Tarmon Gaidin: Moiraine's Return & The Strike on Shayol Ghul

[Luckers]

We don't know for sure of course, but ultimately i think it would be quite hard for a borderland ruler to turn to the shadow. They are too much the focus of things in a society preternaturally aware of the Shadow's threat.

 

Yeah, I mean, just look at Lord Ingtar!

 

Oh wait ...

 

I mean ...

 

;D

 

Nah, but I agree, none of them is a likely candidate ... I agree with you about the origin and purpose of those 13 Aes Sedai, and I agree that the Borderlanders are ignorant of their purpose.  I'm just wondering if the trap, whatever it is, will be important enough for Demandred to stick his nose out, since I think he's behind not only the escape of Mazrim Taim, but that he ordered the 13 Black Ajah Sisters to go south with the Borderlanders, who I think he conned into going south in the first place.

 

Ingtar's a borderland ruler? Is he the Queen of Terribithia? A fun game, but perhaps less so near the blight.

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Ingtar's a borderland ruler? Is he the Queen of Terribithia? A fun game, but perhaps less so near the blight.

 

Well ... he was a Lord along the Blightborder ... one of the rulers of Shienar ... and much more directly engaged in the fight against the Shadow's threat than anyone but maybe Agelmar ...

 

So, um ... yeah.  The word "ruler" can apply to more than Kings and Queens ...

 

And how do you know where Terabithia is?  Maybe its in different places in different Ages, hmmmm?

[Luckers]

So, um ... yeah.  The word "ruler" can apply to more than Kings and Queens ...

 

Well, not really it can't. It's why they have other words like 'Lord' for those lower down in the hierarchy.

 

And there is a difference between the degree of attention payed to a Lord as to a ruler. There are hundreds, if not thousands of Lords in a nation, there is only one perspective ruler.

 

And how do you know where Terabithia is?  Maybe its in different places in different Ages, hmmmm?

 

I know because I am a princess of that place. Caddy even made me a crown.

 

That bitch.

[Cadsuane]

Watch your mouth, sonny boy, or I'll glare pointedly at you over the top of my glasses and click my false teeth admonishingly.  >:(  ;D

[Luckers]

Silly girl, thats like saying you'll give me candy.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Well ... to add to this fairly ridiculous "argument" ...

 

I know Wikipedia isn't always the most reliable of sources, but they got this one right:

 

Ruler can also refer to a statesman in charge or ceremonial head of state of a country or minor politically significant principality

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruler

 

A ruler is anyone who "rules" something.  A wife can be the "ruler" of her marriage (I'm not sure a husband can be ...), the county squire can be the "ruler" of his county, and Ingtar is one of the "rulers" of the Borderlands ... not a sovereign monarch, but a Lord exercising great authority.

 

To throw your own words back in your face in a most petty and satisfying manner, thats why they have other words like "King" for those higher up in the hierarchy.

 

Another definition:

 

One who rules; one who exercises sway or authority; a governor.

 

http://www.hydroponicsearch.com/spelling/simplesearch/query_term-ruler/database-!/strategy-exact

 

Just as all eagles are birds, but not all birds are eagles, so all kings are rulers, but not all rulers are kings.

 

Now ... Caddy ... would you please stick some candy in his mouth?  ;D

[icspots]

Anyone thought that perhaps some of those 13 are DF's, but not all.  I mean how many DF's would it take to be able to manipulate the others into thinking they were doing something other than what they were doing... perhaps on the orders of the Amyrlin?  If they convince (or otherwise manipulate) the other sisters with them that they have to capture Rand then all they have to do is assure that they're the ones in control of the circle when they confront Rand. 

 

Also they've pretty much been isolated with the borderlanders for quite some time and probably haven't gotten much in the way of intelligence recently.  Granted they've probably heard some info. from eyes and ears that they've passed by, but they may not know too much about all the Ash'aman, how many there are, how well trained they are, the general state of things, etc.  They may still think that 13 Aes Sedai linked are enough to take the DR without any problems.

[adamn]

number one... does it really matter about techincality of words? in a basic discussion at least lol ingtar had great authority close to 2nd from the ruler himself. he knew the dangers of the shadow moreso than most... or so we thought lol.

 

and back to the discussion

 

i reckon if the sisters with the borderlanders are recieving orders from the forsaken then all the sisters would be black. im sure whatever they have in store isnt going to be pretty. it will probally be a big and important task and i dont think anyone who would send that order would trust primitives to take control of other primitives if you understand what i mean.

