Who thinks Weiramon is a Dark friend?

[hurryupnwait]

I first started searching the ranks of Tairen High Lords for dark friend treachery after the first time I re-read the Great Hunt.  In the prologue from the pov of Bors we are shown that their is a High Ranking dark friend among the upper nobility of Tear:

 

He caught sight,under the edge of one dark robe, of the silver-worked boots of a High Lord of Tear.

 

I propose the man under that cloak at that gathering at Shayol Ghul was Weiramon.  While almost to a man the High Lords are capricious, and disloyal only one is also an almost constant thorn in Rand's side.  At Cairhien Weiramon is such an abrasive presence that He is sent back to Tear to command the invasion army meant for Tear, that is until Rand can spare Mat or Perrin to take command from him.

 

Unfortunately that does not happen.  So Weiramon is able to disobey orders to advance on the hillforts of Illian slowly.  He takes his horseman and leaves the foot soldiers behind.  As a result of this no doubt thousands of soldiers are killed by Sammael.

 

In Altara he takes his men off in a charge when they sould be on guard.  This results in Rand being nearly killed by unseen advancing Seanchan.  Later he4 is heard talking to Gedwyn (a later confirmed D/F) by Bertome Saighan:

 

Absorbed in one another, Weiramon and Gedwyn did not hear him riding up on them.  Gedwyn was idly playing with his reins, his face cold with contempt.  The Tairen was red-faced. "I don't care who you are," he was saying was saying to the black-coated man in a low, hard voice, spittle flying, "I won't take more risk without a command direct from the lips of-" Abruptly the pair became aware of Bertome and Weiramon's lips snapped shut.

 

Bertome goes on to see both men want to kill him on the spot.  Weiramon attempts a clumsy manipulation of Bertome using Colavaere's death.  Then when informed of nearby seanchan Weiramon tells Gedwyn "Kill whoever you wish, wherever you wish Gedwyn,I use the methods I use, and that's that!"

 

Of course we know later in that very same book Gedwyn attempts to kill Rand in the Sun Palace.

 

That is not the end of Weiramon's intigues if you will.  He is seen by Samitsu with Bertome again:

 

Who would have expected to see Bertome Saighan walking peacefully with Weiramon Saniago....Doubtless they were playing the Game of Houses, maneuvering for advantage.......

 

Maybe Weiramon's attempts at manipulation were not so unsuccessful after all.

 

Finally we have Weiramon rushing down to Tear when he hears of rebellion.  He attacks the rebels and almost manages to destroy all progress of the peace talks.

 

So is Weiramon really just an idiot that Rand cannot get rid of?   Or is he clever enough to look stupid and make constant mistakes without might I add getting himself killed, injured, or giving an excuse for being hanged by Rand?  I think it is the latter.

 

[CUBAREY]

All the evidence you produce goes to show Weriman is a "fool" not necessarily a high ranking darkfriend. Really all the Tearen highlords and Ladies have exhibited conduct indicative of their being Darkfriends. Could Weriman be a Darkfriend sure, but he would have to be a rather clever Darkfriend playing the "fool" to the hilt as a disguise for his true cunnung and rational evil intent.

[hurryupnwait]

that is exactly what I am trying to say. Weiramon is much more devious and insidious than given credit for.  Consider his argument with Gedwyn he is red-faced and snarling at him.  What other Tairen High Lord would do that.  They are terrified of the men of the Black Tower.  Weiramon is yelling and spitting at one.  A confirmed dark friend at that.  I believe that to be he knows that he himself is a high ranking d/f.  Mark my words when AMOL comes out Weiramon will be one of those rising out of there secret places.  RJ has repeatedly displayed the inept bumblings of Weiramon along with Rand's reaction to them.  "too stupid to leave behind, too powerful to shove aside,"  Therefore he keeps Weiramon close  or in a place he can be watched.  In spite of that Weiramon always finds a way to slip off unbeknownst to anyone and wreak havoc (see Illian hillforts, attacking Rebels in Tear). 

 

Yet as I said he gets thousands killed through his botching of things and manages to not only survive but do so without even dirtying his own armor or cloak (see battles against the Seanchan in Altara).  He also manages to look dumb enough to not be suspected of deliberate sabotage.  Thus his telling Gedwyn, "I use the methods I use,"

A rather devious man indeed.

[CUBAREY]

QUOTE:

 

Gedwyn, "I use the methods I use,"

A rather devious man indeed.

 

Or a rather foolish one. Even a Darkfriend would think twice about arguing with a male channeler. And if he is a darkfriend what purposes do his act further? Is he acting alone? If you could point out even one instance where he was not "acting a fool" I might be more persuaded. You are readying a lot into his conversation with Gedwyn, that I simply do not view as reasonable.

[hurryupnwait]

what purpose do his actions show?  Let the Lord of Chaos rule. His mishandling of things has caused a great deal of that.  Even channelers among the dark friends will obey a beggar if he/she gives the right signals.  I am not just reading into that conversation.  I am looking at Weiramon's actions as a whole.  No one is THAT incompetent to have this many misteps.  I know there is no direct proof of his evil, but I just have a hunch. 

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

No one is THAT incompetent to have this many misteps

 

You are not a student of history are you?  Its a lot more commen then "reasonable" people belive.

[Elwinn Taron]

I have thought that Weiramon was a darkfriend ever since I read his conversation with Gedwyn.  I don't think you have to be smart or even clever to be a darkfriend.  It doesn't make him any less of a fool.

