Mat's Luck

[krelianzg]

I know that the generally accepted theory is that Mat's luck was catalysed by the binding and removal of the SL dagger, which I don't have any real issue with, but I was thinking about the timing and came up with the following;

 

What if Mat's luck was "imprinted" on him by the Horn of Valere as a way to safegaurd the Hornsounder until TG?

 

The timing between blowing the Horn and being separated from the dagger are really close, and while Mat has mused that the dice starting rolling, so to speak, after he was cleansed in Tar Valon, he couldn't even stand on his own two feet by the time he got there, so if the Horn had bestowed him with his luck he wouldn't have noticed it until after being Healed anyway.

 

Having the "lucky" aura attached to the Hornsounder seems logical to me - it ensures that whoever first blows the horn will remain alive and in one piece until the Horn is needed at TG, and Mat's status as ta'veren would account for the more personal twists of fate influenced by his newfound luck.

[RobertAlexWillis]

It was exposure to the dagger, not its removal, that gave him his luck.  Mat has discovered his luck with dice in TGH, ch 3, while the boys are still at Fal Dara, before he ever blew the Horn.

 

The luck was left behind ... and possibly amplified ... by Mat's Healing, but it was there before the Horn was blown.

[krelianzg]

::shrug::

 

Oh well, so much for that thought.

 

I thought the "dice in his head" feeling didn't start until after he was taken to Tar Valon though.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I thought the "dice in his head" feeling didn't start until after he was taken to Tar Valon though.

 

While that is probably true, it still doesn't mean it came from the Horn ... the Healing appears to have affected the luck in some way.

 

Also, we don't really know for sure what was going on in Mat's head before he was Healed ... his first POV chapter is in TDR ch 19, when he wakes up from being Healed.  And in TDR ch 30, his own POV does place the beginning of his super-luck at Shadar Logoth.

 

The first time he feels the dice rolling in his head is when he is getting ready to enter the Stone in TDR ch 52.

[Paradox]

I gotta say that I find both explanations equally possible at this time, with the evidence we got, if we discard Mat as an authority on the subject. True Mat seemed very lucky in Fal Dara but every one can have a "good night" and he has often mentioned that he won more then he lost even before the dagger.

[krelianzg]

I'm entirely willing to accept that the SL dagger gave him his luck - just toying around with this theory until it totally falls apart - but has anyone ever come up with any sort of reasoning behind why contact with one of the greatest forces of evil in the world would make someone quite literally the luckiest man alive?

 

It just doesn't make any sense. If that's true, then does that mean Fain has some sort of luck-related abilities too?

 

My whole problem with his luck coming from Shadar Logoth is it just seems like such an arbitrary aftereffect.

[BrainFireBob]

I've long wondered if Mat made a deal with Ba'alzamon in the EotW- drinking the goblet, etc.- that he simply doesn't remember, but did result in the Dark One's luck in addition to his ta'veren luck, if such a thing exists.

 

It puts me in mind of the old Twilight Zone episode- where the gambler makes a deal with the Devil, and then always wins. Unlike most gamblers, Mat isn't addicted to the "thrill" of gambling- he just likes money and really, really likes winning, so such a gift wouldn't bother him.

 

I'd also like to note that I always read that scene in tDR as Mat's luck having a boiling-kettle effect after his convalescence- that Mat's luck, or possibly the DO's luck, *has* to be expressed. His compulsive gambling would serve as a "safety valve", as well as his risk-filled lifestyle, bleeding it off- but he did nothing involving luck during his convalesence, which could easily explain his night in Bangkok.

 

It's even possible that the dagger "protected" him from this need for expression until he could handle it on his own- that he was constantly "using" his luck by staying alive and mostly himself under the dagger's influence.

 

Third attempt at posting- hopefully it won't crash because of "new responses" this time.

 

Addition: By my theory, the dagger merely protected Mat from the true source of his luck, de facto suppressing it, until he became a gambler

[RobertAlexWillis]

I gotta say that I find both explanations equally possible at this time, with the evidence we got if we discard Mat as an authority on the subject.  True Mat seemed very lucky in Fal Dara but every one can have a "good night" and he has often mentioned that he won more then he lost even before the dagger.