 

here is a thought...

 

one forsaken who i never really knew would fit in is mesanna. imagine a circle of 13 with her in it? certainly a very leathal weapon. but thats just one of my crazy ideas lol

[Luckers]

Well ... to add to this fairly ridiculous "argument" ...

 

I know Wikipedia isn't always the most reliable of sources, but they got this one right:

 

Ruler can also refer to a statesman in charge or ceremonial head of state of a country or minor politically significant principality

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruler

 

A ruler is anyone who "rules" something.  A wife can be the "ruler" of her marriage (I'm not sure a husband can be ...), the county squire can be the "ruler" of his county, and Ingtar is one of the "rulers" of the Borderlands ... not a sovereign monarch, but a Lord exercising great authority.

 

To throw your own words back in your face in a most petty and satisfying manner, thats why they have other words like "King" for those higher up in the hierarchy.

 

Another definition:

 

One who rules; one who exercises sway or authority; a governor.

 

http://www.hydroponicsearch.com/spelling/simplesearch/query_term-ruler/database-!/strategy-exact

 

Just as all eagles are birds, but not all birds are eagles, so all kings are rulers, but not all rulers are kings.

 

Now ... Caddy ... would you please stick some candy in his mouth?   ;D

 

 

The wikipedia one is speaking of duchies and principalities were the ruler IS a Duke or Prince. Ingtar was none of these, and quite clearly not the ruler of Shienar.

 

I don't disagree that others could be termed rulers within a nation. Leaders of powerful Houses and the like. People who actually rule within their lands--like Bashere, in Saldaea. But not Ingtar mate.

 

You just jumped a bit prematurely onto that comment is all. I must say though im impressed at the lengths you'll go to.

 

Anyone thought that perhaps some of those 13 are DF's, but not all.  I mean how many DF's would it take to be able to manipulate the others into thinking they were doing something other than what they were doing... perhaps on the orders of the Amyrlin?  If they convince (or otherwise manipulate) the other sisters with them that they have to capture Rand then all they have to do is assure that they're the ones in control of the circle when they confront Rand. 

 

Its certainly possible, though i personally believe the sisters that later joined the borderlanders were the sisters responsible for freeing Taim, and are thus all black.

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

I don't disagree that others could be termed rulers within a nation. Leaders of powerful Houses and the like. People who actually rule within their lands--like Bashere, in Saldaea. But not Ingtar mate.

 

Ingtar was apparently second only to Lord Agelmar in the most important outpost of the nation that seems to deal with the Blight most often (Tarwin's Gap and all that).  Ingtar was the Head of House Shinowa.  He ruled his estates and had liegemen sworn to him.  That clearly falls within the definition of a "ruler".  He might not have been a "premier ruler" or a "powerful ruler" or one of the "most important rulers", but he was a "ruler" in the Borderlands, who was deeply involved with the fight against the Blight, and also a Darkfriend.

 

You just jumped a bit prematurely onto that comment is all. I must say though im impressed at the lengths you'll go to.

 

Actually, as demonstrated by the "Nah, but I agree ..." etc etc in my first post, my "objection" was somewhat tongue in cheek.  I understood that by "rulers" you meant "soverign monarchs" and was just being picky.  But there's nothing like someone insisting that the word they said means what they think it means, when it doesn't (or at least, is not limited to that meaning) to get my back up, even lightheartedly (which this still is for me).  I've had to correct far too many students on similar issues for me to just "roll with it".  Imprecision in language is an enemy of mine.  ;D

[cloglord]

Here's a thought, what if Diera is a DF? We already know that Saldean's are fiercely protective of their wives, what if Bashere's prophesized darkness has to do with someone using Diera to manipulate bashere?  I think that would make really interesting reading and mirror the whole "willing to sell my soul for my wife" mentality that Perrin has been exhibiting lately, it might even provide a change for Perrin to redeem himself in that regard....

 

Of course unsupported speculation is my bread and butter....

 

And a ruler could also be an instrument used to measure distance...

[Lord of the Morning]

two things concerning the last battle have peaked my curiosity, apologies if they've already been discussed.  Its been awhile since I've personally re-read the books, but I'm going on what others have said on this forum and from vague memories.

