about them learing it, as I understand it was a rare weave to know even in the Age of Legends.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Don't get me wrong, my acerberity in that comment came from Robert addressing 'my confusion'. I do see the possibility you raise.

 

Which was clearly a response to your assertion in the post immediately preceding mine regarding what you considered to be my "confusion", which you disingenuously disguised as "the confusion".  ::)

 

That, however, is a massive reach.

 

Yes.  That a Forsaken, when attacked, would respond by channeling.  What a massive reach.

 

There is no alteration of the web, no new weaves, and thus no sensation of active channeling. The webs are simply maintained and we know that that doesn't cause that sensation--Elayne maintains inverted shields--indeed even manipulates them--but lacking an alteration to the web there is no sensation of active channeling. That is much how Leane would have done it, the two webs prewoven simply manipulated into interactions (much like Elayne laying the shield) causing the transformation--but not any active channeling, just manipulating of the prewoven (set) weave.

 

Shields are not tied to a physical location.  They are not woven to touch their target, they are woven and then placed.  Every description is the same, whether the shield is reversed, inverted, or regular.  It is a weave designed to be woven and then placed, indeed, it has to be woven and then placed, from everything we've seen.

 

The weaves to make cuendillar are ... ahem ... different.  Made and used differently.  Tied to a location, woven in a specific configuration, and not, by any indication, mobile.

 

Again, you assumed that awfully quickly, but i don't think you actually looked at the nature of the weave. Two seperate webs, set, and then moved to interact.

 

Luckers ... the second weave is woven through the first, not "set, and then moved to interact."

 

Shields can be woven, inverted, and moved.  They are designed to be used so.  The cuendillar weaves are tied to a physical object, from the start.

 

But those weaves, both the field and the weave that passes through them, remain static--which we know as fact thanks to that remarkably detailed description you mentioned--indeed, it is specifically stated how the weave is not altered once woven in Crossroads of Twilight.

 

Thats exactly my point!  You can't weave them, invert them, and then MOVE them; they are static.  They are tied to a physical object, one surrounding, the other penetrating, unlike all of the other weaves (like shields) which we have seen set, then moved.  Shields are not tied to a physical location.  They are "moved" to block someone's access to the locationless Source.  This weave is tied to a physical object.  Leane had to be close enough to the chain to see it and channel around it before she could make the weaves, which means that she was close enough that she should have been felt by the watching Aes Sedai.  Unless concealing your ability to channel actually conceals your channeling.  In which case they would have felt the nothing that they felt.

[elmis]

I haven't reread the passages where they learn the cuendillar weave, so bear with me here RAW, but don't you think it's somewhat odd if the rebels (and then probably Nyn and Elayne too, as they got their info from Moghedien) knew about reversing weaves, without any info to the reader? First time we hear about actually reversing, the name and tidbits of information, is in Winter's Heart.

 

And if they know (assuming they got the info from Moghedien), why have the whole segment where it is introduced to Verin as almost to underline the power of the Forsaken?

 

Sometimes KISS is better. :)

 

Maybe one of the guard Aes Sedai was a Brown lost in thought, or a pair of White arguing about the chicken and the egg, and simply didn't feel Leane set the weave before she inverted it.

 

Or perhaps even Luckers might be right, that you can bring it with you. Egwenes POV lends to that idea. Found this on wotmania:

 

"Clever Leane," Egwene muttered. … Leane had prepared everything in advance, before coming in sight of the harbor, all inverted and her ability masked.

 

- Knife of Dreams, Embers Falling on Dry Grass

 

Egwene's use of the word "prepared" (rather than, say, "planned" ) is of interest here. It seems to imply that, not only did Leane channel, invert, and tie-off the weave to mask her ability before she got to the harbor (which is undeniable – the Aes Sedai there never saw a glow around Leane), but she also channeled and inverted the weave to turn the chain to cuendillar before she got to the harbor. That is, she channeled and inverted (i.e. "prepared" ) everything that was needed prior to arriving in the harbor, to prevent detection. In which case, Leane simply held the cuendillar weave as she entered the harbor, and then placed it on the chain after arriving, maintaining it long enough to transform half of the chain before being caught.

 

Or perhaps even that RJ didn't think it through enough (that has happened in the past). Personally, if Egwenes reasoning is not up to par (with what we know about the cuendillar weave), I think it's a mix between her reasoning and a small error on RJ's part.

 

As with all my other posts, I'm 101% sure you can't feel anything when someone is channeling reversed. But I seriously doubt that the forces of Light have that knowledge, and thus didn't use it in the harbor chain plan. If they knew how to reverse, a simple question is; Why didn't Egwene simply think that, instead of going through the whole prepared, inverted, masked line of thought?

 

Anyway, lots of additional information on the wotmania page, worth checking out. :)

[Bob T Dwarf]

Robert -

 

Again, you extrapolate far too much from a single data point.  Melare's POV stating she sensed nothing of what Leane was doing "proves" nothing.  Neither about Leane nor about Graendal.

 

Melare may simply be weak or even inept in the area of detecting unknown weaves.  Leane, as all Aes Sedai, had developed her own style of weaving.  Her method of inverting, reversing, and hiding a weave may have been totally unique to what any current Aes Sedai or any Forsaken could recognize. 

