What to do with captive Forsaken?

[Shaidar]

About the poll: persuade to turn logically means trying to make Forsaken turn via pure reason; using Chair of Remorse and/or other forms of mental pressure is what it says.

 

4) and 5) means first trying to persuade logically, and it that fails, 2) or 3),

 

6) and 7) means first trying to persuade logically, if that fails trying other forms of mental pressure - if that fails, 2) or 3).

 

8) and 9) means arguing both logically AND utilizing other forms of mental pressure in order (e.g. the Chair) so as to increase the chances the turn will be genuine, if it doesn't work - then 2) or 3).

 

10) means trying to convert them until they crack or have a last reunion meet with Slayer.

 

I am not including options like physical torture because it would obviously be ineffective at persuading them to convert genuinely. It can play a role though in 2) (extracting info). Actually anything goes under 2). Persuading them to turn successfully, following which they reveal lots of things, and then disposing of them, also goes under 2).

 

I am not including things like: persuade to turn logically; if NOT, 1) (execution). Quite obviously if you've got the time and patience to try to persuade them to turn, you can spare some time trying to extract info from them.

 

---------

 

 

The "Torture and the Forsaken" thread a while back made me think of what is the optimal course to follow if a Forsaken is captured or surrenders.

 

There are several options.

 

a) dispose of them immediately, then you certainly don't have to worry about them escaping (like Moggy). Unfortunately you don't learn anything and are unlikely to use balefire (Rand and Co. don't know about Dark transmigration of souls), so they might pop up in a new, unknown body later.

 

b) cajole or torture for information and then vanish them into the night and fog. Unfortunately, anything they say about Dark strategy will have to be treated with a pinch of salt. They are unlikely to reveal any really useful OP methods, feigning ignorance - you have to really know what you're looking for if you want something out of them. Since Rand has LTT with all his knowledge, a captive female Forsaken (say, Semirhage) would be very useful right now - for instance, to show the women how to do Deathgates and Fire Blossoms and other nifty anti-Trolloc tricks.

 

c) a public trial. Is not a good idea. Firstly, how do you even prove that they are a Forsaken. Secondly, if so, so what? No justice system in Randland has the mechanisms to deal with them. Unless you can specifically tie them to a particular murder or some such, and unless they explicitly confess to whatever it is they're being charged with (I doubt there's much of a notion about 'crimes against humanity' or genocide - these are 20th century inventions), a guilty verdict would not be fair and would serve no purpose in affirming the Light's moral superiority. Nor will it have an effect on deterrance, since no DF is really in that position...and if they were, they wouldn't be able to quit anyway.

 

If the trial is fair, they will be acquitted for lack of evidence. You're screwed. If they're found guilty, then the trial would be unfair. You have moral superiority. They're found guilty because the unthinkable happened and the Forsaken confessed voluntarily. You have lost a great asset that could have substantially raised the Light's chances of victory (presumably the death penalty would be used). As I see this it's lose-lose-lose.

 

d) persuade or pressure to switch sides. While genuine reorientation is preferred, any way a dependency could be installed upon the Forsaken on their captors is acceptable. Asmodean's repentance was not genuine, but in reality it mattered little when his former colleagues considered him a traitor who was to be killed on sight. This is an unbreakable dependency and it would make sense from a selfish self-preserving viewpoint for the Forsaken to do their utmost to help Rand win. Also, such a Forsaken would be a valuable asset who'd be worth assigning background minders to - a couple of Aiel - for protection (and surveillance - double-crossing would always remain a possibility, albeit less if the switch appears genuine).

 

Going about 'persuading' is tricky. The a'dam can be useful (especially for cajoling), but it suppresses rather than erases the pre-existing personality - after a period of freedom, it asserts itself with more force than ever. Obviously the 'black cords' have to be cut as they don't do any good. The Chair of Remorse sounds very useful, though getting hold of is impossible at the moment (although, could they use in TAR?) Binders can be useful, like an a'dam, but only for control purposes, and besides they can be circumvented. Plus, several of the older Forsaken - like Semirhage - would probably fall dead if both forced to swear on the Rod and cut off from their immortality. Logic is another very powerful weapon, and should in theory work against anyone but Ishamael. The Forsaken aren't dumb, in general, but they do have a very curious suspension of disbelief when it comes to believing in the DO. This area should be probed.

 

And now there's also the matter of how the Forsaken are captured.

 

1) captured in battle. This has happened with Asmodean, Semirhage and (twice) with Moghedien. They must be treated with utmost caution.