 

#1:  i think its pretty clear at this point that moiraine WILL be making a return, however, i've always been extremely puzzled as to HOW she will make a difference(according to min's viewings, she's absolutely essential).  One possible way i can imagine her helping is by teaching rand to not put everything on his shoulders(he treated her death especially hard), by telling him that she doesn't blame him for what happened to her(which may or may not include being stilled).  My only other idea is that she will help in TRUELY bonding(putting aside dreams for power, etc.) everyone 'of the light' to him.  what are the other theories?

 

#2:  It seems that everyone is expecting a coordinated attack on shayol ghul with rand leading the charge with the male choeden kal.  However, knowing RJ, i expect something more climatic and surprising.  I expect 'the strike on shayol ghul' not to be an offensive strike, rather, it will be a rescue attempt.  As far as i can remember, there are only 3 armies/countries not tied to him in the westland; they are arad doman, the seanchan, and the borderland army(which has the leadership of the borderlands and a significant portion of their strength).  arad doman can be considered handled and the seanchan truce is a top priority for rand.  i expect him to be dealing with those issues fairly quickly.  however, while dealing with the borderlanders, i expect rand to be kidnapped by the thirteen sisters in the camp(who i firmly believe are black).  it will be at this point that TG begins.  it will either take a long time for the 13 sisters to get to shayol ghul(because they don't know how to travel and can't find someone who can) OR rand will undergo various 'tortures' by moridin to convert him to the dark.  regardless, TG will be represented by mass confusion, disorganization, destruction(trolloc armies, light forces fighting each other), and a general loss of hope(eg the Dragon not being found ANYWHERE).  As soon as cadsuane or moiraine contacts perrin or mat, they will use the taveren link to find rand.  at which point what actually happens is anyone's guess.  how does this all sound?

If there is no attack on Shayol Ghul then how will the Dragon's blood stain the slopes of Shayol Ghul, and again in the Pit of Doom?  I think there will be several battles in the borderlands between the forces under Lan, and the Trollocs, Lan will win Tarwin's Gap and Malkier, opening the Blight to a strike by the forces of the Light.  Though I feel there can be no doubt that TG will occur at Shayol Ghul, in fact judging by the two other most important battles to the series, they both occured on a mountain, Blood Snow, and the original strike at shayol Ghul, just saying there seems to be symmetry there.

[RobertAlexWillis]

One possible way i can imagine her helping is by teaching rand to not put everything on his shoulders(he treated her death especially hard), by telling him that she doesn't blame him for what happened to her(which may or may not include being stilled).

 

This seems to be the most likely way in which Moiraine will have an impact.  Her death didn't just hit Rand especially hard, he has almost made her the symbol for all the women he feels responsible for, and that list of women is his mental way of representing all the damage he's done to the world.  Receiving absolution from her would represent to him, in a very real way, absolution from the world.

[Luckers]

f there is no attack on Shayol Ghul then how will the Dragon's blood stain the slopes of Shayol Ghul, and again in the Pit of Doom?  I think there will be several battles in the borderlands between the forces under Lan, and the Trollocs, Lan will win Tarwin's Gap and Malkier, opening the Blight to a strike by the forces of the Light.  Though I feel there can be no doubt that TG will occur at Shayol Ghul, in fact judging by the two other most important battles to the series, they both occured on a mountain, Blood Snow, and the original strike at shayol Ghul, just saying there seems to be symmetry there.

 

I cannot see how Lan could possibly hope to win at Tarwin's Gap. At best he could amass maybe 50,000 troops--none of the channelers. His best hope is in delaying the Trollocs and give the rest of the world time to react.

 

Furthermore though, whilst i agree there will be an attack at Shayol Goul, why would the Light fight its way through the Blight--wherein the very landscape itself would see their harm. Why not simply travel in?

 

I also doubt that TG will be one single battle. Given the various forces and numbers in play its pretty much impossible. My guess is that there will be a battle in Saldaea with forces launched through the Shadows Lance, and a battle around Tar Valon with a force that has driven south through Tarwin Gap, and more than probably another in the south that was launched through the Ways. Probably in Amadacia given the number of stedding along the Shadows Coast. And of course a strike against Shayol Goul toward the end.

[cloglord]

I cannot see how Lan could possibly hope to win at Tarwin's Gap. At best he could amass maybe 50,000 troops--none of the channelers. His best hope is in delaying the Trollocs and give the rest of the world time to react.