 

Actually, this is what he said:

 

He knew he was lucky.  He could remember always being lucky.  But somehow, his memories from Emond's Field did not show him as lucky as he had been since leaving.  Certainly he had gotten away with a great deal, but he could remember also being caught in pranks he had been sure would succeed.  His mother had always seemed to know what he was up to, and Nynaeve able to see through whatever defenses he put up.  But it was not just since leaving the Two Rivers that he had become lucky.  The luck had come once he took the dagger from Shadar Logoth.  He remembered playing at dice back home, with a sharp-eyed, skinny man who worked for a merchant come down from Baerlon to buy tabac.  He remembered the strapping his father had given him, too, on learning Mat owed the man a silver mark and four pence.

 

TDR ch 30

 

That seems pretty clear, especially since it matches the events we see in the story.  Now, you're right, if we discard Mat as an authority on the subject (himself), then ... well, at that point, we can pretty much think whatever we want.

 

I suppose I'm stifling the conversation again ... but if we're not taking Mat's memories and the events that are actually written in the story as "authority", then what, exactly, are we taking as "authority"?

 

I mean, if we discard what we read, then sure, the luck could derive from a never mentioned and unremembered deal with Ba'alzamon ... or it could also be the result of winning an unremembered and unmentioned game of Mario Party 12 in Tel'aran'rhiod derived from the memories of one of the Heroes from another Age, because everyone knows that the Wii is the work of Shivan the Destroyer and heralds the End of our Age ... its just not mentioned in the books (because the Wii wasn't out when Jordan published TDR, and he didn't want to spoil it for us).

 

-sigh-

[BrainFireBob]

That's what actually germinated my idea, RaW- Mat's luck had crazy expression in tDR, and again when planning the release of the Windfinders after being injured for some weeks (though not nearly as strong). In common both times is a lack of items of random chance being involved, where Mat's luck could manifest.

 

Mat had luck before, but not like that. Ergo, he either became luckier, or his luck was enhanced in some way. If he had native "luckiness" in addition to ta'veren chance-twisting, that could explain it- but the boys seemed to have become ta'veren just before Moiraine arrived, and his luck changed around the time the dagger was found. *However*- that was not the only event occuring right around that time, just the one Mat himself dates it to, possibly because the dagger was a "lucky find."

 

Shortly before that, Ba'alzamon was offering all the boys deals in their dreams- and we never see Mat's POV of them. Only ever Perrin and Rand. I've always been suspicious that Mat- the most susceptible to promises of power or glory or wealth- may have said "yes" suspecting it a dream, before Moiraine warned them.

[BrainFireBob]

Modifying is making the site close for me, so I'll add a post instead.

 

From Fain, we know the Shadow can alter people and create new characteristics. In Fain's case, his "responsiveness" to ta'veren was enhanced and concentrated, and the expense of his self to some degree.

 

It is also possible the dagger alone then is responsible, by slowly erasing Mat's character and memories down to his "base"- which is where his luck apparently comes from, or possibly where the Pattern's design for him is expressed (oh, something along the lines that his ta'veren luck is expressed more easily through him, because there's less him there.) That explanation also covers where his memories would have originated from- they're there in back, buried in who he is. May even be considered a parallel to the tain degradation theory, though it's not one I'm partial to as normally presented.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Mat's luck had crazy expression in tDR, and again when planning the release of the Windfinders after being injured for some weeks (though not nearly as strong).  In common both times is a lack of items of random chance being involved, where Mat's luck could manifest.

 

Those are hardly the only times his luck has worked for things other than games of random chance.  A complete list would be far too long to post, and require great amounts of time ... and prove nothing.  Pretty much everything weird about Mat in all the stories happens after he picked up the dagger ... with one important exception ... which I'll mention in response to this:

 

It is also possible the dagger alone then is responsible, by slowly erasing Mat's character and memories down to his "base"- which is where his luck apparently comes from, or possibly where the Pattern's design for him is expressed (oh, something along the lines that his ta'veren luck is expressed more easily through him, because there's less him there.) That explanation also covers where his memories would have originated from- they're there in back, buried in who he is.

 

Mat started spouting the Old Tongue before he ever picked up the dagger ... much less lost his memories ... so either something else starting "erasing Mat's character and memories down to his 'base'" before he ever got the dagger, or the manifestation isn't the result of erasing anything ...

 

Shortly before that, Ba'alzamon was offering all the boys deals in their dreams- and we never see Mat's POV of them.

 

And of course, I'm sure he fully intended to deliver on all of them ... do I have to point out the sarcasm there?  I completely fail to see what Ba'alzamon could possibly gain by making Mat insanely lucky.

