3 men talking . . . Perrin looking.

[Saidar]

This happens in Dragon Reborn. Perrin starts dreaming and he meets Ba'alzamon again. But he doesn't know its Ba'alzamon. Ba'alzamon disappears and Lanfir appears.

 

Everything becomes dark and all of a sudden Perrin finds himself in towers or something. He sees 2 men walking to each other and the start talking and arguing. Ba'alzamon appears again and the 2 men are scared of him. Ba'alzamon does something with fire all the 3 of them are gone...

 

Who are these two men?

Isam and Luc?

Is this the birth of Slayer?

[trakand_01]

Can you type out an excerpt?

 

 

[Saidar]

If you can read dutch... No problem. If you can't read dutch... Lets say we'll have a problem.

[RobertAlexWillis]

The two men are Be'lal (shorter and stocky with short, white hair)and Rahvin (tall, dark and slender with silver in his dark hair).  They are working out their degree of cooperation on the trap meant to draw Egwene, Nynaeve, and Elayne to Tear to serve as bait for Rand (with Lanfear spying in the distance, and cooperating later), and probably "promising" to not interfere in each other's domains.  Then Ishamael comes in and tries to take charge ... and everything goes to pot.

 

Its in TDR ch 4.

 

 

[Saidar]

Wow... How the hell do you know that!?  :)

[trakand_01]

Because he's RAW. He has infinite knowledge  ;D

 

I think you're only topped by Kadere in the Number of Post stakes, arent you RAW?

[Zachary]

I've never read anything to indicate that. Time to get tDR.

[cloglord]

The two men are Be'lal (shorter and stocky with short, white hair)and Rahvin (tall, dark and slender with silver in his dark hair).

 

I disagree, and I will find the post that I made were I outlined why.  I believe it was Be'lal and Demandred.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=17297

 

Okay, I posted this a long time ago, before the server crash, and nobody seemed to agree, but maybe it is time to pull it out and rehash it.

The instance I am refering to is the meeting between Be'Lal and a tall dark stranger in TAR during TDR Ch. 4. This meeting is interupted by Ishmael and waves of fire ensue. This meeting has always puzzled me, because I couldn't figure out a good reason for Ravhin and Be'Lal to be meeting, I CAN think of a few why Be'Lal and Demandred could be meeting though.

 

 

Okay so lets look at the descriptions. In TDR Ch. $ Perrin describes the dark man meeting with Be'Lal to be,...

 

"Tall, dark, and slender, the silver in his dark hair giving him a distinguished look."

 

Mat runs into Ravhin in Camelyn much later in this book, here's his description of Ravhin.

 

"He was a handsome man, almost as good looking as Galad and nearly as youthful-seeming, despite the white streaking his temples, but built on a bigger scale, with more than Rand's height and very nearly Perrin's shoulders."

 

 

Okay, so what similarities can we draw? 1. Both men are tall. 2. Both have some measure of white/silver in his hair.

What are the differences?

 

The first man is described as distinquished, while the second is described as youthful. The firstman is described as slender, while Rahvin is described as being, "built on a bigger scale." The first man has gray in his hair, Ravhin has streaks of white. The first man is described as dark, Rahvin's complexion is not mentioned.

 

So if this mystery man IS really Ravhin, why is he slender and distinquished in chapter 4 and broad and youthful in chapter 46? My answer? Because it's not Ravhin, its Demandred.

 

This was the first post in the thread, but If you go and read it RAW and I, (with the help of several others) attempt to make a case one way or the other.

[trakand_01]

"He was a handsome man, almost as good looking as Galad and nearly as youthful-seeming, despite the white streaking his temples, but built on a bigger scale, with more than Rand's height and very nearly Perrin's shoulders."

[\quote]

 

Bleedin'ell, how big is he!?

[Tyrell]

Couldn't he have been sitting behind a Mirror of the Mists / Mask of Mirrors to make himself bigger / more beautiful than he really is?

[Cari an Imsoen]

I vote Rahvin. Mat overhears him ordering a DF to kill Elyane, and knows that she should be in Tear, so obviously he is in on the plot.

[Ahaz Flagg]

Demandred does seem a little strech, we know so little of him.  But the little we do know of him, would not suggest he would work with Ishy or Be'lal.  does'nt he mostly just work with Semirage and Messana?

