YUCK!!! As distastful as it seems - IN DEFENSE OF ELIDA!

[wvlr]

OK - As you should be able to tell by the title - I am not her biggest fan, but I will try  -  yes really TRY!  -  to give her a fair view.

 

She was always strong willed, domineering and more that a little - shall I say  - unlikable, but other than that (which can be said about a lot of AS) was she really all that bad?

 

Yes, she de-throned Suan and had her stilled but I don't see that as completely unreasonable.    Even in Suan's & Moraine's POV's (I think)we heard them mention that they were walking a fine line that could result in just that happening.    So it did happen - I don't so much blame Elida for that as Suan for not being in real control of the WT.    Both security wise and getting the Sitters on the correct path as to how the RD needed to be handled. 

 

I really do not see Elida's actions as being all that unreasonable until she "met with" Padden Fain.    Did he "Taint" her?    I am going just by memory here but I think that he did.    So did all her "off the deep end" actions really start then?

[RobertAlexWillis]

Padan Fain did indeed brush her with his taint ... he thinks as much to himself in LoC ch 28.  So, a part of her actions can be explained by that taint.

 

Her actions in deposing Siuan, however, were entirely illegal, and driven primarily by ambition.  If she had been genuinely shocked by Siuan's dealings with Rand, and opposed on principle working with any man who can channel, then her actions would have a degree of integrity, if misguided integrity.  However, since she took Siuan down for being willing to work with Rand, and then went on to attempt to do so herself, it was entirely hypocritical, as well as illegal.

 

It seems clear that Elaida is not a Darkfriend, but she is unscrupulous and hypocritical.  Also, she seems to be surprisingly incompetent.  I find that I really have nothing good to say about her other than "at least she's not intentionally supporting the Shadow".

[DemandredFO]

Ok, Elida is a moron, but, there are several things to consider:

a.  Padan fain and his taint.

B.  getting manipulated by Mesaana

C.  getting manipulated by Alviarin

After consider the case for and against Elida I find her guilty and sentence her to be stilled and executed.  Eliada is powerhungry, she doesn't believe the Forsaken are free and doesn't believe in the black ajah.  She has no redeeming qualities.

[CUBAREY]

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Her actions in deposing Siuan, however, were entirely illegal, and driven primarily by ambition.  If she had been genuinely shocked by Siuan's dealings with Rand, and opposed on principle working with any man who can channel, then her actions would have a degree of integrity, if misguided integrity.  However, since she took Siuan down for being willing to work with Rand, and then went on to attempt to do so herself, it was entirely hypocritical, as well as illegal.

 

 

Actually even the Rebel Hall admitted that Siuan was legally deposed (just barely, but hey, meeting legal requirements is technical, she was legally deposed). Second Elida's used not so much Siuan's working with Rand as the legal excuse instead Elida acknowledged that Rand was the Dragon Reborn but she insisted that Siuan's treason was letting him run loose (which is what she did) and not making sure that Rand was brought to the White Tower until TG. Seen in this light Elida's later actions are consistent.

 

Now Elida is a fool, has nofeel for deplomacy, her worldview is twisted and her actions caused the White Tower to split so she deserves stilling but its unfair to claim she deposed Siuan simply because she disliked ger or was jealous of her.

[CUBAREY]

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Her actions in deposing Siuan, however, were entirely illegal, and driven primarily by ambition.  If she had been genuinely shocked by Siuan's dealings with Rand, and opposed on principle working with any man who can channel, then her actions would have a degree of integrity, if misguided integrity.  However, since she took Siuan down for being willing to work with Rand, and then went on to attempt to do so herself, it was entirely hypocritical, as well as illegal.

 

 

Actually even the Rebel Hall admitted that Siuan was legally deposed (just barely, but hey, meeting legal requirements is technical, she was legally deposed). Second Elida's used not so much Siuan's working with Rand as the legal excuse instead Elida acknowledged that Rand was the Dragon Reborn but she insisted that Siuan's treason was letting him run loose (which is what she did) and not making sure that Rand was brought to the White Tower until TG. Seen in this light Elida's later actions are consistent.