 

As for this ...

 

If he had native "luckiness" in addition to ta'veren chance-twisting, that could explain it- but the boys seemed to have become ta'veren just before Moiraine arrived, and his luck changed around the time the dagger was found. *However*- that was not the only event occuring right around that time, just the one Mat himself dates it to, possibly because the dagger was a "lucky find."

 

It is the only event that happened to Mat and Mat alone.  Mat's the only one who took anything from Shadar Logoth, and he's the only one that got super-lucky.  That is not proof positive, of course, but with the coincidence in timing it is certainly indicative, and there aren't any counter-indications.

 

I guess what this boils down to, for me, is that there is zero indication, in what is written or in any of Jordan's comments that I've seen, that indicates anything remotely like what you're proposing.  The fact that the Shadow can "alter people" doesn't mean that Ba'alzamon can do anything he likes ... and to mess with Fain the way they did, they had to have his cooperation and take him to Shayol Ghul.  Also, Ba'alzamon's motive for making such a change is ... well ... non-existent.  He's not going to give the boys powers and presents before they sign on, and there is no indication at all that Mat did.

 

There is a perfectly reasonable explanation given, that doesn't contradict anything else we've seen.  Is there a reason, in the text, that you think Mat is wrong?  I mean, if we simply assume that he is wrong, then we can postulate a massive number of alternate possibilities ... possibly an infinite number, if we don't limit ourselves to what is actually indicated in the book.  But why?

 

The story isn't served by making it something else.  I admit, I truly do not understand the urge to convolute the simple and complexify the straightforward.  Sometimes, a horse is just a horse.

[Baldar]

I think it's a combination of being ta'varen, the dagger, the horn, and the healing at a particular period of time. For some reason, all those factors have given him the ability to consciously bend probability at will in a way that none of the other ta'varen have experienced.

 

Of course, even in his past lives he was often known as "the Gambler", so it stands to reason that for 1000s of years he's been fairly lucky. IMO, the above factors simply worked as a way to distill all of the random aspects of being ta'varen into his own, highly concentrated, luck.

[Ahaz Flagg]

I think it's a combination of being ta'varen, the dagger, the horn, and the healing at a particular period of time. For some reason, all those factors have given him the ability to consciously bend probability at will in a way that none of the other ta'varen have experienced.

 

Of course, even in his past lives he was often known as "the Gambler", so it stands to reason that for 1000s of years he's been fairly lucky. IMO, the above factors simply worked as a way to distill all of the random aspects of being ta'varen into his own, highly concentrated, luck.

 

This is where I belive Mat's luck comes from, it is true that many people are spun out again and again. Mat is the gambler. Its realy that simple.

[Littel me]

Another point in fevoer the dagger as a surces of the luck is that Slayer comments on Fains(the only other carier of the daggert) luck in staing alive.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Of course, even in his past lives he was often known as "the Gambler"

 

Perhaps you could give us an example of this from the books?  Keeping in mind that the memories the Eelfinn gave him are not from his own past lives ...

[Ahaz Flagg]

Of course, even in his past lives he was often known as "the Gambler"

 

Perhaps you could give us an example of this from the books?  Keeping in mind that the memories the Eelfinn gave him are not from his own past lives ...

 

Nothing Specific Robert, just the fact that the wheel spins out people.  Mat's luck has been with him his whole life, if not to the extent it is now.  He has been called the gambler by some of the forsaken, that is enough evidence  for me.

[Otarin]

I was always under the impression that Matt's increased luck can from Lanfear.  More specificly it came from her manipulation of the Dice Ter'Angreal stolen by the BA sometime before Verin, Mat, and the girls arrive from Toman Head in TDR. Verin mentions in her notes to the girls that the DICE suspend chance but that is all they know about them.

 

My guess is that when Lanfear visits Mat in TDR she uses the DICE on him.  He mentions feeling "strange" in his POV when she visits and suspects she is an Aes Sedai.      

 

This would exlpain the dice rattling in his head.  Also, his increased luck, etc.

 

His first real experience with "crazy luck" or suspended chance happens shortly after his encounter with Lanfear.

 

 

 

[BrainFireBob]

Mat's luck had crazy expression in tDR, and again when planning the release of the Windfinders after being injured for some weeks (though not nearly as strong).  In common both times is a lack of items of random chance being involved, where Mat's luck could manifest.