 

In any event, the statement is only evidence that on that single occasion, one Aes Sedai was unable to sense what another Aes Sedai was doing.  All other occasions, circumstances, and participants are different. 

 

You seem to continually infer that because one practitioner of an art can do something, all others can, as well.  If that were true, we'd be knee deep in Michaelangelo's and Beethoven's and Edison's and Einstein's.

[Luckers]

Verin doesn't "sense" anything Graendal does, only the effects. 

 

the passage:

 

Using the full strength of her circle, she wove her sheild, and watched aghast as it rebounded.  The woman was already embracing Saidar, though no light shone around her, and she was immensely strong.

Then she had no time for though of anything as the golden-haired woman spun around and began channeling

 

She knows the woman can channel and was embracing saidar because her shield rebounds.  If neither of those thinbgs were true, her shield would have worked, hence she deduces the woman can channel.

 

She "states" the 'woman began channeling' because at that point, she was "fighting off an attack on her life" and it would have been pretty obvious as whatever Graendal used that killed Kumira started hitting Verin's circle.

 

 

Which is a theory. One which we're all familiar with. Another one states that Verin specifically realises an exact moment in which a reversed channeler begins channeling. Sorry.

 

 

Quote

Don't get me wrong, my acerberity in that comment came from Robert addressing 'my confusion'. I do see the possibility you raise.

 

Which was clearly a response to your assertion in the post immediately preceding mine regarding what you considered to be my "confusion", which you disingenuously disguised as "the confusion".

 

It 'clearly' wasn't since i didn't get that. In any case you were wrong, i stated that as the point of confusion because it is... its a point that we don't know the exact meaning of, hence its confusing nature.

 

I'm actually kind of insulted Robert. Did you really think I was being that childish? Either way I think I deserve an apology, because you were and are being childish.

 

Quote

That, however, is a massive reach.

 

Yes.  That a Forsaken, when attacked, would respond by channeling.  What a massive reach.

 

Yes, true. Its not really a response to my comment, but its nevertheless true.

 

Shields are not tied to a physical location.  They are not woven to touch their target, they are woven and then placed.  Every description is the same, whether the shield is reversed, inverted, or regular.  It is a weave designed to be woven and then placed, indeed, it has to be woven and then placed, from everything we've seen.

 

The weaves to make cuendillar are ... ahem ... different.  Made and used differently.  Tied to a location, woven in a specific configuration, and not, by any indication, mobile.

 

I disagree. They are a set weave--as is stated--then touched to the metal. Placed... is the word i believe you used. Placed to the metal.

 

Luckers ... the second weave is woven through the first, not "set, and then moved to interact."

 

Shields can be woven, inverted, and moved.  They are designed to be used so.  The cuendillar weaves are tied to a physical object, from the start.

 

From the start of the transformation. But that transformation doesn't begin until the two webs are brought to interact, and those two webs are static--they arn't altered once woven. Theoretically they therefore can be prewoven and brought to interact later. Which by all evidence they are.

 

Thats exactly my point!  You can't weave them, invert them, and then MOVE them; they are static.  They are tied to a physical object, one surrounding, the other penetrating, unlike all of the other weaves (like shields) which we have seen set, then moved.  Shields are not tied to a physical location.  They are "moved" to block someone's access to the locationless Source.  This weave is tied to a physical object.  Leane had to be close enough to the chain to see it and channel around it before she could make the weaves, which means that she was close enough that she should have been felt by the watching Aes Sedai.  Unless concealing your ability to channel actually conceals your channeling.  In which case they would have felt the nothing that they felt.

 

Please don't misrepresent me. I understand your point and it is not mine--which I've no doubt you know. My point is that a static weave by its very nature can be inverted--indeed, for a weave to be inverted it must be static--in the sense that the channeler is not drawing on the source to continue weaving.

 

We know that the cuendillar weave is this type of weave--its stated and i quoted it--and as such we know it can be inverted.

 

As for your points about the movement of static weaves... I strongly disagree. They can be moved, including ones that ARE set to a specific physical space. We have seen Illusions and Maskings all move with the individual whilst inverted (Aside from which you've offered no evidence that they can't be).

 

These webs are two static webs that create an effect when they interact. This is a fact, its stated by a character. As such these webs can indeed by all rules of logic be prepared prior and later brought to interact thus causing the cuendillar effect.

 

 

 

Look your clearly getting annoyed. I don't want to have another bitch fight with you, so take what you want from it, but these facts remain.

 

1. Once woven, these specific weaves arn't altered.

2. A prewoven web can be moved without requiring drawing on the source.

3. Without drawing on the source there is no active channeling.

 

 

I don't think I'll comment on this thread again.

[elmis]

Before you go, please respond to my post trying to shoot down your theory about reversing. I stayed up all night writing it just for you Luckers. :)

[aevogt]

My point is this.  If I blindfold my brother he will not be able to see anything I am doing.  If I punch him in the face, he won't see it coming, but as soon as my fist makes contact with his face, he will know immediately what I am doing.  This is what ahppens with Verin and Graendal.  Verin is effectively blindfiolded but she knows what is happening as soon as it happens.