Is one of these women a Darkfriend - The evidence keeps piling up

[DemandredFO]

The surprise DF I think is Davram Bashere.  I forget who it was, might have Cloglord, not sure, about Bashere.

[Angel of Death]

Quote:

 

They did not leave Siuan alone she was under guard when Min rescued her. Do you think the Black Ajah would of stilled one of their members (or sanctioned the act by others) just to keep an eye on a stilled Siuan who was under guard and who they could have easily have killed if yhry wanted to?

 

The BA members only know of 2 - 3 others. It's likely no one in the tower new she was.

[aevogt]

The job of a deep cover mole is not to conduct "wet" operations like killing people or stealing Ter Angreal.  It's too easy for their cover to be blown and then the mole is of no further use.

 

The job of a mole is to uncover secret information and report it to those who can make use of it.

 

As for the question of how she could be stilled as part of her cover. Mesanna has a reputation of being wasteful in order to reach her goals and is unlikely to be lenient if her orders are questioned.  Any DF who displeases the Chosen are usually killed instantly and painfully.  Why would stilling be any different as a requirement to fulfill their oaths to the Dark One. 

 

Leanne as a DF is probably a longshot if we judge her by what she says.  Again, I am always suspicious of any main character that does not have any POV scenes.  You just don't know what's in their head and RJ was way too talented to have done that by accident.

 

 

[Majsju]

Again, I am always suspicious of any main character that does not have any POV scenes.  You just don't know what's in their head and RJ was way too talented to have done that by accident.

 

Leane is not exactly a main character.

Also, to give new characters a POV, there has to be a reason, ie the need to either reveal something, or shed further light on someone elses POV. If giving someone a POV does not add anything important to the story, save the time and the pages and write about someone who does add to the story.

If RJ simply wanted to conceal Leane being a DF, he could easily have given her a few POV and just avoid having her think about anything that would reveal her status.

[aevogt]

Leanne appears in 10 of the 11 books, not counting NS.  If that's not precisely a major character, neither is she a seving girl.

 

Any character can have a POV, correctly, if it adds something to the plot.  The reverse is true as well.  If a character is denied a POV scene, there is a reason for that as well.  That purpose is to deny the reader evidence, for or against, of where that characters internal loyalties actually lie. 

 

[Majsju]

There is quite a number of characters with relatively important part to play that has never had a POV. For example Lan. Do you suggest RJ is trying to keep us in the dark regarding his loyalties as well? Or Thom? Rhuarc? Sulin? Tam?

 

When it comes to Leane, she did not become a very important character until she came to salidar. At first, RJ could not give her a POV, just as he could not give Siuan one, because that could have revealed the plan to make Egwene Amyrlin. After that, Leanes actions are primarily shown through Egwenes POV, becasue Egwene is the character moving the plot forward. Throughout the entire story, Leanes actions are motivated by others, she is not an independent player. Of course, for us as readers it could be interesting to have a POV from every single reoccuring character just to get to know them better, and to expand the WOT universe even more. But it adds nothing to the main story.

 

 

[Tyrell]

IIRC Lan has PoV's in NS, sorry for picking at nits :)

[Majsju]

IIRC Lan has PoV's in NS, sorry for picking at nits :)

 

I chose to ignore that since it is not a part of the main story, it is a bonus for those who wish to read more, but not necessary.

And it takes place 20 years before TEOTW. Even though he got bonded to Moiraine rather quickly, a lot can happen in 20 years.

[elmis]

I totally agree with RAWs post. To me it seems that Sheriam is being beaten by the Shadow to get info. Doesn't look like she's black.

[Aemon raHal]

Anybody consider that after being stilled and all that followed afterwards that Leane turned to the Shadow in a last desperate attempt hoping that she would be Healed somehow by the DO?

 

Is it not possible that she was told to report all she knew about the ongoings in the rebel camp and in exchange she would be healed by the DO (false promise) if she proved useful?

 

 

Just throwing it out there!

[aevogt]

I like it.  That would

[Majsju]

Anybody consider that after being stilled and all that followed afterwards that Leane turned to the Shadow in a last desperate attempt hoping that she would be Healed somehow by the DO?

 

Is it not possible that she was told to report all she knew about the ongoings in the rebel camp and in exchange she would be healed by the DO (false promise) if she proved useful?

 

 

Just throwing it out there!

 

Why would Leane believe the DO could do something she "knows" to be impossible?

How wouls she manage to turn to the Shadow for help? If she is not a DF herself, she would have no inkling of who to approach. And it is quite unlikely that a BA would approach her since she can't channel anymore, and thus would be seen as quite useless. Especially in Salidar where the Shadow already had Delana being a part of the Hall.

[Aemon raHal]

Elephino!

 

I'd like to see a long time "child of the Light" turn to the Dark out of desperation!