 

Those are hardly the only times his luck has worked for things other than games of random chance.  A complete list would be far too long to post, and require great amounts of time ... and prove nothing.  Pretty much everything weird about Mat in all the stories happens after he picked up the dagger ... with one important exception ... which I'll mention in response to this:

 

It is also possible the dagger alone then is responsible, by slowly erasing Mat's character and memories down to his "base"- which is where his luck apparently comes from, or possibly where the Pattern's design for him is expressed (oh, something along the lines that his ta'veren luck is expressed more easily through him, because there's less him there.) That explanation also covers where his memories would have originated from- they're there in back, buried in who he is.

 

Mat started spouting the Old Tongue before he ever picked up the dagger ... much less lost his memories ... so either something else starting "erasing Mat's character and memories down to his 'base'" before he ever got the dagger, or the manifestation isn't the result of erasing anything ...

 

Shortly before that, Ba'alzamon was offering all the boys deals in their dreams- and we never see Mat's POV of them.

 

And of course, I'm sure he fully intended to deliver on all of them ... do I have to point out the sarcasm there?  I completely fail to see what Ba'alzamon could possibly gain by making Mat insanely lucky.

 

As for this ...

 

If he had native "luckiness" in addition to ta'veren chance-twisting, that could explain it- but the boys seemed to have become ta'veren just before Moiraine arrived, and his luck changed around the time the dagger was found. *However*- that was not the only event occuring right around that time, just the one Mat himself dates it to, possibly because the dagger was a "lucky find."

 

It is the only event that happened to Mat and Mat alone.  Mat's the only one who took anything from Shadar Logoth, and he's the only one that got super-lucky.  That is not proof positive, of course, but with the coincidence in timing it is certainly indicative, and there aren't any counter-indications.

 

I guess what this boils down to, for me, is that there is zero indication, in what is written or in any of Jordan's comments that I've seen, that indicates anything remotely like what you're proposing.  The fact that the Shadow can "alter people" doesn't mean that Ba'alzamon can do anything he likes ... and to mess with Fain the way they did, they had to have his cooperation and take him to Shayol Ghul.  Also, Ba'alzamon's motive for making such a change is ... well ... non-existent.  He's not going to give the boys powers and presents before they sign on, and there is no indication at all that Mat did.

 

There is a perfectly reasonable explanation given, that doesn't contradict anything else we've seen.  Is there a reason, in the text, that you think Mat is wrong?  I mean, if we simply assume that he is wrong, then we can postulate a massive number of alternate possibilities ... possibly an infinite number, if we don't limit ourselves to what is actually indicated in the book.  But why?

 

The story isn't served by making it something else.  I admit, I truly do not understand the urge to convolute the simple and complexify the straightforward.  Sometimes, a horse is just a horse.

 

Yes- even before the Eelfin, Mat's knowledge of the Old Tongue, and his use of it, increased due to the dagger- he wasn't spouting the odd phrase or two, he was making cogent remarks at length about the events around him. The dagger also erased many of his memories- gone, kaput, no more. Our memories create our personalities and who we are, especially in Jordan's world (consider his remarks about LTT and Rand being different people with the same soul)- the dagger was erasing "Matrim Cauthon" leaving just the base soul-template bare. He also gained his first Old Tongue "memories" *prior to the 'Finn* but *due to the dagger*. Genetic memory or soul memory, the dagger was erasing Mat to his core. This is inconstestable.

 

Mat also has his Portal Stone experiences of betraying Rand, etc.- Mat is the most disturbed by the dreams, as well. I think it's significant that we never "see" Mat's POV in one of these dreams- the boys assume they all acted the same way, but Mat even admits he revealed which of the ta'veren he was to Rand. That reads like an RJ clue, along the lines of Graendal's reflections on her angreal ring was a clue that she would have been willing to be in Caemlyn and have the opportunity to kill Asmo.

 

Rand is also more strongly ta'veren than Mat, but Mat's luck manifests more strongly in predictable ways. He is *always* lucky at gambling, he doesn't just sometimes twist chance freakishly in his favor. In fact, in the Karaetheon Cycle his luck is one of his defining characteristics. Mat's luck is beyond the luck possessed by the other two, it is always present, and most importantly, it always works in his favor. Rand's luck is in balance- remember, the Pattern doesn't care and twists chance around ta'veren evenly? Mat's luck does not.