 

 

[Majsju]

When Mat sees Rahvin in Ch 46, he's described as dark at least six times...

[Paradox]

I have to say that I'm not totally convinced that it was Rahvin in that meeting. The discrepancy between the to descriptions seems to large. Then again you could argue that it's due to different points of references. I'm torn...   

[RobertAlexWillis]

The only person who describes Rahvin as "slender" is Perrin.  From what we know of Perrin, your average NFL linebacker is "slender" by comparison.

 

It makes sense in the story for it to be Rahvin, and the description fits.  It doesn't make sense for Demandred to be there ... at least, not without a highly speculative, fragilely constructed set of other behind the scenes conditions.  -shrug-  People are, of course, free to disagree, but I don't see it in the story.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Additionally ... let me state for the record ...

 

While I'm flattered by an appreciate the sentiment behind statements like this ...

 

Because he's RAW. He has infinite knowledge

 

... it should be made perfectly clear that trakand_01 knows me well enough to make a statement like that somewhat tongue in cheek.  I just don't want anyone to be confused ... and I certainly don't want anyone to believe something I say, just because I said it.  Buy it or or don't buy it on its merits.  I am entirely fallible (ask any woman who has ever had a thing for me).

[cloglord]

I vote Rahvin. Mat overhears him ordering a DF to kill Elyane, and knows that she should be in Tear, so obviously he is in on the plot.

 

Except if you re-read that chapter, you'll notice that it is Comar who told him that Elayne was going to Tear in the first place, if he was "in on it," why did he act suprised when Comar told him?

 

Demandred does seem a little strech, we know so little of him.  But the little we do know of him, would not suggest he would work with Ishy or Be'lal.  does'nt he mostly just work with Semirage and Messana?

 

Mostly he does work with Messana and Semhirage, but this does not preclude him from working with anyone else either.  There are many similarities between Be'lal and Demandred.  Both were trusted colleagues of LTT, both noted generals, both betrayed the forces of the light to turn to the shadow.  The other thing to consider, is that while these two people in question were meeting, it didn't seem as though they were particularly friendly, nor that they were working together very closely, if you consider their attitudes towards one another prior to Ishmael's arrival.

 

When Mat sees Rahvin in Ch 46, he's described as dark at least six times...

 

Yes and Han, The Clan Chief of the Tomanelle is short, stocky, and has a face like dark leather.  Does that mean he's one of the Seafolk?  Is he Ravhin in disguise?  Is it possible that Ravhin isn't the only "dark," person in the series?  Or is Ravhin merely filling the afirmative action quota for the forsaken?

 

The only person who describes Rahvin as "slender" is Perrin.  From what we know of Perrin, your average NFL linebacker is "slender" by comparison.

 

No Perrin describes the person in question as "slender", Perrin never sees someone that is independantly identified as either Ravhin OR Gaebril.  Mat however does, and he describes Ravhin in comparison to Perrin.  Since we know that Mat knows exactly how wide Perrin's shoulders are, and we can be pretty sure that Perrin knows how wide his shoulders are, and since we know that Perrin absolutely does not think of himself as slender, why would Perrin describe the man from TAR as slender, when Mat describes him as being as wide as Perrin?  It doesn't make sense.

 

It makes sense in the story for it to be Rahvin, and the description fits.

 

Why?  The indications from the overheard conversation between Comar and Ravhin make it clear that Ravhin did not know that Elayne was going to Tear, meaning that he was not complicit in any plan by Bel'al to do the same.  If he is not complicit in planning with Bel'al, why would it make any more sense for it to be Ravhin than Demandred?

 

It doesn't make sense for Demandred to be there ... at least, not without a highly speculative, fragilely constructed set of other behind the scenes conditions.

 

Yet there are no counter indications that Demandred isn't the person in question, while the Comar conversation does provide a counter indication to the Ravhin argument.  Ravhin didn't know what Bel'al was planning, which seem to indicate that he wasn't planning with him...

 

Look, its simple, the two descriptions don't match.  One person is described as youthful, the other distinquised.  One man is slender, the other is built "on a larger scale" than Perrin, the guy who makes "NFL linebackers look slender."  And I think that Perrin, with his enhanced wolf senses can probably tell the difference between white hair and gray.... 