 

I don't know where you get these numbers.  In PoD's prolouge, it is pretty clear that the borderlanders left enough people to defend the blight from anything  short of the trolloc wars.  They have IIRC 1/2 a million soldiers with them, which suggests to me that there are at least that many left in the borderlands for Lan to scoop up.  Surely Lan is going to be able to gather more than one in 10?  Escpecially from within Shienar.

 

I can see a way that Lan could get channelers too.  Nynaeve knows where he's headed, and Cadsuane knows that he is gone somewhere.  Cadsuane has a giant network, that includes no small number of Aes Sedai, she also knows how to travel.  How long would it take Cads to send Lan some channelers if she had it in her mind to do so?  I have a feeling that all of the battlefronts that you have suggested are going to be sore pressed, but that they will all be failing at the same rate come TG.

[Majsju]

The borderlanders in Andor count between 200000 and 250000, ie at the very most 1/4 of a million.

 

There are probably more left in the Borderlands, though whether or not it is enough to defend against anything short of the trolloc wars...Alesune seems less sure about that.

But lets say Ethenielle is correct, they have just enough manpower to defend against anything short of the trolloc wars. Problem is, they are not waiting for a second trolloc wars, they are waiting for TG, which might very well dwarf the trolloc wars. Sending hundreds of thousands soldiers to hook up with Lan is an invitation to suicide. 50000 soldiers seems like the very likely maximised outcome for Lan.

 

Whether or not he can get any channelers...Once the BT is dealt with there should be a number of Asha'man available, as well as a number of the roughly 1/3 of the Aes Sedai not participating in the Egwene vs Elaida situation.

He can hardly expect any help from the WT, as I strongly suspect they will have their hands full, first with the Seanchan attack, then with a shadow attack. I find it extremely unlikely that the WT would not be a primary target for the Shadow.

[cloglord]

yup ur right, I went and checked and in WH the estimate was 200,000 soldiers, 13 AS, and 1 great general.  so i guess IDNRC.

 

However, I still think that Lucker's estimate of 50,000 for Lan is low.  If you assume that the borderlanders left the same number of soldiers in the borderlands, then Lan would still only be scooping up 1 in 4 sodliers, and that does not account for the general population of the borderlands that would rush to follow the Golden Crane or the fact that the shienariens would likely follow him 100% in absence of their king and in defense of their homeland.  I'm still interested in how Lucker's came up with that number.

[Majsju]

Defending a place like Tarwins Gap requires way less manpower than defending an outstretched area like the rest of the Borderlands. Remove too many soldiers from the other natons, and the Shadow might simply decide to walk right through there instead of wasting trollocs in Tarwins Gap.

It's not like Lan is supposed to gather enough soldiers to march all the way to SG...

[RobertAlexWillis]

If you assume that the borderlanders left the same number of soldiers in the borderlands, then Lan would still only be scooping up 1 in 4 sodliers, and that does not account for the general population of the borderlands that would rush to follow the Golden Crane or the fact that the shienariens would likely follow him 100% in absence of their king and in defense of their homeland.

 

I would be surprised if he got even the one in ten you mentioned earlier, among the actual soldiers.  To follow him they would be committing treason, everywhere except Shienar ... deserting already undermanned posts in the fact of Tarmon Gai'don ... that would shock me.  Whatever their respect for Lan and the Golden Crane, that would still shock me.

 

Now ... sure, alot of poorly equipped farmers and apprentices might flock behind him (although I bet that would anger him ... he'd know he's just leading them to their deaths).  But 100,000 rabble are just Trolloc fodder.  Heroic fodder, but fodder nonetheless.

 

He would have more success in Shienar, if for no other reason than that by following him, the Shienarans wouldn't be abandoning their country.

 

Cadsuane has a giant network, that includes no small number of Aes Sedai

 

That is still just an assumption ... we have yet to see this "giant network" with "no small number of Aes Sedai", and even if she does have it, I imagine she didn't gather it to support al'Lan Mandragoran's army.

[cloglord]

I would be surprised if he got even the one in ten you mentioned earlier, among the actual soldiers.  To follow him they would be committing treason, everywhere except Shienar ... deserting already undermanned posts in the fact of Tarmon Gai'don ... that would shock me.  Whatever their respect for Lan and the Golden Crane, that would still shock me.