 

Now Elida is a fool, has no feel for deplomacy, her worldview is twisted and her actions caused the White Tower to split so she deserves stilling but its unfair to claim she deposed Siuan simply because she disliked or was jealous of her.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Actually even the Rebel Hall admitted that Siuan was legally deposed (just barely, but hey, meeting legal requirements is technical, she was legally deposed).

 

The Rebel Hall had to pretend that Elaida didn't violate the law, because the law she violated is the same law they were getting ready to violate, that is, that at least one Sitter from each Ajah be present and vote to either depose or elect and Amyrlin.  Both Amyrlins currently sitting gained their position illegally.  But, laws are silent in the face of arms.

 

Now Elida is a fool, has no feel for deplomacy, her worldview is twisted and her actions caused the White Tower to split so she deserves stilling but its unfair to claim she deposed Siuan simply because she disliked or was jealous of her.

 

Sorry, but that's exactly what I'm claiming.  She is thinking to herself, as she begins planning the deposing of Siuan, that she should have been elected Amyrlin years ago, and would have been if she hadn't been busy in Andor.  She broke the Tower with an illegal coup d'etat, for her own personal gain.

 

If she had genuinely wanted only to do what was right for the Tower, and make sure Rand was on a leash, she would not have voted with the rest of Hall to support Siuan in dealing with Rand, and then illegally gone behind her back and deposed her the same day.  She would have at least tried once to convince Siuan of her plans to leash Rand and control him.  She didn't.  She got a seat as a Sitter for the exclusive purpose of undercutting Siuan and pulling her down.  Rand al'Thor was an excuse.

[CUBAREY]

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The Rebel Hall had to pretend that Elaida didn't violate the law, because the law she violated is the same law they were getting ready to violate, that is, that at least one Sitter from each Ajah be present and vote to either depose or elect and Amyrlin.  Both Amyrlins currently sitting gained their position illegally.  But, laws are silent in the face of arms.

 

No. Tower law was not violated in deposing Suain.  Tower law may have been violated in raising Elaida to Amerlyn but thats a different question. Two acts one was legal the other probably not. Second, "Rebel Hall had to pretend"? Where they lying to Siuan when they refused to acknowledge that she was still Amerlyn?

 

Third, both iuan and Moiraine were quite concerned that if their plot was discovered Siuan would be deposed and both would be stilled. They did so because they knew that they were commiting treason.  The other Sitters dod not join Elaida because of jealousy or spite. Did Elida have ulterrior miotives of course, was she correct in seeing Siuan as a traitor--yes. Siuan and Moraine did what they had to do but they knew that that entailed breaking Tower law. As the Wiseone's would say they knew that their acts were forbidden, did them because they were necessary, and paid the price for their actions.

[DemandredFO]

You should not claim that Eliada had the best intentions as why she deposed Siuan.  She COVETED the AmIrlyn seat.  She used Siuan's supposed treachery as a cloak to hide behind.  Siuan did what she did because she knew that Rand was apt to be gentled.

[RobertAlexWillis]

No. Tower law was not violated in deposing Suain.  Tower law may have been violated in raising Elaida to Amerlyn but thats a different question.

 

My point nevertheless remains valid.  Although the desposing of Siuan may have been technically legal, the raising of Elaida was not ... making Elaida's actions illegal.  By the same token, Egwene's ascension is also illegal ...

 

In fact, since as part of the action deposing Siuan, Elaida included the ex post facto dissolution of the Blue Ajah (in order to grant the appearance of legitimacy to her acquisition of the Amyrlin Seat), it could be said that her plan to depose Siuan included illegalities, above and beyond those associated directly with her election to the Amyrlin Seat.

