OK. Shadowspawn can not use Gateways - it kills them & the Ways are mostly

[RobertAlexWillis]

On another subject I'm wondering if Doman has remained around in addition to the other stuff he's done, to provide his angreal at the last minute.  Just a thought

 

Considering the fact that his entire collection was confiscated, and then later his ship was seized and he was made property (just in case he had it hidden somewhere), I think that is an unlikely scenario.

[RobertAlexWillis]

We don't actually know that either. What if the gathering began, then the opinion got better for a while, and then it went back.

 

Elayne's POV in TSR ch 6 specifically says they were gathered by the Tairens, which means it started after the War of the Hundred Years.  The gathering ended over 300 years ago, per Moiraine, same chapter.

 

There is nothing to indicate that it began, and then the attitude changed for a while.  Given that the Aes Sedai apparently knew the cache existed, if there was any opportunity at all, they would have swooped down on it, since they publicly and openly maintain that all objects associated with the Power are the exclusive property of the White Tower.

 

When Nynaeve, Elayne, and Egwene went to check it out (there is no mention at all of Moiraine checking it out before entering the doorframe, which she knew about prior to entering the Stone) they encountered no wardings or problems, at least, they didn't mention any, and I can hardly believe that Elayne would dwell on the rusted locks and layers of mold and dust the way she did if they had encountered something of the Power.  Ditto Rand ... no mention or thought of overcoming a warding.

 

Why would someone make a ward that simply let any and all channelers through without a problem?  How would that ward be effective against either Be'lal or the Black Ajah?

 

The people who made the specially attuned warding on Callandor were millenia dead by the time the Great Holding began to be gathered.  No mention is made by anyone of any warding prior to the one Rand set.  The only basis for assuming that there was one is an assumption of competence on the part of Be'lal, and thats not an assumption I'm prepared to make.

[elmis]

I've skimmed through the five pages here at work so bear with me. :)

 

When it comes to the ways, I'm not sure if they simply let the Waygate die (by taking away the leaves) or if Kaldrin channeled the nasty trap. Either way it's always a safe bet to have someone watch the gates, as the nasty weave would let the Trollocs and Myrddraal live for a few hours(?). Good to have the intel, and perhaps even be ready for an highly unlikely attack on the Stedding.

 

About the Great Holding.. I always figured that Rand himself set up those wardings, just so that none of the Forsaken or other Aes Sedai could pick through it to find something useful, as he himself didn't have time to check it all before getting a move on. Not sure if someone already said that, or even shot that theory down, as I said I had to read fast. :)

 

I read yet another 'who killed Asmodean' theory post the other day and it got me thinking..

 

How Rahvin got all those Trollocs and Myrdraal into the Royal Palace at the end of tFoH without using Gateways? He obviously knew an attack was comming and got some reinforcements.. but without Gateways how does one transport (several) thousands of Trollocs into the heart of a city like Caemlyn? There is a Waygate there, but as I said, thousands, or even just hundreds of Trollocs spilling out from a small alley basement seems rather odd. Not to mention that the attack was quick, they were in Caemlyn 8-10-12(?) hours after Rand initially said "Rahvin is going to pay" (paraphrasing).

 

Spy getting word to Rahvin, Rahvin getting word to say a Trolloc camp he's set up in The Braem Wood (100% pure speculation that, just to make it seem more plausable), Trollocs getting into the Ways, moving in the Ways, out in Caemlyn, into the Palace. I guess the time frame could work, but it would be tight imo., unless he already had the Trollocs in the Palace which seems odd to me at least. 

[Luckers]

Elayne's POV in TSR ch 6 specifically says they were gathered by the Tairens, which means it started after the War of the Hundred Years.  The gathering ended over 300 years ago, per Moiraine, same chapter.

 

I'm sorry, but the Stone of Tear has been around since before the White Tower. Tairens is a plural of those that live in Tear--you can't state that people that lived in the city of Tear didn't name themselves that even in times past.

 

 

There is nothing to indicate that it began, and then the attitude changed for a while.  Given that the Aes Sedai apparently knew the cache existed, if there was any opportunity at all, they would have swooped down on it, since they publicly and openly maintain that all objects associated with the Power are the exclusive property of the White Tower.