 

In this case several scenarios are possible. One is where the Forsaken, unvoluntarily, become critically dependent on Rand and Co (as with Asmo) because Lanfear kindly told the other Chosen he was a turncoat. Thus d) was the appropriate approach, though I'd have given more thought to his security (and his temptation to slip away and hide himself amongst ordinary people, away from the Shadow's avenging hand). Besides, if he knows he has a bodyguard, the temptation to slip away can be reduced, as well as the knowledge that those bodyguards aren't there just to protect him.

 

In the case of Moggy, they failed utterly at making her dependent. In a sense, they actually became dependent on her - for their petty 'discoveries', for their long delay in keeping her (which makes it difficult for them to hand her over to the AS) and for their inability to dispose of her. This is a no-no. Either you do b) and get it over with, or you can throw in d) - (in their case, it would have been limited to logic plus threats to hand her over). You can always get back to b). Egwene was much more effective with her, but again neglected the watcher/bodyguard bit.

 

Now we have Semirhage. They have the resources to give her a strong guard to prevent escape (abetted, maybe, by Elza) and protect her from Grey Men. d) is applicable. It can go on concurrently with b).

 

2) captured and agrees/begs to turn. In this case d) should almost always be tried, unless the situation is dire and you have to, say, trust the Forsaken to not harm or betray you. In that case, a).

 

3) agrees to turn voluntarily. This is a very unlikely scenario, because it will almost certainly be genuine. I certainly don't see the Chosen doing this on purpose to 'work from within', because it's just extremely risky, nor can I see them successfully maintaining the act. Then again, what with ta'veren, this is completely possible.

 

In this case there is absolutely no need (and quite heartless besides) to get rid of them, so they can be invited to participate in Light strategies at high levels, after vetting. Strong protection should be assigned to them, as they would quickly become a prime target for Slayer and Co.

[Tyrell]

"Hold this Binder and make the following oath or I'm going to balefire you"

 

Should do the trick.

[wvlr]

"Hold this Binder and make the following oath or I'm going to balefire you"

 

Should do the trick.

 

That is the exact one that I was thinking - except that once I got all the info I could from them - I would still Balefire them - probably using the CK - so far back that they probably would not even have been sealed up in the Bore.

 

Question - If you get info from a Forsaken and THEN Balefire them - do you loose the info?

[RobertAlexWillis]

If you get info from a Forsaken and THEN Balefire them - do you loose the info?

 

No.  As Metallica said: The Memory Remains.

[Great Lord of the Dark]

thats good and bad right? whatever. I would kill them because whatever info you would get from them might be useless because they know the power of the Great Lord and will lie every time.

[Saidar]

I picked two.

 

And what is the Chair of Remorse?

[Luckers]

Its a ter'angreal in the Tower that makes you live your worst fears. It was used to show thieves terrible repercussions of their actions, thus gaining the name. We've seen it used on Talene in Winter's Heart.

[CUBAREY]

Quote"

 

thats good and bad right? whatever. I would kill them because whatever info you would get from them might be useless because they know the power of the Great Lord and will lie every time.

 

Wll you have them take an oath not to lie first. Then they either commit suicide by choking when trying to lie, tell you the truth or refuse to answer at all.  Balefiring them is not a good idea, you still remember there statements but since they stop existing prior to making the statement a paradox is created and the weaving of time (reality?) begins to unravel. simply slit their throats after you got the information you want. Its simpler, a bit more painful, and Cadsuanne will not slap your face! 8)

[Shaidar]

"Hold this Binder and make the following oath or I'm going to balefire you"

 

Should do the trick.

 

That's a good solution.

 

Balefiring them is not a good idea, you still remember there statements but since they stop existing prior to making the statement a paradox is created and the weaving of time (reality?) begins to unravel. simply slit their throats after you got the information you want.

 

Won't make much of a difference. Remember that reality only began to unravel in the War of Power after a year of unrestricted balefire use by thousands of channelers that destroyed whole cities ;)

 

But if you kill them conventionally, presumably they'll get ressurected by the DO.

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

Won't make much of a difference. Remember that reality only began to unravel in the War of Power after a year of unrestricted balefire use by thousands of channelers that destroyed whole cities

 

But if you kill them conventionally, presumably they'll get ressurected by the DO.

 

Do we know whether the effects of balefire on the Weave of Time disapate over time, or are their effects cumulative? You also have to consider that you may have to use balefire at TG.

 

Since, none of the "good guys" in Randland know that the DO is resurrecting the Choosen why would they risk a slap from Cadsuanne.