 

And finally ... we're talking about her motivations.  Since she planned to do precisely what she was deposing Siuan for, that is, treating with the Dragon Reborn, a man who can channel, her charges were specious and hypocritical.  In fact, the charges she leveled publicly were false ... as we'll see in dealing with the question of treason.

 

They did so because they knew that they were commiting treason.

 

Siuan and Moiraine knew that some Sisters would view what they did as treason.  However, would you care to name the law they violated?  The Hall admitted, before deposing her, that Siuan had indeed found the true Dragon Reborn.  If she had committed treason by working with him, why did they not publish that as the reason for her arrest and stilling?

 

Instead, they concocted a deceitful charge (actually, a complete lie ... I'm not sure how they did it, unless Alviarin risked exposure, or it was passed down third hand to alter the wording somehow) that Siuan aided the escape of the False Dragon Mazrim Taim.

 

As the Wiseone's would say they knew that their acts were forbidden, did them because they were necessary, and paid the price for their actions.

 

Their actions were not forbidden ... unless you can name the relevant law?  Elaida publicly acknowledged Rand as the Dragon ... Siuan had broken no laws by simply identifying him and putting a Sister (Moiraine) near him.  She had not committed the Tower to any course of action, either publicly or privately to Rand.  As those who deposed her knew ... which is why they concocted a false charge for public display.

 

If Elaida's concern were simply the good of the Tower, or even primarily the good of the Tower, she would have made at least one attempt to work with Siuan.  She did not.  Her motivations were personal ambition, and her illegal actions filled to the top with hypocrisy and deceit.

[CUBAREY]

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She had not committed the Tower to any course of action, either publicly or privately to Rand.  As those who deposed her knew ... which is why they concocted a false charge for public display.

 

She let Rand round around free without even an A.S. in tow to advise him. There may not be a specific prohibition against letting a male channeler run free (much less the Dragon Reborn), but laws dealing with treason are not worded in specific terms. American treason laws for instance are worded as "giving and and comfort" to an enemy.

 

And I repeat her intentions were not the same as Siuan's, she never intended to have Rand running around free. Her intent was to have Rand brought to the White Tower. Its a big difference, she acknowledge Rand as the Dragon Reborn because he was, he was (in her eyes and the eyes of all but three A.S. at the time)a danger that needed to be controlled physicaqlly by the White Tower (in the White Tower) and to purposely let him go his own way was seen as treason by just about all A.S. at the time.

 

Elaida then usurped power and broke tower law by having herself named Amerlyn without the blue (maybe). Legally when you rebel against the duly constituted authority you lose your rights under the old regime instantaniously with your rebellion. If the blues (and other rebels) viewed Siuan's deposing as technically legal, but Eliada's ascension as illegal then they still would have viewed the duly instituted Hall of Sitters as the Dejure legitimate authority. The blues however, and other rebels instead rebelled and attempted to free Siuan from her captivety. This caused the Tower to split. Thus they all committed treason! Therefore the illegality of the ex-post facto bannining of the blue Ajah is not that clear cut.

 

If she had committed treason by working with him, why did they not publish that as the reason for her arrest and stilling?

 

Come on RAW, we all know that all A.S. belived that announcing the existance of the Dragon Beborn would have some seriouis consequences. And that revealing that the Tower had dealt with him would have caused most of the Randland rulers to side with the Whitecloaks.  No A.S. (except maybe Moiraine) viewed the disclosure as helping their cause.

 

 

[vinay87]

It would have been so much easier if the world had been divided into good guys and Darkfriends.... then we could say that Elaida was a Darkfriend. But we can't.

I've sympathised with Elaida, but not so much after Dumai's Wells. No one locks the Lord Dragon in a box, HEAR ME?!