 

Beind friendly is not being controlling. Indeed the Aes Sedai cornered there by Guire Amalasen had no need of friendship to be there, simple need provides.

 

When Nynaeve, Elayne, and Egwene went to check it out (there is no mention at all of Moiraine checking it out before entering the doorframe, which she knew about prior to entering the Stone) they encountered no wardings or problems, at least, they didn't mention any, and I can hardly believe that Elayne would dwell on the rusted locks and layers of mold and dust the way she did if they had encountered something of the Power.  Ditto Rand ... no mention or thought of overcoming a warding.

 

Which is the very conundrum that made me raise the issue.

 

Why would someone make a ward that simply let any and all channelers through without a problem?  How would that ward be effective against either Be'lal or the Black Ajah?

 

Again, my issue with it.

 

The people who made the specially attuned warding on Callandor were millenia dead by the time the Great Holding began to be gathered.  No mention is made by anyone of any warding prior to the one Rand set.  The only basis for assuming that there was one is an assumption of competence on the part of Be'lal, and thats not an assumption I'm prepared to make.

 

Well I am. I'm sorry champ, but the assumption that Be'lal would not have pillaged the Holding in his Four months of residance... not rational. Not by a long shot.

[elmis]

Ah, now I understand the discussion. Yeah, seems rather odd that Be'lal wouldn't have checked out the Great Holding. RJ's lack of answer to your question on the matter Luckers, lends me to believe that it was an oversight by him. ;)

[wvlr]

I know that it is a really flimsy answer, but the only excuse that I can think of is that Tairens do not like the Power and so they do not talk about the Great Holding a lot.  Probably only a few people knew of it - other than the WT.    So maybe Be'lal - who was initially busy consolidating his power base - just did not hear about it before Rand got there and "locked it up".    The only reason Rand found out about it is Moraine.

 

Sounds lame to me but for Be'lal to ignore it because he was so fixated on Callandor is even worse.

[icspots]

I know that it is a really flimsy answer, but the only excuse that I can think of is that Tairens do not like the Power and so they do not talk about the Great Holding a lot.  Probably only a few people knew of it - other than the WT.    So maybe Be'lal - who was initially busy consolidating his power base - just did not hear about it before Rand got there and "locked it up".    The only reason Rand found out about it is Moraine.

 

Sounds lame to me but for Be'lal to ignore it because he was so fixated on Callandor is even worse.

 

Rand found out about the holding from the book Treasures of the Stone.  One of the three that told him about the Doorframe Ter'angreal.

 

I also can't believe that if Be'lal knew about the Holding that he would not have gone through it while he was there even if it wouldn't have been as cool as Callandor it would have been something.  So I agree with wvlr that it's possible that he just didn't hear about it.  Kind of like when Moghedien compulsed Nynaeve and Elayne in Tanchico and asked if they had any angreal, etc. in their rooms.  The only ones they had were on their persons so they didn't give them to her.  Maybe Be'lal asked questions in the same kind of way and the High Lords answered in the same way as Elayne and Nynaeve.

[wvlr]

I also can't believe that if Be'lal knew about the Holding that he would not have gone through it while he was there even if it wouldn't have been as cool as Callandor it would have been something.  So I agree with wvlr that it's possible that he just didn't hear about it.  Kind of like when Moghedien compulsed Nynaeve and Elayne in Tanchico and asked if they had any angreal, etc. in their rooms.  The only ones they had were on their persons so they didn't give them to her.  Maybe Be'lal asked questions in the same kind of way and the High Lords answered in the same way as Elayne and Nynaeve.

 

Especially if you think about it.    Having a angreal could have helped him GET Callandor, since he knew that Rand/LT was strong - it is always a good idea to have an "edge"

[aevogt]

THree isn't any evidence that Liandrin and her cronies checked out the holding either and they were in Tear for Days before the confrontation with the wonder girls.

[wvlr]

THree isn't any evidence that Liandrin and her cronies checked out the holding either and they were in Tear for Days before the confrontation with the wonder girls.

 

Well, the "days" that Liandrin had are much more understandable than the months/weeks that Be'lal had.    Both are pretty lame.    Liandrin though would have had to ask permission and we know that Tairens did not like AS so she probably would not have done this.