[DemandredFO]

Personally, I think Weiraman is just a high-ranking moron that rand uses because he does not have perfect tools.  It seems to me that the Tairen Highlord darkfriend was the one that Thom sort of killed.  Either way, just because Weiraman causes lots of chaos with his stupidity doesn't necessarily mean that he is a darkfriend.  I agree the abrupt stoppage of the argument with Gedwyn is suggestive. Like CUBAREY said though an instance of Weiraman not being an idiot would help.  Like that scene where Matt is playing dice, I think, with the two merchants and the supposedly drunk Alsteine who Matt sees acting not so drunk.  Something like weiraman having a bright idea by mistake.

[druidravi]

It is certain there are still dark friend's we don't know about. Weiramon can certainly be one. A pity RJ said we haven't met Deamndred on screen . Personally I believe even Luca is a dark friend .

[BrainFireBob]

Better question is: Who doesn't?

 

Weiramon is the most likely DF of the HLs, which is why some of us don't favor him (too obvious)- but really, that's a bad criteria.

 

He seems to be trying to deliberately cost Rand as many soldiers as possible- as a number of people remark, all a number of things he attempts militarily will accomplish nothing except getting men killed.

 

Rand himself keeps asking "How could the man be such a fool?"

 

Simple: He's not. He is foolish and a gloryhound, but he understands war much, much better than he pretends he does.

[hurryupnwait]

my point exactly BFB.  He can't be THAT dumb!

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

Simple: He's not. He is foolish and a gloryhound, but he understands war much, much better than he pretends he does.

 

Except of course none of the other Terans ever asks what the hell Weriman is doing.  If he was a agreat or even good general we might of expected some of the Terean HL  to comment that he had lost his touch, etc.  But we see nothing of the sort, why?

 

Weriman has always been a fool, and full of himself other HL know this and see his present actions as more of yhe same.

[elmis]

I'm almost a hundred percent sure that Weiramon is a darkfriend.

 

As to arguing with a DF channeler.. everyone knows that their oaths to the DO > personal power / abilities. If Weiramon stands higher, or at the same level as the Asha'man in question he wouldn't dare to touch him.

 

BrainFireBob summed up my thoughs on it exactly. Further reading about Weiramon DF theory can be found here: http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=179 (almost at the bottom)

[aevogt]

Bors is Jaichim Carridin.  Liandrin calls Carridin "Bors" when she makes him her dog in TSF chapter 38.

 

I think RJ uses him as a comment on hereditary titles.

[eflynn]

Interesting theory .  Maybe it's true, but haven't all the darkfriends we've seen so far (that we know of for sure) had some sort of mission or other?  What's Weiramon's mission?  To continuously prove himself a fool? To me, his actions to date seem to reflect those of a man who is resentful that his position of authority and respect has been usurped by a farmer from the Two Rivers.  If this is his cover than he's far more clever than he appears (as stated previously).  Of course, it's certainly plausible that he's a DF and if he's not, than who WAS the Tairen at the DF social?

 

Another interesting note - in KOD, both Weiramon and Anaiyella appear in Tear together against Rand's orders.  Does this mark Anaiyella out as a DF too?  Come to think of it, who COULDN'T be a darkfriend?

[eflynn]

Another thread on this forum made me think of something.  Isn't Weiramon's banner the crescent and stars? 

just like Lanfear?

[aevogt]

I think the finger points too strongly at Weiramon.  RJ is almost always more subtle than that.  If he's hinting at Weiramon being a DF with examples of his constant idiocy, it's to draw our attention from something else we should be seeing. 

[hurryupnwait]

RJ makes it obvious without making it obvious.  He does not give us any POV that irrefutably names weiramon d/f.  Yet he drops tons of clues.  I say give RJ credit maybe he knew doing it this way would cast doubt until the critical moment.  We don't know what orders this Tairen High Lord received at Shayol Ghul.  Nor who is giving that man orders now.  I guess we'll see how it goes.

[BrainFireBob]

Well, since it takes a High Lord to nominate a candidate to the High Lords, one of them was responsible for Be'lal. Weiramon fits the bill, and also the arrogant characteristics common to many darkfriends- people believing they can truly possess power given by someone else.

[Tyrell]

True, but Be'lal is just as capable of throwing compulsion as the next forsaken.

 

Not that I disagree with the throey, just that I don't think "someone needed to nominate Be'lal" is the strongest indicator by far.

[hurryupnwait]

Where was Weiramon when Rand first took the Stone?  He was not a part of the story until Cairhien.  Is it possible he was out of Tear carrying out Ishamaels instructions? Otherwise if he is just a power hungry fool that wants to be close to Rand in order to further himself, why wait so long to spring to the forefront?

[druidravi]

Is it confirmed that we haven't met the character Demandred is pretending to be ??

[DemandredFO]

Yes, we haven't seen Demandred's alter-ego.

 

I don't believe that Weiraman is a darkfriend but because I say it doesn't make it true.  As two extremes of Darkfriends, we have Ingtar and Taim.  Ingtar was very subtle while Taim, I think we all agree he is a darkfriend of some sort, is flamboyant.  Even if Weiraman is not a darkfriend doesn't make him any less evil.  Most of the Tairens and Cairhienen would gladly kill Rand if they could survive.

[Baldar]

I'm wary of anyone who hasn't had a portion of the story told from their POV.  ;)

 

I think Weiramon is a DF, and a very stupid one, at that.

[aevogt]

I agree about mistrusting anyone without a POV Scene.  I suspect Leane as a DF for that very reason.

 

As for Weiramon,

 

"He's either very very smart or very very dumb"

                                              Quint