Yet, she was scared. Scared that he didn't know what he was doing. Siuan and Moiraine (and Cadsuane) to an extent, know that the Dragon had to be set free to learn, grown and pull the peoples of the world to him. Elaida thinks that he should be locked away till Tarmon Gaiden comes and when it comes, he must be sent to Shayol Ghul to inevitably win, and die. As if any prophecy said that with the Dragon, the pattern always wins. Ishamael said it himself, though whether we believe him is another thing, the Wheel weaves out many Patterns, in some the Dragon wins, and the world is well, in others, the Dragon dies and still the world is well. In some others, the Dragon goes over to the Dark one and the Lord of Chaos rules.

Elaida must understand that. I think she might, during aMoL. She just might. That would be a nice turn of events. Yet she has her days as the Flame of Tar Valon numbered. Maybe not stilling, I don't see how stilling can even be a threat now that it can be healed, but still.

[BKVMC]

Elaida is a  fool  who misread her own foretellings  and set  a  course  of action to  fulfill her foretellings  incorrectly  she bungled  but will never admit it till its  shown to  her with no wiggle room and when it is it will break  her  if she isnt stilled and dead  when she finds out.

[RobertAlexWillis]

She let Rand round around free without even an A.S. in tow to advise him.

 

Um ... no, she had been planning for 20 years how to find him with an Aes Sedai friend and ally.  Moiraine Damodred.  Remember?  The first three books?

 

And I repeat her intentions were not the same as Siuan's, she never intended to have Rand running around free. Her intent was to have Rand brought to the White Tower. Its a big difference, she acknowledge Rand as the Dragon Reborn because he was, he was (in her eyes and the eyes of all but three A.S. at the time)a danger that needed to be controlled physicaqlly by the White Tower (in the White Tower) and to purposely let him go his own way was seen as treason by just about all A.S. at the time.

 

From a legal standpoint, they were exactly the same.  They both intended to keep a man who could channel, ungentled, to use at Tarmon Gaidon.  The only difference is the method they were going to use to control him.  Are you seriously claiming that Elaida's approach to Rand was mandated by Tower Law?!?!  Come on. 

 

But hey, maybe it is!  Cite it for me ....

 

Come on RAW, we all know that all A.S. belived that announcing the existance of the Dragon Beborn would have some seriouis consequences.

 

Rumors of the Stone's fall had reached Tar Valon ahead of Moiraine's note ... the existence of the Dragon was all the talk in the various nations, ever since the events at Falme.  Thats the flimsiest excuse I've ever heard ... besides which, the law doesn't care what the "serious consequences" of an announcement are.

 

The fact is, Siuan broke no laws (unless you can name one ... I'm still waiting).  The accusations on the basis of which she was deposed (assisting the escape of Mazrim Taim) were not only lies, the people who brought them knew they were lies.  It is pure hypocrisy, and we're talking about Elaida's character here.  Her actions, which in the absolute best possible interpretation bent the law beyond recognition and perverted its spirit beyond redemption, were rooted in jealousy and cold ambition.  She broke the Tower for her own gain, allowed herself to be manipulated by the Shadow, opened herself to the influence of Padan Fain, all because in her megalomania, she couldn't deal with someone else having power at this critical juncture, and she felt snubbed.

[Darth_Andrea]

Elaida was the perefect person to allow for the breaking of the tower. The shadow wanted control of it and got it because a power hungry woman was jelling over Siuan. She suspected something that if she had handeled properly might still have seen Siuan deposed but not the tower broken. But because of her ambition and her greed for personal power she turned to Alvarian who was influential in the hall (and the leader of the Black Ajah) to help her build her plot. That one choice caused the death of those people on that farm and that novice. (I am convinced Alviarian did that personaly) Not to mention the breaking of the tower. Even Bonwin hadn't screwed up so badly. Tar`valen is in such a state that 3 white cloaks a Arangatang and a French poodle could take the city and hold it. And when you boil it all down it's Elaida's fualt.

 

 

 

[glow=green,1,500]Darth_Andrea[/glow]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CUBAREY]

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Um ... no, she had been planning for 20 years how to find him with an Aes Sedai friend and ally.  Moiraine Damodred.  Remember?  The first three books?