 

Rand and company did not have to ask permission because he "owned/controlled" the Stone at that point.    Be'lal though would not have had to "ask" permission to enter - if he knew about it,  because he could just Travel to the room.

 

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

Like I said, the Holding is quite huge.  Be'lal probably DID search the Holding but simply didn't find anything.  Having only his lonesome looking, not knowing what he was looking for, and not being ta'veren, its quite understandable that he had never found anything.  Whatever Power-items he did find would most likely be ter'angreal trinkets or something that isn't useful to him in particular(such as the balefire rod - he already knows how to weave balefire, it wouldn't be a great find for him).

[RobertAlexWillis]

I'm sorry, but the Stone of Tear has been around since before the White Tower. Tairens is a plural of those that live in Tear--you can't state that people that lived in the city of Tear didn't name themselves that even in times past.

 

Um ... the people in it were not always called Tairens.  They were Essenians, or Moreinans (Morani?  Moreini?).  The point is, someone from Four Kings is not called "A Four Kinger"  Sometimes cities impart their name to their inhabitants, sometimes they don't.  The attitude behind the Great Holding is consistent only with "modern" Tairens.  As you yourself pointed out, there have been dozens of Aes Sedai in residence in the Stone in the past.  Would they really just walk away from that kind of Power based loot?

 

Which is the very conundrum that made me raise the issue.

 

A conundrum explained by one thing.  Be'lal was stupid.

 

Again, my issue with it.

 

Again, my explanation.

 

Well I am. I'm sorry champ, but the assumption that Be'lal would not have pillaged the Holding in his Four months of residance... not rational. Not by a long shot.

 

Aginor drawing enough of the Power to kill himself wasn't rational.  It happened.  Ishamael challenging Rand with Callandor in his hand wasn't rational.  It happened.  Supporting a being who has repeatedly demonstrated his untrustworthiness, and is almost certainly going to destroy reality, is not rational, but all of the Forsaken have done that.  People aren't always rational.  The actual events that happened indicate that Be'lal simply did not go down to the basement and root around.  He was simply focused on Callandor.  I admit that it is not rational.  It is moronic.  That doesn't mean its not what happened.

[elmis]

Anyone have an answer to my question on page 5? Would love to hear some input on it. :)

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

he would have used the Ways to bring them in originally, and then hid them in the forests around caemlyn(remember that trollocs were successfully hidden around caemlyn in TEOTW).

 

the only issue is WHY and WHEN the trollocs were there.  unless there is a time-discrepancy within the ways(i don't remember if there is or not), I highly doubt that the trollocs could make it from a blight waygate to the caemlyn waygate in 12 hours time.  therefore, they were stored in advance(albeit, i don't know if it matches up with rahvin's MO).

[Luckers]

Quote

I'm sorry, but the Stone of Tear has been around since before the White Tower. Tairens is a plural of those that live in Tear--you can't state that people that lived in the city of Tear didn't name themselves that even in times past.

 

Um ... the people in it were not always called Tairens.  They were Essenians, or Moreinans (Morani?  Moreini?).  The point is, someone from Four Kings is not called "A Four Kinger"  Sometimes cities impart their name to their inhabitants, sometimes they don't.  The attitude behind the Great Holding is consistent only with "modern" Tairens.  As you yourself pointed out, there have been dozens of Aes Sedai in residence in the Stone in the past.  Would they really just walk away from that kind of Power based loot?

 

Really... the Four Kings... thats gonna be your comparison to one of the greatest cities in the world?

 

People name themselves by their cities mate. It's a bit of a big city thing, and besides Four Kinger is a bit of a mouthful, and sounds a bit dirty besides, but it does happen.

 

And you don't know anything about the attitudes of the past inhabitants of Tear. As Siuan herself states, a nations alliegences in no way sways what lies in the heart of a man.

 

As for the Aes Sedai--you don't steal from a national storehouse, however much you might want what they have. And Satelle Anan makes clear that Aes Sedai law does recognise ownership even of power related objects--however much it may annoy the Sisters.

 

Quote

Which is the very conundrum that made me raise the issue.

 

A conundrum explained by one thing.  Be'lal was stupid.