[wvlr]

Since, none of the "good guys" in Randland know that the DO is resurrecting the Choosen why would they risk a slap from Cadsuanne.

 

I personally would say - in relation to Semi - To get Rand's Blooming Hand and eyesight BACK!!!!

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

I personally would say - in relation to Semi - To get Rand's Blooming Hand and eyesight BACK!!!!

 

Well since it would take some time to get the oath Rod (only way to assure that Semi's answers a true) and presuming it will tahe some time to get all the useful information out of her, then you will probably have to use either the Chaddon Kal or the Sword that is not a sword to male a large enough bolt of balefire to burn her life-thread back far enough to get Rand's hand back. Come to think of it a delay of several hours from the time of her attack would still necessitate the use of a rather powerful angreal if not one of the two mentioned above, in any case you would have a rather serious paradox and tearing of the Weave of Time. Rand seems rather unconcerned about the loss of his hand to contemplate a major use of balefire.

[krelianzg]

I've said it before and I'll say it again;

 

Have Logain bond Semirhage.

 

 

[Shaidar]

Do we know whether the effects of balefire on the Weave of Time disapate over time, or are their effects cumulative?

 

Quite obviously they dissipate over time. Otherwise, the world would have long ago ceased to exist.

 

There's a problem though. (Going off-topic a bit). People say memories remain after balefire usage. But how come, if you can get a hand back, etc, or come to life again (like Mat/Avi/Asmo). After all, memories are physical info too. Meh.

 

Secondly, and more pertinent to the question at hand, IIRC the only person in Rand's group who can weave balefire is Rand himself. But if he balefires Semmy, as far as I understand, he won't get the hand back. (When he balefired Rahvin, his wounds didn't disappear). (Hmm, maybe that's the memory explanation too?) So he'd have to teach Logain balefire, and within the next few minutes, for Logain to stand a chance of weaving balefire strong enough to fry Semi back to before when she blew off Rand's hand. That's assuming Logain can learn the new weave that fast.

[Shaidar]

Have Logain bond Semirhage.

 

For some reason I'm not that sure he'll agree...but a good idea in principle.

[Shard]

Secondly, and more pertinent to the question at hand, IIRC the only person in Rand's group who can weave balefire is Rand himself. But if he balefires Semmy, as far as I understand, he won't get the hand back. (When he balefired Rahvin, his wounds didn't disappear). (Hmm, maybe that's the memory explanation too?) So he'd have to teach Logain balefire, and within the next few minutes, for Logain to stand a chance of weaving balefire strong enough to fry Semi back to before when she blew off Rand's hand. That's assuming Logain can learn the new weave that fast.

 

I've heard the theory that those wounds were caused by another source, ie Asmo's killer, and thus why the wounds didn't dissapear.

[DuDZiK]

Waiting to extract info from them is a dangerous game. You will always want to learn more from them, but there is the danger that they may be rescued a la Moghedien(sp?). So I'd say learn of any immediate plots or whatever, and any important info on them, but set a deadline to execute them asap no matter how much you have found out. They don't really need to learn any new weaves, given how much was extracted from Moghedien already.

 

The other issue is how they would kill them; no one but the Forsaken and the Dark One knows that the only true way to kill one of them is with balefire, else the DO will just ressurect them again.

[RobertAlexWillis]

(When he balefired Rahvin, his wounds didn't disappear).

 

That was because he got the wounds in Tel'aran'rhiod, and balefire's effects are altered, somewhat, in Tel'aran'rhiod.

 

This is per Jordan at various signings.  It is referenced in the encyclopaedia-wot, but irritatingly, no source is given. 

 

I still found one though.  ;D

 

Joel Gilmore went to see RJ at a book signing in Australia (21 September, 1999), and here's what he found out:

 

    I got an answer to the Rahvin/balefire/T'A'R question - when someone is BFed, the constructs they make in T'A'R do not disappear, but instead fade away slowly over time. There are lots of weird effects associated with T'A'R and balefire, such as the way the world flickers after balefire is used. I asked him just generally about it, and then he jumped straight in, gave the answer, then used the Rand and the fish example.

 

http://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq//1_dark/1.1_forsaken1/1.1.6_asmo.html

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Sorry.  I forgot to finish the above post with a conclusion.

 

The conclusion is that Rand would indeed have gotten his hand back and undone the damage to his eyes, if he or someone else had balefired Semirhage fairly quickly after the incident ... and with a decent amount of strength.  Moiraine claimed that she could only remove a few seconds from the Pattern ... it seems unlikely that Rand, without using an angreal or sa'angreal, can remove more than a few hours.  He threw everything he had at Rahvin, and yet all the Trollocs Rahvin had brought into Caemlyn that day were still there.