 

And then in Book Two after a 5 minute talk from Miraine and a two minute audience with Rand she lets him leave unescourted. @0 years of planning and she sets it aside after a few minutes.

 

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From a legal standpoint, they were exactly the same.

 

No they were not. The Dragon reborn is necessary to fight TG all A.S. believe this. Only Siuan and Moiraine at the time, believed that letting a male channeler and a tav-ern loose on the world.

(As an aside I got my legal training at Boston University School of Law, where did you get yours. :P :P)

 

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Rumors of the Stone's fall had reached Tar Valon ahead of Moiraine's note ... the existence of the Dragon was all the talk in the various nations, ever since the events at Falme.  Thats the flimsiest excuse I've ever heard ... besides which, the law doesn't care what the "serious consequences" of an announcement are.

 

Rumors, not proof, and definately not proof that he was being aided by the Amerlyn. Moreover, The White Tower was not a liberal democracy with constitutional protections for freedom of the press.  Nothing in Tower Law, Custom, or tradition required that they state the primary "real" reason for the Amerlyn's deposition.

 

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The fact is, Siuan broke no laws (unless you can name one ... I'm still waiting). 

 

In a POV Siuan states that if the facts were to come out even Leane(sp?) would turn her in for deposing and stilling. Siuan knew that what she was doing would be viewed as treason.  In your words the literal wording of Tower law may not term it treason but the "spirit" definately would.

 

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It is pure hypocrisy

 

All A.S. are hypocrites. They mislead while they technically uphold the oath afainst lying. They bypass the prohibition against using the power to kill non-darkfriends by intentionally putting themselves in harms way. They obay the prohibition against making a weapon for a man but permit Warders to use powerrought swords made prior to the breaking. And that's just the "good" A.S. that seem to be on Rand's side.  That Elaida is a hypocrite only makes her an A.S.  As to Elaida's actions breaking the Tower, I poinnt out that Two Red Amerlyns had been previously deposed the Red's did not rebelled (at least we have no proof of it).  The Tower split because the blues and others could not take the fact that Elaida would be the new Amerlyn. That's why Cadsuanne's bunch while having a truly low opinion of Elaida look down upon the Rebels (they broke the Tower with TG in sight).

 

I agree that Elaida is a fool and a hypocrite.  So what, if you really dislike her have her assasinated (not an umcommen happening in Tower history). If you have to then pay the price then pay the price (at least that's what the wiseones's who actually try to keep honor)would say.  That the rebels were unwilling to do so shows that all A.S. are hypocrites and that the Tower's "unity" was more of an illusion then reality.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

And then in Book Two after a 5 minute talk from Miraine and a two minute audience with Rand she lets him leave unescourted. @0 years of planning and she sets it aside after a few minutes.

 

Not only did the Hall not know about that, but in actual fact, he was only without Aes Sedai companionship for less than a week.

 

No they were not. The Dragon reborn is necessary to fight TG all A.S. believe this. Only Siuan and Moiraine at the time, believed that letting a male channeler and a tav-ern loose on the world.

(As an aside I got my legal training at Boston University School of Law, where did you get yours. Tongue Tongue)

 

I don't care if you graduated summa cum laude from Harvard Law School, you still haven't quoted what law Siuan and Moiraine broke.  They were NOT leaving him loose ... Moiraine was with him at the time of Siuan's disclosure.  Only the method of control differed.

 

Nothing in Tower Law, Custom, or tradition required that they state the primary "real" reason for the Amerlyn's deposition.

 

Its still hypocritical.

 

In a POV Siuan states that if the facts were to come out even Leane(sp?) would turn her in for deposing and stilling. Siuan knew that what she was doing would be viewed as treason.

 

She was expressing doubts.  Leane kept following her after the details were known and she had been stilled.  Siuan and Moiraine were afraid (rightly so) that the fear of men channeling (ingrained for over 3000 years) would override both the letter and the spirit of the law, not to mention common sense.