 

Did it shock you when you read about the same thing happening in NS, and for no better reason than some lady raised the banner of Malkier without Lan's knowledge or consent?  Borderlanders deserting their posts in order to fight for Rand? How shocking, it only happened with a 20+ shienariens at Falme and 9,000 Saldean Horse under the command of Bashere.  Yes, I know that Lan isn't Rand, but in the borderlands he might as well be.

 

As for them commiting treason, Lan is convinced that TG is imminent, and he seems to think it will happen at Tarwin's Gap.  Who is the average soldier going to believe, especially if their ruler has gone AWOL?  If the uncrowned king of Malkier says TG is going to happen at Tarwin's Gap, for most soldiers I think that would be motivation enough.

 

Now ... sure, alot of poorly equipped farmers and apprentices might flock behind him (although I bet that would anger him ... he'd know he's just leading them to their deaths).  But 100,000 rabble are just Trolloc fodder.

 

Of course, because borderlander farmers have absolutely no experience fighting trollocs... ::)

 

... more than just Malkieri will rally to the Crane.  Lan will get his 50,000 farmers, mercenaries, and old men. 

 

To be fair you did go on to say that this rabble would get chewed up and spit out by the trolloc horde, but earlier in the same thread you said...

 

...  Many men will gather in Shienar, waiting for Lan.  So, when the time comes,... He can get there, with a considerable force, in time to catch them at Tarwin's Gap, assuming they're not already there.

 

Second, while Tarwin's Gap would be dramatic, Lan may be able to do practical damage if he's harassing them from the flanks and rear, while they try to engage others in the front.  This would be particularly useful if he catches them en route to Tar Valon.  50,000 crazy Borderlanders led by Lan could harass even a million Trollocs... (emphasis mine)

 

So which is it?  Does he have 50,000 useful soldiers, or 50,000 useless rabble, or does it actually mean that Lan will have a force of over 100,000?  Does this include the 100% turn out from both the shienarien military and common people for Lan?

 

That is still just an assumption ... we have yet to see this "giant network" with "no small number of Aes Sedai", and even if she does have it, I imagine she didn't gather it to support al'Lan Mandragoran's army.

 

Cadsuane tells us that she has her own network, and the fact that she managed to hear whispers about Mazrim Taim while on the move escorting Logain to the Tower seems to be a pretty good indicator of the size/effectiveness of her E&E network.  We have also heard about AS that have been meeting with her, on a very fluid basis, over quite a long period of time.  Even if you only grant her 30 sisters as contacts, I would still say that is "no small number."

[aevogt]

Lan's followers will most likely consist of refugee Malkiere which could number...??? 50,000 to 75,000 is probably a good range.

 

Consider the fact that his forces will be following the Golden Crane, their uncrowned King, with the intention of reclaiming the lands of their birthright and I think it's entirely possible that Lan's forces could be the proverbial free safety, executing raids and hit and run battles to keep the Shadow off balance while the rest of the forces of the Light gather for TG. Who knows the Blight and how to fight in it that Lan?

 

Add to that the fact that these are Borderlanders.  Even an untrained apprentice in the borderlands knows that he could be fighting off a trolloc raid any day of his life and is a lot more likely to know one end of a pike from the other than his counterparts to the south.  The very first three that Nynaeve finds jump at the chance to follow.  Now, while they probably wouldn't match up against the same number of Aiel, they will know how to fight and manuever.

 

The Two Rivers people learned how to fight Trollocs pretty quick and all they had was a couple of Warders and two middling strong Aes Sedai to assist them.  That and the old blood, of course.  These people are going to have Lan Mandragon.  The best of the Warders and that means the best of the best.  Unless Agelmar Jagad is a liar.

 

I think Lan's recruiting trip across the north and the battles they fight are going to be one of the best parts of AMoL.

[Luckers]

Cloglord, I got my number from an estimate. Specifically Lan's primrary concern at this stage is speed, which suggests he'll limit himself to mounted warriors. Beyond that he can hardly strip the borderlands. Even if they all wanted to come I don't actually see him allowing it, promise to Nynaeve or no. It would be exactly the opposite of what he wanted, which was for someone to actually look to the Blights defences.

 

50,000 after that seems a viable number.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Yes, I know that Lan isn't Rand, but in the borderlands he might as well be.

 

Well ... yeah, except for the whole "strongest ta'veren in recorded history" bit ...

 

Who is the average soldier going to believe, especially if their ruler has gone AWOL?