 

A horse may be just a horse- but I'm not twisting anything to say there's something different about Mat's luck. I am looking for an explanation based around where it manifested, because it is . .unlike . .Jordan to have Mat just randomly be lucky. Jordan always lays out reasons- would you like to help find them, or ignore the fact Mat's luck is different?

 

I didn't even get into the strongest proof- Mat's predictive properties and his mental "dice."

[Briwan Dragain]

Umm, kay. So, firstly I tought that the memories in Mat's head were memories of his past life. He asked for the holes in his memory to be filled and I thought them creepy critters gave him memories of a lot of his past lives.

 

Also, Mat definitely was spouting Old Tongue before the dagger. As I recall, him and Egwene were shouting some stuff in a battle before Shadar Logoth.

 

Now, this could just be supposition and guess work, but I was of the belief that luck was Mat's... gift, we can say. Rand has channeling, Perrin is a wolfbrother, Mat is lucky. Could be that he was just a little luckier than most until after the Healing.. and then that somehow boosted it. Could be that he was bound to just get luckier as time went on, the same way that Perrin just.. became.. a wolfbrother, that Rand is able to channel.

 

Neiher are explained any more than Mat's luck is, in my opinion. I mean, Rand had the spark. We knew that. And Perrin was destined to be a wolfbrother. Why not Mat destined to be lucky?

 

Dunno. Maybe I'm just being silly.

[RobertAlexWillis]

He also gained his first Old Tongue "memories" *prior to the 'Finn* but *due to the dagger*. Genetic memory or soul memory, the dagger was erasing Mat to his core. This is inconstestable.

 

Um, its not only contestable, its dead wrong.  He was shouting "Carai an Caldazar" before he ever picked up the dagger.  Read TEoTW ch 18.  That is before they enter Shadar Logoth.

 

Mat is the most disturbed by the dreams, as well.

 

On what do you base that assessment?  Mat has a more extroverted personality than Rand or Perrin from the start ... that doesn't mean his dreams affected him any more or less than the others.

 

I think it's significant that we never "see" Mat's POV in one of these dreams- the boys assume they all acted the same way, but Mat even admits he revealed which of the ta'veren he was to Rand.

 

While you're certainly entitled to your opinion of the signifigance of those exchanges, the simple absence of a Mat POV in the Ba'alzamon dreams is far from sufficient to even indicate, much less serve as evidence for, the wholly invented conclusion you draw from it.

 

It may be as simple as the fact that we see Rand's and Perrin's because they gained power in dreams, and Mat didn't.  Seeing Rand's dreams was important to the story; he is the one Ba'alzamon was really looking for, and his channeling would allow him access to Tel'aran'rhiod.  Seeing Perrin's dreams was important to the story; he gained abilities in Tel'aran'rhiod by becoming a Wolfbrother.  Seeing Mat's dreams?  Perhaps it was left out because it simply was not important to the story; he certainly hasn't done anything that we've seen with his dreams.  Certainly there is nothing actually in the stories that point to such as the origin for Mat's luck.

 

When the memories he does have match what we can see in the story (the dagger being the source of his luck), I simply see no reason to assume that he is wrong and go looking for another answer.

 

Rand is also more strongly ta'veren than Mat, but Mat's luck manifests more strongly in predictable ways. He is *always* lucky at gambling, he doesn't just sometimes twist chance freakishly in his favor. In fact, in the Karaetheon Cycle his luck is one of his defining characteristics. Mat's luck is beyond the luck possessed by the other two, it is always present, and most importantly, it always works in his favor. Rand's luck is in balance- remember, the Pattern doesn't care and twists chance around ta'veren evenly? Mat's luck does not.

 

I'm not sure what your point is here.  Rand didn't carry the dagger, so comparing Rand's experience with Mat's does nothing toward proving whether or not the source of Mat's luck is the dagger ...

 

A horse may be just a horse- but I'm not twisting anything to say there's something different about Mat's luck.

 

I agree, but what's your point?  There's also something that Mat did that no one else did; carry the dagger.

 

I am looking for an explanation based around where it manifested, because it is . .unlike . .Jordan to have Mat just randomly be lucky. Jordan always lays out reasons- would you like to help find them, or ignore the fact Mat's luck is different?

 

Um ... I gave you a reason, and so did Jordan, through Mat.  The dagger has funky mystical powers.  Mat got super lucky after he picked it up.  This honestly isn't hard ... and it fits the pattern of what we've seen from one place; Shadar Logoth.  Jordan doesn't bother to explain the methodology of Fain's powers, or anything from Shadar Logoth.  So the fact that we don't get detailed explanation about the mechanics of Mat's super-luck (unlike channeling, or being a Wolfbrother) makes it more likely that the source is the Shadar Logoth dagger.