 

So, unless the next POV we get from Rand is barely a few hours after the last one (highly unlikely) then balefiring Semirhage to get his hand back is off the table.

 

Really, it was off the table from the start.  Not only does he not care that he got his hand blown off (which is a sign of serious mental trouble) but he couldn't kill Lanfear to save himself and two women he cared deeply about ... do you honestly think he can do it to Semirhage?  Nope.

 

As to how to kill them, I imagine that any Forsaken would be severed and then hung.  As others have pointed out, the Light is unaware of the Dark One's ability to transmigrate souls, and so that will not enter any calculations they make.

 

But, again, I have a feeling that Semirhage is not long for this world, in any case. 

[aevogt]

Execution seems to me to be a bad option right from the start. 

 

The DO can snag their souls, transmigrate them into a new body and fairly soon you will have a fresh forsaken, one that you won't even recognise until she's carving her name across your stomach.  If I remember correctly, the DO can redo a BF'd soul if he reacts in time.  Now that severing can be Healed, that's not a very good option either.

 

How about an a'dam that has been converted to Cuendillar.  Unless Moridin shows up personally to use the TP on it, my thinking is that it's not coming off any time soon.  Not only that, I doubt even a Forsaken could withstand being broken with an a'dam, provided enough time was devoted to it.  Make someone think they are being beaten with razor wire 24/7 for a week and if their mind survives, they'll beg you to bind them.  Make sure one of the oaths is that they must refuse (with force if necessary) any attempt to remove the bindings.  Also, they must not place themselves in danger to prevent intentional suicide.  HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

There are rules to war but the Forsaken don't follow them so I say screw 'em.  You're not going to win this one by being polite, as it were.  Ordinary dark friends might, MIGHT, be shown some mercy, but in the words or Aragorn, "Show them no mercy, for you shall recieve none"

 

 

[Darth_Andrea]

I say if any of them survive the last battle this is what should be done.

 

Super shield all who survive and make the men dig toilet pits for the rest of their lives and put the women to work as Pole Dancers in Tar`volon's taverns. That will teach them a lesson *snickers*

 

 

 

[glow=green,1,500]Darth_Andrea[/glow]

 

 

 

 

[wvlr]

Well Caddy is with Rand and she is neither affilliated with the Rebals of Elida.    She knows how to travel, Plus she does not take "NO" for an answer very well.    Not that I can remember anyone telling her "NO".    So I would send her back to the Tower to get the OR ASAP and have Semi swear on it Immediately - removing and DO oaths at the same time.  They have plenty of A'dams so getting her to swear should not be all that hard.

 

This all should be done ASAP no mater WHAT they decide to do with her - other than Immediate Execution.

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

Well Caddy is with Rand and she is neither affilliated with the Rebals of Elida.    She knows how to travel, Plus she does not take "NO" for an answer very well.    Not that I can remember anyone telling her "NO".    So I would send her back to the Tower to get the OR ASAP and have Semi swear on it Immediately - removing and DO oaths at the same time.  They have plenty of A'dams so getting her to swear should not be all that hard.

 

 

Do you really think that Elaida would let anyone take the Oath Rod from the White Tower? Not even RJ himself could do that. :D Moreover, even if Elaida agrred what would happen? Elaida would order someone to fetch it and they would report that its missing (Remember the Black Ajah Hunters have taken it and are using it in the sub-basements.) Come to think of it it would make for quite a hilarious scene. ;D

[RobertAlexWillis]

Execution seems to me to be a bad option right from the start.

 

The DO can snag their souls, transmigrate them into a new body and fairly soon you will have a fresh forsaken, one that you won't even recognise until she's carving her name across your stomach.  If I remember correctly, the DO can redo a BF'd soul if he reacts in time.  Now that severing can be Healed, that's not a very good option either.

 

Thats all well and good, but since none of the "good" people know that, they can't very well make decisions based on that information.

 

So I would send her back to the Tower to get the OR ASAP and have Semi swear on it Immediately - removing and DO oaths at the same time.

 

Actually, if they had a little imagination, they would realize that they can make their own Oath Rod any time they choose, wherever they choose ... just go to Tel'aran'rhiod.

 

Jordan confirmed that a "created" Oath Rod in Tel'aran'rhiod can release an Aes Sedai from the Oaths ... which means it can bind Oaths into someone as well.  (http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=96 )

[Tyrell]

Oh now that is *very* interesting.