 

Um ... the rulers didn't just go AWOL.  They left instructions ... to the effect of "You guys stay here and guard the Blight."

 

Of course, because borderlander farmers have absolutely no experience fighting trollocs...

 

They'd do better than Illianer farmers, of course.  But not as well as soldiers.  Certainly not well enough to handle 10 to one odds or better.  The Trollocs almost broke the Shienarans in TEoTW.  Do you honestly thing that the numbers coming south now will be less?  The farmers will be at a disadvantage equipment-wise, if nothing else.

 

So which is it?  Does he have 50,000 useful soldiers, or 50,000 useless rabble, or does it actually mean that Lan will have a force of over 100,000?  Does this include the 100% turn out from both the shienarien military and common people for Lan?

 

I named 100,000 in this thread as the absolute upper limit that I think he could possibly get.  I thought, and do think, that 50,000 is a much more likely number.  Perhaps I didn't make that sufficiently clear.

 

You do understand the tactical difference between trying to stand in Tarwin's Gap and stop the Trollocs, and arriving after they've already gone through and harassing their flanks while they march toward Tar Valon, right?  You've lifted one statement of mine out of context from a very different conversation, and transplanted it here ... and even you had to admit that there, like here, I said that "that this rabble would get chewed up and spit out by the trolloc horde" if they tried to stand their ground in front of the horde.

 

If the 50,000, or even 100,000, farmers and apprentices have to stand against the Trollocs in a knock down fight, they will be crushed.  If they fight on the flanks as part of something else, then they'll probably still end up dead, but they'll do more damage before eating it.

 

Try to keep things in context.  Unless ... have you considered running for the Senate?  ::)

 

Cadsuane tells us that she has her own network, and the fact that she managed to hear whispers about Mazrim Taim while on the move escorting Logain to the Tower seems to be a pretty good indicator of the size/effectiveness of her E&E network.

 

I agree that it is an indication of the effectiveness of her spy network ... but that does nothing to support your idea that she will be shipping channelers to support Lan's rabble.

 

Even if you only grant her 30 sisters as contacts, I would still say that is "no small number."

 

Again, I'm not sure why you think she will be shipping all of her support off to support Lan's army.  And against a million or so Trollocs, I would call 30 Sisters a "small number".  I guess everything is relative.  None of her "contacts" are going to have the strength of even an average Asha'man.  She's already got her "contacts" out on assignment, in various locations.  She's not going to just say "OK, drop everything, we need to go save that fool girl's husband."

 

If Lan does end up with channelers, its much more likely that Nynaeve will recruit them from the Royal Palace of Caemlyn, where there are over 100 channelers of different types, many of whom acknowledge her authority.

[aevogt]

The Shienarians at Tarwins gap weren't even close to breaking. 

 

50,000 expatriot Malkiere vs 1,000,000 Trollocs at Tarwins Gap

 

1 word - Thermopylae.  They'll have mountains to either side and they can't be flanked.  I'd say that with Lan directing the defenses, and with a solid supply line from Fal Dara they could hold almost indefinitely, even against Trollocs.

 

What tactics do the Fades use?  Charge!  That's not especially difficult to counter with a little time to prepare.  Case in point: that dipsh*t Weiramon Saniago sending charges against hillforts.  Even though WS was intending them to fail, it shows just how ineffective that particular tactic is, unless you're just riding down retreating infantry.

 

Since the Malkieri know they're already dead, and adding in that they were'nt able to fight for their country the first time around, they'll pull a Manetheren and every step they're forced to take in retreat will be soaked with stinking Trolloc blood!

[Luckers]

Firstly, the Shienarans at Tarwin's Gap were essentially defeated prior to Rand's intervention.

 

Secondly Tarwin's Gap is no Thermopalye. By description from the first book the Gap is a very wide space of flat land intersecting the Mountains of Dhoom and the Spine of the World. It represents a funnel through which all major invasions out of eastern blight must pass, true, but it is no bottleneck.

 

Thirdly, the fact is that Fades almost certainly wont be directing this invasion--with Sammael and Be'lal dead it will be Demandred that will ultimately be serving as General to the Shadow. I doubt he'd 'just charge'.

 

Not that i dont think it wont be thematic and moving, but fifty-thousand men--many of whom would not be soldiers--against a million Trollocs?

 

Edited so my sentences make sense. Stupid sentences.