 

I didn't even get into the strongest proof- Mat's predictive properties and his mental "dice."

 

How do those things prove anything about the source of his abilities?  Mat is hardly the only one who grows into his power over time.  Fain also uncovers new aspects and uses for his power the longer he uses it.  Mat learns and grows, but that doesn't mean the source of that power is anything other than exactly what he thinks it is; his reaction to the Shadar Logoth dagger.

 

So, firstly I tought that the memories in Mat's head were memories of his past life.

 

Mat's memories are the memories of other adventurers who made deals with the Eelfinn, not his own past lives.  This is posted on WOTmania;

 

Week 12 Question: You stated in another interview that Mat's memories came from adventurers who traveled through the ter'angreal. However several of Mat's memories end with the adventurer dying. Since adventurers probably didn't go through the ter'angreal after they died, how could the 'Finns have obtained these memories?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: A good question. I was wondering when someone would ask that. I expected it as soon as Mat started revealing those old memories. At least a partial answer will be coming up in the next main sequence book, so I guess you could say this is a RAFO. But I will say that if I said those adventurers all entered through the two ter'angreal, I misspoke. A good many entered through the Tower of Ghenjei, which was more widely known in earlier years, if never exactly a household name.

 

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152

 

The "partial answer" that Jordan is talking about is in KoD chapters 8 and 10 (that quote is from before the publication of Knife of Dreams).  When people came to make agreements, part of the price they paid was to let the Eelfinn experience the world through them.  Mat thinks that they might be in his head.  But that is the source of Mat's memories; not his own past lives, but the lives of men who made deals with the Eelfinn.

 

Why not Mat destined to be lucky?

 

Because the author of the story goes out of his way to give us a source.

 

His first real experience with "crazy luck" or suspended chance happens shortly after his encounter with Lanfear.

 

No, thats the first time we get his POV, so thats the first time its obvious.  He has ridiculous luck in Fal Dara, dicing with the Shienarans, and on the way back to the Tower from Falme, Hurin stopped dicing with him, because he had no chance of winning.

 

These are more subtle clues, because we don't get them from Mat's POV, but they are there.  (TGH, ch 3, and TDR, ch 10 )

 

Nothing Specific Robert, just the fact that the wheel spins out people.

 

Well ... when you say it the way you did ("Of course, even in his past lives he was often known as 'the Gambler'"), it sounds like you're stating an established fact, with evidence.  It is not.  We have no confirmed information at all about any of Mat's previous lives.

 

He has been called the gambler by some of the forsaken, that is enough evidence  for me.

 

He's been called "gambler" and "trickster" by lots of people, the Forsaken among them.  But thats all talking about his current life, in which he most certainly is a gambler and trickster.  Why do you think it applies to or comes from any of his previous lives?  There's simply no reason to think that ... at least not a reason actually in the books.

[Baldar]

Well ... when you say it the way you did ("Of course, even in his past lives he was often known as 'the Gambler'"), it sounds like you're stating an established fact, with evidence.  It is not.  We have no confirmed information at all about any of Mat's previous lives.

 

He's been called "gambler" and "trickster" by lots of people, the Forsaken among them.  But thats all talking about his current life, in which he most certainly is a gambler and trickster.  Why do you think it applies to or comes from any of his previous lives?  There's simply no reason to think that ... at least not a reason actually in the books.

 

Frequently he talked about past battles and how he relied on his luck during his past lives.

 

"Dovie'andi se tovya sagain" it seems, has always been his creed.

 

 

[hurryupnwait]

Mat was refered to as "Gambler," "Trickster," and "Son of Battles" by the Snake People.  I think the fact that they capitalized those labels makes them Titles.  Mat is also referred to in the prophecies I doubt the wheel would spin out some random scrub, make him a taveren who must survive and thrive for the Dragon to win.  I think that makes both Mat and Perrin (who is also referred to in the Prophecy) more than just random souls spun out.  It has been stated that people can be added to the list of those bound to the Horn, but I kind of doubt that in this crucial sequence of events the pattern would risk using anyone, but the best.  Thus we have the Dragon Reborn, the Wolf King, and the Gambler.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Frequently he talked about past battles and how he relied on his luck during his past lives.