 

... it should be made perfectly clear that trakand_01 knows me well enough to make a statement like that somewhat tongue in cheek.  I just don't want anyone to be confused ... and I certainly don't want anyone to believe something I say, just because I said it.  Buy it or or don't buy it on its merits.  I am entirely fallible (ask any woman who has ever had a thing for me).

 

paranoid much? ;D Just giving you a hard time.

[trakand_01]

When Mat sees Rahvin in Ch 46, he's described as dark at least six times...

 

 

Really? Crikey shows how your brain makes its' own mind up sometimes - i had Rahvin down as a young Burt Reynolds!

 

[Harmless Bandit]

Cloglord does raise a good point on why Perrin would describe a man who is nearly as wide as he is as 'slender'. It's not easy for a man of Rand's height to be slender. Rand is already a broad-shouldered man; now widen his shoulders more, and you get the 'bigger scale'. Nynaeve, when comparing Rand and Rahvin, thought that the height was right, but noted that Rahvin was too large in the chest.

Again, it doesn't make sense for Perrin to describe Rahvin as slender.

[trakand_01]

It was half tongue-in-cheek half completely true - there are a few on here, RAW, Luckers, Majsju, Kadere, Ealdur Tinvel, Cloglord to name but a few, who have evidently read the books several times and as i'm finding on my re-reads, you pick up more and more each time. Every time you read the details you absorb get smaller and smaller, down to the point that not only can you remember which book something happens in, but down to the chapter, to what colour coat Mat was wearing. I remember when Mat was buried under the building in Ebou Dar, he was wearing green, that's why he was attacked - the guards were also wearing green. Olver was wearing red, he was looking for Olver. (Schindler's list, anyone!?).

 

I'd far sooner read one of your posts RAW than one by Animus or WasteofTime... At least you make valid points which, whilst they dont always marry up to what i personally think, are well thought out and can be debated in a reasonable fashion!!

[RobertAlexWillis]

Except if you re-read that chapter, you'll notice that it is Comar who told him that Elayne was going to Tear in the first place, if he was "in on it," why did he act suprised when Comar told him?

 

He didn't act surprised.  He acted irritated.  Almost like he and Be'lal had agreed that Elayne should be left out of it, and he was irritated that she was on the way anyway.

 

Mat however does, and he describes Ravhin in comparison to Perrin.  Since we know that Mat knows exactly how wide Perrin's shoulders are, and we can be pretty sure that Perrin knows how wide his shoulders are, and since we know that Perrin absolutely does not think of himself as slender, why would Perrin describe the man from TAR as slender, when Mat describes him as being as wide as Perrin?

 

Um ... Mat says that he had "more than Rand's height and very nearly Perrin's shoulders". (TDR ch 46)

 

Add six inches to Perrin's frame, and reduce the shoulders slightly, and you have a shape that Perrin could, indeed regard as "slender".  Not "thin", but "slender".  One of the definitions of slender is "small or narrow in circumference or width in proportion to length or height".  In comparative proportion, Rahvin is indeed "slender" compared to Perrin, who is the only one to have described him so.

 

Now, Demandred's most noticeable feature ... the one that is mentioned prominently (pun intended) in descriptions we have that are verifiably of him ... is his somewhat large, hook-shaped nose.  This feature is noticeable only in its absence from Perrin's description of the man he saw talking to Be'lal.

 

Be'lal and Rahvin had reason to communicate.  The girls Be'lal was planning to lure as bait for Rand (Egwene and Nynaeve) were tied up (both as friends and by their recent excursion to Falme) with the daughter of Rahvin's puppet ruler.  Rahvin was clearly using Elayne in the Tower as a way to build enmity between Morgase and the Aes Sedai (witness his comments to Morgase in TDR ch 46) ... but he didn't want her so angry that she tried to march north ... he wanted her troops focused on Cairhien (again, his comments in the same chapter).

 

The fact that he is irritated by Be'lal's seeming inclusion of Elayne (whether Be'lal intended to include her or not is debatable) does not mean that they had not talked before.  It means that what actually happened isn't what they agreed on (assuming they actually ever got to an agreement).

 

The physical description fits Rahvin, and he had a reason, current to the story at the time, to be talking to Be'lal.

[Majsju]

Quote

When Mat sees Rahvin in Ch 46, he's described as dark at least six times...