 

Anyway, if she "knows" its impossible to get healed, she doesn't just want to roll over and die of depression or whatever she think happens. It was a hard fall she had. She was the Keeper! Then she gets severed cos of stuff she wasn't fully aware of!

 

Maybe she puts on a happy face and gets on with it - or maybe she prays to the DO who she see's having more and more influence on the world. Maybe he can help her.... she's desperate! She knows Aes Sedai can't help her! Maybe the Shadow has these secrets.

 

 

 

On a related tangent Maj, - how do darkfriends locate other darkfriends? How do they form groups or whatever they do?

I'm sure its not in the personals in the Village Weekly. Its not exactly something you advertise.

If it's been mentioned in the books, I don't remember (thats not unusual for me!)

 

You make your pact with the DO... and he or somebody (perhaps a Forsaken or a high up DF) gets in contact?

 

If so, and imagining for the tiniest of fractions of a second that Leane might possibly have maybe turned to the Shadow in her darkest hour, maybe somebody approached her!

 

 

[Majsju]

Week 4 Question: How exactly does one become a Darkfriend? How does the recruiting structure for the Black Ajah work? Being Mistress of Novices, was Merean particularly active in recruiting?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: By and large, each cell of Darkfriends recruits people it thinks are likely candidates, though they need to do so very carefully, studying them, sounding them out slowly. Darkfriends are always on the lookout for new members, since they feel very much like an oppressed minority and want to increase their numbers. Once a move to recruit is made, though, either it succeeds or the failed candidate dies.

 

For someone seeking actively to become a Darkfriend, generally one begins by trying to attract the attention of those who already are Darkfriends. One fairly safe way is to let comments drop that indicate that you don't think the Light is all it's cracked up to be, that praying to the Creator seems useless etc. If this comes to the wrong ears, you might be in varying degrees of trouble depending on what country you are in and who it is that overhears, but you are unlikely to get worse than a flogging from the authorities and possibly only a stern warning to watch your talk from somebody in a tavern, perhaps accompanied by a clout on the ear. Although someone might decide to slip a knife into you in some rougher areas of some towns. It's only relatively safe. By the by, claiming not to believe in the Creator is a good way to avoid recruitment by the Darkfriends. After all, if there is no Creator, how can the Dark One be imprisoned, and if he isn't, then why hasn't he taken over and rewarded the faithful? One of the fastest ways to attract attention is to show yourself willing to kill to advance yourself or simply for gain. That doesn't mean that every strongarm who's willing to slit a throat to steal a purse is a Darkfriend. Some of those might well be horrified by the suggestion. This method has its drawbacks, of course, since if you attract the attention of the authorities first, you are very likely to end up with a noose around your neck or a trip to the headsman's block.

 

In the White Tower, Black sisters watch novices and Accepted closely for any indication that they might be leaning toward the Shadow or susceptible to the promises of the Shadow. They also watch other sisters, since people do change. Not every Black sister was recruited on the day she gained the shawl nor soon after. Merean had a fine position for watching novices and Accepted, but many sisters teach. Some do little else, but others take turns at it for various periods, so Merean was not necessarily the primary recruiter during her time as Mistress of Novices, not even among those in her charge.

 

 

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152

 

Does not quite apply to Leane having a quick change of heart...

[aevogt]

I'll be the first to admit that my Leane theory is a little thin but I'm what's known as a suspicious bas*ard.   Some people leave out the suspicious.  My ex wife for example. ;-}

 

I just think there's too much circumstantial evidence to discount it.  

 

Suian had her desire for revenge to keep her going after she was stilled.  What did Leane have?  Nothing.  I don't buy the domani arts as reason for her to continue living as a normo.  She had nothing but the promise of the shadow to regain herself.  

 

Who says she would have been given th 4eopportunity to have a change of heart.  As I recall the Chosen are not known for asking darkfriends for permission.

 

After reading about Lanfear tearing the skin off a lackey (Hadnan Kadere) who displeased her, and Ishmael killing the head of the BA and torturing the rest for contermanding his orders, I have precisely zero dificulty believing that the BA would still one of their own on orders from one of the Chosen.  Darkfriends are nothing, repeat nothing, to The Chosen but tools and if a tool is broken in the process, all you have to do is get another tool.

[algspkr]

I'd like to see a long time "child of the Light" turn to the Dark out of desperation!

Me too, and I believe that if it does happen it will be Elida in desperation to hold onto the tower.

[Majsju]

Not that it will happen, but it would be interesting to see gawyn jump ship.

[Darian]

Sheriam is black ajah!!!! for a fact !!! the episode with Halima in the tents proves it all!  it was pretty sad to see sheriam humbled. oh, i think she was stripped using the one power by Halima.

[Aemon raHal]

Thanks for posting the RJ quote Maj.