 

If he talks about his past lives "frequently", then it shouldn't be hard to find an example, should it?

 

On the other hand, he does often talk about the memories of the men which he got from the Eelfinn, which are NOT from his past lives.  You did actually read my previous post before responding, right?  It includes this little gem from ... Robert Jordan:

 

Week 12 Question: You stated in another interview that Mat's memories came from adventurers who traveled through the ter'angreal. However several of Mat's memories end with the adventurer dying. Since adventurers probably didn't go through the ter'angreal after they died, how could the 'Finns have obtained these memories?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: A good question. I was wondering when someone would ask that. I expected it as soon as Mat started revealing those old memories. At least a partial answer will be coming up in the next main sequence book, so I guess you could say this is a RAFO. But I will say that if I said those adventurers all entered through the two ter'angreal, I misspoke. A good many entered through the Tower of Ghenjei, which was more widely known in earlier years, if never exactly a household name.

 

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152

 

Mat's memories of battle, with the possible exception of his memories of one battle in Manetheren, do not come from his past lives.  They come from the lives of other men who made deals with the Eelfinn.

 

Look ... any successful battle commander is going to be a gambler on some level, unless all he does is defend highly fortified structures against inferior forces.  So, since he was given memories of battle commanders, of course there is going to be a common element in them.  But that doesn't mean that Mat's soul is some kind of "gambler" template, like Rand's soul is the "Dragon" template.  Mat's super-luck and ta'veren-ness are a part of him in this life.

 

"Dovie'andi se tovya sagain" was also a favorite saying of Verin's uncle.  Does that mean that Mat is Verin's uncle reborn?  Of course not.  Mat has to take chances to survive ... in this life.

 

Mat was refered to as "Gambler," "Trickster," and "Son of Battles" by the Snake People.  I think the fact that they capitalized those labels makes them Titles.

 

Yes.  Titles for him ... in this life.  He's not "The Gambler Reborn" ...

 

Mat is also referred to in the prophecies I doubt the wheel would spin out some random scrub, make him a taveren who must survive and thrive for the Dragon to win.

 

Asmodean is referred to in the Prophecies.  So is Luc.  So are dozens of people.  Are they all "special souls"?  Elayne, Aviendha, and Min are given titles in a Foretelling ... is Elayne "the Lion Sword" in every turning?  Is Aviendha always "the Dedicated Spear"?

 

The Karaethon Prophecies (and other Prophecies) are Foretellings that specifically predict events for this turning.  The fact that Mat is present in them is not evidence of anything in any past life.

[Baldar]

So, you're saying that Mat got other people's memories crammed into his head?

 

"I walk around with holes in my memory, holes in my life, and you stare at me like idiots. If I had my way, I would want those holes filled, but at least answers to my questions might fill some in my future."

 

So, they just filled in the "holes" with whatever they had lying around? I don't buy that. They filled his head with some of the memories of the men he used to be. The reason he calls them "other men" is because he still hadn't come to grips with living all those lives.

 

 

[Majsju]

So, you're saying that Mat got other people's memories crammed into his head?

 

"I walk around with holes in my memory, holes in my life, and you stare at me like idiots. If I had my way, I would want those holes filled, but at least answers to my questions might fill some in my future."

 

So, they just filled in the "holes" with whatever they had lying around? I don't buy that. They filled his head with some of the memories of the men he used to be. The reason he calls them "other men" is because he still hadn't come to grips with living all those lives.

 

 

 

*Cough*

 

Q: Are all of Mat's memories from his past lives?

RJ: No, Mat's "old" memories are not from his past lives at all. The "sickness" he got from the Shadar Logoth dagger resulted in holes in his memory. He found whole stretches of his life that seemed to be missing. When he passed through the "doorframe" ter'angreal in Rhuidean, one of the things he said - not knowing that the rules here were different than in the other ter'angreal he had used - was that he wanted the holes in his memory filled up, meaning that he wanted to recover his own memories. In this place, however, it was not a matter of asking questions and receiving answers, but of striking bargains for what you want. What he received for that particular demand was memories gathered by the people on that side of the ter'angreal, memories from many men, all long dead, from many cultures. And since not everyone passing by has the nerve to journey through a ter'angreal to some other world, the memories he receieved were those of adventurers and soldiers and men of daring.

 

Edit: Mental collapse, now I got the correct quote, and not the one already posted.