 

All this said, we obviously disagree.  I find your points ... less than compelling, to put it mildly.  But, so be it.

[CUBAREY]

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I don't care if you graduated summa cum laude from Harvard Law School, you still haven't quoted what law Siuan and Moiraine broke.  They were NOT leaving him loose ... Moiraine was with him at the time of Siuan's disclosure.  Only the method of control differed.

 

First, for all they knew he would be alone until he got to Illian.  That Verin had secret plans of her own does not explain why they let Rand round around free.  You call it "control" others would say its an abdication of their responsibility.  In my experience most suuma cum laude graqduates of Harvard law school make good professors decent judges byt lousy lawyers.!! :o :o

 

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She was expressing doubts

She was expressing the belief that she would be stilled its a little bit more then doubt. Siuan unlike others knew the risk she was taking she believed the possibleprice well worth it. She at least was slightly less hypocritical then A.S. generally.

 

I agree that we disagree and find your arguments not compelling at all. ;D ;D

[RobertAlexWillis]

First, for all they knew he would be alone until he got to Illian.  That Verin had secret plans of her own does not explain why they let Rand round around free.  You call it "control" others would say its an abdication of their responsibility.  In my experience most suuma cum laude graqduates of Harvard law school make good professors decent judges byt lousy lawyers.!!

 

All of which is completely irrelevant to the question at hand, because we're talking about what Siuan could report to the Hall.  Siuan could still report, quite factually, that this young man had been guided by Aes Sedai from the moment they suspected who he was.  What she did report to the Hall, was that the Dragon Reborn had drawn Callandor, and there was already an Aes Sedai in place to guide him!  How is that "letting him run free"?  It is a way for her to attempt to control events.  It is a different method of controlling events than what Elaida would prefer ... but a method Aes Sedai had used on rulers for centuries.  Its astonishing to me that you buy Elaida's load of "treason" claptrap.  What Siuan did is only treason if Tower Law mandates that the Dragon Reborn be brought to Tar Valon and kept under shielded guard.  There is absolutely zero in the books to support that contention ... it would be ridiculous even for Aes Sedai.

 

But ... once again ... there is a way for you to prove me unequivocally wrong: tell me, what law did Siuan break?  You've done a marvelous job of ignoring that question ... because you cannot answer it, and neither could Elaida.  Trying to guide the Dragon Reborn is not treason ... which is why it was not the public reason given for Siuan's removal.  The Tower would not risk being exposed in a lie (after all, Siuan did not do what they claim) just to prevent information that was already spreading from spreading.  Even Elaida is not that dense.

 

In a thread which is addressing Elaida's character, I assert that she is not merely a hypocrite, but a law-breaking hypocrite, who is guilty of the very "crime" she brought Siuan down for ... grossly mishandling the Dragon Reborn, to the detriment of the Tower, the Aes Sedai, and the world.

[CUBAREY]

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You've done a marvelous job of ignoring that question ... because you cannot answer it, and neither could Elaida.

 

 

The rebel hall specificly found that Siuan was legally deposed. Possibly no "crime" need be proved evidence of mafeasence in office may be enough. You poo-poo the rebel hall's finding because it does not fit your argument it nevertheless quite compelling an argument for anyone wishing to examine whether Siuan's deposing was legal.

 

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In a thread which is addressing Elaida's character, I assert that she is not merely a hypocrite, but a law-breaking hypocrite, who is guilty of the very "crime" she brought Siuan down for ... grossly mishandling the Dragon Reborn, to the detriment of the Tower, the Aes Sedai, and the world.

 

In this I totally agree. Ultimately the price of failure is the executioners ax. But, that has little to do with law or the level of hypocracy and more to do with the law of the jungle.

[DuDZiK]

Okay... I'm pretty sure the White Tower does not have some law about the Amyrilin dealing with the Dragon Reborn.