 

Nope, sorry. Not an answer. I can twist myself around some pretty elaborate excuses, but that ones just a blanket impossibility. *shrug*

 

Quote

Well I am. I'm sorry champ, but the assumption that Be'lal would not have pillaged the Holding in his Four months of residance... not rational. Not by a long shot.

 

Aginor drawing enough of the Power to kill himself wasn't rational.  It happened.  Ishamael challenging Rand with Callandor in his hand wasn't rational.  It happened.  Supporting a being who has repeatedly demonstrated his untrustworthiness, and is almost certainly going to destroy reality, is not rational, but all of the Forsaken have done that.  People aren't always rational.  The actual events that happened indicate that Be'lal simply did not go down to the basement and root around.  He was simply focused on Callandor.  I admit that it is not rational.  It is moronic.  That doesn't mean its not what happened.

 

Mate, thats a point in my favour. We arn't speaking of rationality, we are speaking of greed. Be'lal--much like Aginor, and indeed all of the Forsaken--displays an active greed for angreal and sa'angreal. Its one of their single most important goals, suggesting that Be'lal didn't take an hour out of the four months he spent in the Stone to explore the worlds second greatest storehouse of power related objects is... impossible.

 

His baser instincts and his intelligence both would have dictated checking it out, there is no cross like with Aginor. I'm sorry mate, but no... thats just not possible. *shrug*

 

 

[cloglord]

Okay, at first, I wasn't all that interested in this thread, as it looked like it was supposed to be a thread about traveling trollocs by way of portal stones, but in the last five pages, I've found that this thread doesn't have anything to do with its subject, and that this subject is more interesting.  First, how sammael knew that Rand had marked the waygate, but not apparently spun through the ward...

 

ACoS Ch. 41  tells us exactly what the scenario was.  Rand has figured out that Sammael has warded SL in boxes, and he sees his trap on the waygate intact, he sees evidence that the trollocs had come out of it, and he also comments internally about how all of Sammy's weavings were equally invisible to him.  The explaination is simple.  Sammy warded SL, we do not know if it was before or after Rand set the trap but in either case, the end result is the same.  Saidin was being used within the gateway's box, and it tripped the ward.  Sammy didn't have to know what it was, he only needed to know that there was a weave using saidin to mark that place as Rand's.  And what better way to test that invisible trap/ward then to send a couple hundred expendible redshirt trollocs through it?

 

As for the holding/warding situation, I think that the ignorance argument holds the most weight.  Moraine thinks that it has probably been longer than 100 years since the holding has even been visited, and the tariens have not collected anything in over 300 years.  There is not even a single Aes Sedai alive who actually remembers the great holding being added too.  Now we know that Moraine knew about it, so we can safely assume that some aes sedai knew about it as well, but It is certainly possible that Tariens, as a whole, had forgotten about the great holding. The Aes Sedai are the only group with the interest or the motivation to remember that the great holding even exists, and they aren't likely to go telling anyone.  Since Be'lal hadn't had regular access to aes sedai in the four months that he was in Tear, it is certainly possible that he hadn't heard about it.  The big problem that I have here is that Eldrith and Marilin, both former browns before becoming black, should have probably known about the holding.  The only reason that I can think of that they hadn't gone down there yet, was that Be'lal was keeping them too busy.  My take, be'lal wasn't stupid(in this instance), or arrogant, he was ignorant. 

 

Lastly, I agreee that Four Kinger sounds a little dirty.

[wvlr]

Okay, at first, I wasn't all that interested in this thread, as it looked like it was supposed to be a thread about traveling trollocs by way of portal stones,

 

Look if you don't like my thread - then just say so! :D :D :D

 

Just joking.    Actually even though the subject has drifted off topic, I do think that it is interesting.

 

I like the Be'lal was ignorant view myself.    Much better than Be'lal was a Moron!      All the Forsaken are Morons but to take it to the level that he knew of the Great Holding and did not bother to check is just .............. to much to accept!

 

[aevogt]

To quote Rahvin at the beginning of TFoH

 

"Sammael had always liked to dupe his enemies into thinking they could take him by surprise."

 

The only thing about the fight in SL that took him by surprise was Machin Shin.  Rand was the dupe.  Sammael intended to finish it at SL before Rand ever went to Illian.