 

Yes and Han, The Clan Chief of the Tomanelle is short, stocky, and has a face like dark leather.  Does that mean he's one of the Seafolk?  Is he Ravhin in disguise?  Is it possible that Ravhin isn't the only "dark," person in the series?  Or is Ravhin merely filling the afirmative action quota for the forsaken?

 

Simply pointing out that your previous statement is false.

The first man is described as dark, Rahvin's complexion is not mentioned.

 

Might be worth keeping in mind that Demandred is never described as dark. But there are numerous mentions of his hawknose, seems odd Perrin would have completely missed such a feature.

 

And then, there's the matter of clothes.

 

TDR Ch4,

His dark green coat thickly embroidered with golden leaves. Gold-work covered his belt and pouch, and gems sparkled on his dagger sheath, and golden fringe encircled his boot tops.

 

TDR Ch 46 (Rahvin)

The red silk of his coat almost hidden by the gold leaves and scrollsworked on it.

 

WH Ch 13 (Demandreds POV. He is looking at Osan'gar)

He was garbed like some ruler of this Age, in a coat so heavy with embroidery that it almost hid the red of the cloth, and boots fringed with golden tassels. There was enough white lace at his neck and wrists to clothe a child. The man had never known the meaning of excess.

 

Apparently, Demandred is not big on excess. However, the man Perrin sees in T'A'R certainly does not let something like concerns about excess stop him. So why would Demandred dress in a fashion he dislikes in the one place where you can dress how you want just by thinking about it?

[cloglord]

And then, there's the matter of clothes.

 

TDR Ch4,

Quote

His dark green coat thickly embroidered with golden leaves. Gold-work covered his belt and pouch, and gems sparkled on his dagger sheath, and golden fringe encircled his boot tops.

 

TDR Ch 46 (Rahvin)

Quote

The red silk of his coat almost hidden by the gold leaves and scrollsworked on it.

 

WH Ch 13 (Demandreds POV. He is looking at Osan'gar)

Quote

He was garbed like some ruler of this Age, in a coat so heavy with embroidery that it almost hid the red of the cloth, and boots fringed with golden tassels. There was enough white lace at his neck and wrists to clothe a child. The man had never known the meaning of excess.

 

Apparently, Demandred is not big on excess. However, the man Perrin sees in T'A'R certainly does not let something like concerns about excess stop him. So why would Demandred dress in a fashion he dislikes in the one place where you can dress how you want just by thinking about it?

 

This is the best counter argument I've yet heard, but I still would point out that the man from Perrin's TAR POV does not have "enough lace to clothe a child."  Perhaps, the embroidery and the lace taken together were "over the top" from Demandred's POV, but we don't really know what Demandred's taste in clothes is like, because to my (admittedly poor) knowledge we don't ever have a description of his clothes.

 

Now, Demandred's most noticeable feature ... the one that is mentioned prominently (pun intended) in descriptions we have that are verifiably of him ... is his somewhat large, hook-shaped nose.  This feature is noticeable only in its absence from Perrin's description of the man he saw talking to Be'lal.

 

Do you mean both descriptions we have of Demandred?  You know who else is always described as having a hooked nose?  Elbar, Suroth's lackey.  Does that make him youthfully distinquised too?  Does it turn his white hair grey? 

 

 

[Majsju]

Perhaps, the embroidery and the lace taken together were "over the top" from Demandred's POV, but we don't really know what Demandred's taste in clothes is like, because to my (admittedly poor) knowledge we don't ever have a description of his clothes

 

LOC, Prologue

Fur-lined velvet cloak

 

LOC Prologue

He was all in dark gray today, with a little pale lace at his neck.

 

KOD Ch 3

That well-fitted coat of bronze silk, with falls of snowy lace at neck and wrists

 

Apparently, Demandred does not mind quite a bit of lace. What is lacking from all three descriptions, but in excess on both the bloke in T'A'R and Osan'gar is the gold.

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Do you mean both descriptions we have of Demandred?  You know who else is always described as having a hooked nose?  Elbar, Suroth's lackey.  Does that make him youthfully distinquised too?  Does it turn his white hair grey?

 

Um ... no ... but it also doesn't give a prominent schnozz to the guy Perrin saw in Tel'aran'rhiod.

 

I'm sorry ... is your point that because not every person with a big nose is Demandred, the guy in Tel'aran'rhiod must be Demandred?  ???  ???  ???