 

What Siuan did was most likely not illegal at all, but as has been said througout the series, 'custom rules stronger than law in some cases'. The only real custom or precedence for this instance is that of previous Amyrlins being deposed for whatever reason. I would cite the instance of the Red Amyrlin trying to use Artur Hawkwing, for which she was deposed. This sounds alot like what Elaida did with Siuan, except she did it in a... questionable manner.

 

What Elaida did was secretly round up support against the Amyrlin, which by the way is treason, and then with her small group depose Siuan and then torture her to confirm her suspicions. Before that they only had suspicions and no proof, but Elaida's allies and the Black Ajah made sure that Elaida succeeded so they could split the tower and weaken it to prepare for TG. Instead of doing the proper thing, which would be to call a full hall and try Siuan according to legal custom, she used an essential loophole in the Tower's laws, violated the spirit of the law, in order to succeed in her goal and her ambitions. She may have used her 'suspicions' of Siuan as justifications to depose Siuan, but she had wanted to even before she began to suspect, and she suspected largely because she was looking for reason to suspect, and that was all driven by her jealousy with Siuan and her blind ambition.

[hurryupnwait]

Let's not forget the stress of being Amrylin is getting to Elaida.  Tarna's POV in KoD shows she's been hitting the booze pretty hard as of late.  Just what the Tower needs an drunken Amyrlin who does not have the best judgement sober.  RJ describes Elaida as a hard woman to the point of being possibly brittle.  All that hardness is going to shatter in AMoL. 

[DuDZiK]

Let's not forget the stress of being Amrylin is getting to Elaida.  Tarna's POV in KoD shows she's been hitting the booze pretty hard as of late.  Just what the Tower needs an drunken Amyrlin who does not have the best judgement sober.  RJ describes Elaida as a hard woman to the point of being possibly brittle.  All that hardness is going to shatter in AMoL. 

 

She has also gone through a great deal of manipulation and certain events and people have shaped her into a person less than admirable thereafter.

 

Alviarin and Mesaana tweeked her, and Alviarin outright browbeat her. Just like Rand's trust in people faded after people betrayed his trust, and become a darker person for it, so too has Elaida. Does that excuse her for what she did before all of this happened? No. I wouldn't even allow it to excuse her for what she does now.

[RobertAlexWillis]

The rebel hall specificly found that Siuan was legally deposed.

 

The rebel Hall also ignored both the letter and the spirit of the Law by raising Egwene, who was not Aes Sedai, to the Amyrlin Seat, without a Sitter from an Ajah they still recognize as existing (the Red).

 

The rebel Hall (or, more specifically, Sheriam's council, which was running things) used every cracked up, downright silly rationalization to circumvent the law illegally.  So, forgive me if I find their unsupported "finding" a load of Aes Sedai hogwash.  ::)

 

The rebel Hall had to accept Siuan's removal as legal, because they couldn't rally behind a living woman who was also stilled, or, after she was Healed, stood so low.  They had to find someone unconnected with the events of the split, someone not in the Tower at the time, who stood high in herself.  The rebel Hall's "finding" regarding Siuan's removal was purely a matter of practical politics, not the result of any trial or jurisprudence.

 

Elaida broke the law.

 

Egwene broke the law.

 

Whoever wins will re-write the law, ex post facto, not by virtue of correct jurisprudence, but by virtue of force of arms.

 

The only substantive difference is in their motivation.  Elaida was motivated by personal ambition.  Egwene is actually trying to save the Tower, and help save the world, from the Shadow.

 

Elaida brought false charges against the sitting Amyrlin Seat, as part of a conspiracy to have herself elevated illegally to the Amyrlin Seat.

[DuDZiK]

Egwene broke the law.

 

I can't really find any fault with Egwene for being named Amyrlin by the rebels. After all, she didn't have any say in the matter. The one thing you could say about her is that she went along with it; but to be honest, she is going about deposing Elaida in a much more positive and noble manner than Elaida did with Siuan. If one considers Egwene to be in the right about having Elaida deposed, and since we don't really know Tower law well enough to say if she is or isn't according to the law, then can it be said that she actually broke the law?