 

 

Anyway, its still possible that she was approached to spy for the Shadow in return for 'healing'!

 

 

Basically, I just want to see a main character that has been there from the start (not necessarily in a position of major influence) turn volintarily to the Shadow.

 

Not necessarily Aes Sedai (there are enough Black Ajah) but a mid-level carachter, who we've seen often enough (not too often though).

 

Another Ingtar, but who's been introduced in the early books, only recently turned, and doesn't turn back to the Light.

 

 

 

 

[Luckers]

Sheriam is black ajah!!!! for a fact !!! the episode with Halima in the tents proves it all!  it was pretty sad to see sheriam humbled. oh, i think she was stripped using the one power by Halima.

 

Dariam, we don't even know that that was Halima. Indeed Sheriam's own thoughts indicate it was a Sitter. Probably either Delana or Lelaine--with my bet on it being Lelaine, it fits her personality.

 

And either way it doesn't prove she's a darkfriend. I suspect the beater probably is, but not Sheriam.

[Vemynal]

Another nail in leane's coffin:

 

Egwene and Leane are responsible for shutting the gates of Tar Valon so no boats may get past, the Aes Sedai who caught leane said they saw her.

 

Leane was in a boat...in the water...masking her ability to channel and her weaves were inverted...her ability ith making cuendillar was supposed to be almost as good as Egwene's.

 

So if Egwene turned the gate to cuendillar instantly why did Leane get caught and not finish turning the gate?

 

How did the Aes Sedai know where to be and know where to look?

 

Messana is working to keep the two towers at each others throats...so why would she let the Salidar Aes Sedai gain such a tool for taking over the tower?

 

Leane, if she's black, would work to support the black ajah's plans of keeping the tower apart.

 

I always thought it was halima beating Sherim and she was black but the stuff with Delana makes sense.

 

Oh and I think lelaine is black^^

[Luckers]

That wasn't Leane's doing. Melare states that they were at a loss, and that it was only because one of the warders spotted Leane's boat that they caught her.

 

As for how they knew, Egwene's betrayal had nothing to do with Leane. We still don't actually know who was behind that betrayal. We know that it wasn't Beonin, or Aran'gar and Mesanna. The strongest suspects are Nicola--though how she learnt the plan even with her inclinations to evesdrop--and the footdragging five (the five Sitters working with the Ajah Heads to reunify the Tower).

[Guest cw]

Where do you get that Leane was supposed to be anywhere near as quick at making cuendillar as Egwene?

 

"She is improving; in some things," Janya said with a pointed frown for the Blue sister.  Janya might have been as sure as any other Sitter that the Hall was getting a puppet when they raised Egwene, but she seemed to have accepted that Egwene did wear the stole, and deserved the proper respect from everyone.  "Of course, I doubt she'll catch Leane unless she applies herself, much less yourself, Mother.  Young Bodewhin might catch her, in fact.  I wouldn't want to be outdone by a novice, myself, but I suppose some don't feel that way."  A stain of red crept into Kairen's cheeks, and her eyes dropped to the goblet.

 

...

 

"Make sure there isn't a next time," Egwene said absently, her attention on Kairen's cup.  The line of white crept upward steadily.  When Leane did this weave, black iron turned to white cuendillar as if the iron were sinking quickly into milk.  For Egwene herself, the change was faster than the blink of an eye, black to white in a flash.  It would have to be Kairen and Leane, bet even Leane was barely fast enough...

Crossroads of Twilight Chapter 17, Secrets, Pages 433 - 433

 

To me, that doesn't sound like Leane is anywhere near as fast as Egwene.  The implication is that you can still watch the progress when Leane is making cuendillar whereas with Egwene the change is too rapid to follow.  Now you need to scale that up from goblets to the harbor chain and figure it is going to take some time.  When you add the fact that they were betrayed and Aes Sedai were on the alert, there isn't anything remotely suspicious about someone who was barely fast enough not being able to finish.  The fact that Leane gave herself every advantage by inverting and using invisibility speaks strongly for her desire to complete the job, not fail.  If it wasn't for that, Leane would barely have gotten any of the chain changed.  After all, as fast as Egwene was, she still got caught as soon as she started.

[Majsju]

Regarding who's beating Sheriam, I used to have Delana as my #1 suspect, but after KOD I am more inclined to look at Lelaine. Not because I think Lelaine would be black, but because she is maneuvering for power, as she pretty much admits herself.

[Guest cw]

I think Lelaine was always my prime suspect.  Something in how Egwene was referred to as "that girl" or some similar phrase.

 

I do not think Lelaine is Black.  Where the Black Ajah is concerned, I think Lelaine is like Elaida.  The both fervently hope that as long as she refuses to accept their existance, the Black Ajah will simply go away.