[CUBAREY]

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What Elaida did was secretly round up support against the Amyrlin, which by the way is treason, and then with her small group depose Siuan and then torture her to confirm her suspicions. Before that they only had suspicions and no proof, but Elaida's allies and the Black Ajah made sure that Elaida succeeded so they could split the tower and weaken it to prepare for TG. Instead of doing the proper thing, which would be to call a full hall and try Siuan according to legal custom, she used an essential loophole in the Tower's laws, violated the spirit of the law, in order to succeed in her goal and her ambitions. She may have used her 'suspicions' of Siuan as justifications to depose Siuan, but she had wanted to even before she began to suspect, and she suspected largely because she was looking for reason to suspect, and that was all driven by her jealousy with Siuan and her blind ambition.

 

Secretly rounding up support against the Amerlyn is not treason. Moreover, she got enough support to get the minimum vote to oust Siuan, this is neither treason nor illegal. Getting information through putting the deposed Amerlyn "the question" is ambiguous legally at worst. Elaida's illegality came when she was raised without a blue voting for her. If she had waited to get herself elected until after the torturing of Siuan and the rebels attempt to free her, then the rest of the Hall could of ruled the entire blue Ajah in open rebellion, suspended their right to have a Sitters and had a good legal argument for electing Elaida Amerlyn without a blue.  This failure cuopled with the Halls acquiesance in Elaida's banning of the blue gave the rebels the legal technicality to claim that Elaida's election was illegal and question the legitimacy of the Hall.

 

In addiution, I seriously doubt that the "Custom" surrounding the deposing of an Amerlyn requires that a full meeting of the Hall be called or that the Amerlyn be given the rights under anglo-american law to defend herself.  Dealings in the Hall seem to have two characteristics meeting the minimal requirements of the letter of the law and playing hardball politics.  The Hall is not a debating society and they are not goiverned by robert's Rules of Order.

 

Now I believe Elaida needs to be stilled, executed and demonized but not because she was a hypocrite, ambitous or a bit of a fool. Under that criteria there might be a brown stuck in a library or a white debating logic that might escape the executioners ax. elaida needs to be deposed because she made a bad situation(a Tower where the real power was in the Ajahs and Ajah jeolousies were barely under control) to a slplit in the Tower(between Tower and Rebel forces)and into almost total Ajah    warfare. She also mismanaged relations with the Dragon Reborn, her own ego blinded her to the real size of the Black Tower and the threat of the Black Ajah. And her deft handling of relations with Randland Rulers also was less then optimal. For these failures she deserves death.

 

While I find Siuan a much more sympathetic character, I think that if she had not been deposed her lack of coalition building and her penchent for secrecy would also have lead to disaster.  Siuan was also willing to admit that her actions objectively viewed might lead to her being stilled. She knew she was playing a dangerous game and was williong to take the risk. That she survived her stilling and did not accept her punishment goes to her hate of Elaida and her knowledge that Elaida would was totally out of her depth as Amerlyn. If someone else (Romanda, Cadsuanne) had been elevated Siuan would have still resented her fate but she would not had the fire that it took to finagle the position of influence she got with the Rebels.

 

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The only substantive difference is in their motivation.  Elaida was motivated by personal ambition.  Egwene is actually trying to save the Tower, and help save the world, from the Shadow.

 

Its quite clear that in her dellusions of grandure Elaida sincerely believed that she and her "talents" were essential to the Tower in the coming years. This sincerety should not save her from the AX but I do not doubt that she was led by her belief in her own greatness to justify her acts.  Egwene is a very flawed Amerlyn but her saving grace is that she learned humility from the Aiel and has her childhood sweetheart as the Dragon Reborn.  Now give her 200 or 250 years of experience and she could be a real force, but then again why wait we have Cadsuanne!