Women and Men: a Calm Discussion (No Sexim Here Please)

[n00l3y]

Agree with Ozzie, though I'd replace Min with Tuon when it comes to those who aren't twits.

 

Well, I can normally be quite the MCP but I shall attempt to be as impartial as possible here. I believe the Male-Female conflict we see is the cause of many many factors, and I'll list just a few I think are most large-scale.

 

Firstly, we must realise that in WoT, the characters we whom we tend to see the most of are resilient, stuck-up, arrogant, assertive and stubborn, whether from the beginning (Nynaeve, Lan) or across the series (Rand, Egwene, Min). Somehow, RJ had some fetish for putting these perfectly normal personalities in a most conflicting way. Perrin, for example, the meek one so kind and compassionate yet protective of his pack. Faile's feisty, likes to take control, and views Perrin's tenderness as insult. Toss in Berelain and our favourite prophet, and you get one big mess.

 

Another issue is the WoT lore. On Earth, male sovereignty began due to physical strength, though there were exceptions to this rule. In WoT, no such thing developed, and perhaps due to Aes Sedai, village healers, women councils or whatever, women decided to take charge. It works, yet when differing cultures are placed together, sometimes the balance between man and woman goes awry.

 

Lastly is the simple fact that our characters' lives are messed up. I mean, not all male-female relationships in WoT can be as messed up as Rand and his harem, otherwise we'll have a far different socio-political landscape. Rand, Mat and Perrin, three perfectly normal village-boys attached to princesses, Aiel, the WoT equivalent of a seer...I've read romance flicks with less complicated love lives.

 

Ok, now to add my personal opinion on the women. And the men. But before I begin perhaps I'd like to add that a lot of this is my own view. I sometimes don't like people who are weak, humble, dogmatic, etc, and if you think differently, I'll respect that.

 

Cadsuane: I detest her. I can see where her admirers are coming from, in some strange, convoluted way. She's strong, fearless, composed and sensible, but I think her view of everything is just messed up. How she seeks to condition Rand as if he were some cake which needs a pinch of care, a teaspoon of love, a cup of endurance, bake under training for one hour...Oh and it doesn't help that she's one arrogant twit that needs a spanking more severe than Rand.

 

Egwene: I tread dangerous ground with this character. Originally, I thought she was a strong-willed, determined heroine. That lasted for the first 3 books. After that it was a slippery slope into arrogance and blindless, perhaps due to extensive confinement with Nynaeve, Aiel, Aes Sedai and the like. She's not so bad at the end of it, but perhaps because of how she made so great a fall in my eyes, she's lowest ranked. I can forgive some mistakes due to her youth and history with Rand, but she somehow garnered all the feminism of WoT in one person.

 

Lan: At first, cool, awesome warder. As he gradually became a slave to Nynaeve after being Moirane's footman, I just got disgusted. Just another twit who's proved that the Aes Sedai aren't so wrong in confining men to a lower tier.

 

Tuon: Till now, I can't decide whether she's impressive or spoilt. Sometimes she can be dead annoying, sometimes the very thing which makes Mat chapters my favourites. Whatever it is, perhaps my favourite woman in the series, perhaps just because she so easily flips between frustrating and great.

 

Mat+Perrin+Rand: Ok, they're 3 different characters, but I have a general emotion towards them. Sympathy. They're being tossed into a foreign world with foreign cultures and abilities. Saidin, Lycanthropy, Flashbacks...all really neat, but result in detrimental side-effects as well. Could I say the same for, say, Egwene? Same background, same scenario, in terms of having new powers, but hers tend to be intentionally grown, and accepted by community. Dream-walking, Saidar...they're both admired by society at large, and unlike the 3 ta'veren, she has the (mis)guidance of the Aiel and Aes Sedai. Some mistakes by the 3 guys are unforgivable, but I'd hate to be in their shoes more than any other.

 

Well, I could say more, but I'm probably boring everyone to death, so I shall stop.

[faerielin]

I have always thought that most of the major characters have greatly exagerated gender traits. The first couple of times through the series, I got very tired of Rand, Mat and Perrin always thinking of one or both of the others when in a sticky situation with a female. I also got sick of the women, Nynaeve, Egwene and Elayne mostly; always thinking the men were just being stupid.

 

Generally, the men and women I know, don't act this way on such a regular basis. It just seems like these behaviors/perspectives are a little too excessive and too common in most of Randland. The ones who have more moderate personalities seem to be in the minority. Whether this can be attributed to the type of society that RJ invented, I can't decide.

 

At the same time, though, at least with the above characters, and several others, age plays a major roll in their behaviors. All except Nyn. are 20 or under and Nynaeve is no more than 25 if I remember correctly. I can associate those characters with the members of a LARPing group that I knew (I was in a different group under the same organization), that particular group was made up almost entirely of high schoolers and college age folks. They didn't behave all that different. They were just so young and inexperienced that everything was incredibly dramatic and over the top.  Everything from "there's mud on the bottom of my shoe" to "she was talking to my boyfriend" to "hey, that's cheating" got equally outrageous reactions. And some people just never outgrow that behavior.

 

[BrainFireBob]

Nynaeve was raised by her father, an extreme manly-man type like Lan- that's why she knows how to track, she had no brothers for her father to teach, and for all her faults, she's an empathic healer to the bone, so she played the tom girl for him.

 

Her mother died very, very early. Her substitute mother was the old Wisdom. Hence her mothering of the Emond's Fielders, especially Rand, who also did not have his mother . . .

[Ninkharsag]

I have to say when I read the books I can think of a woman I know acting or thinking a lot like the women RJ has gifted us with.  Not all the time.  It is a fiction book after all, but on more than one occasion the behavior of these women has tripped a memory of mine from real life.  Some from growing up, some from stories of coworkers, and some from close friends. 

[Lune]

Nynaeve was raised by her father, an extreme manly-man type like Lan- that's why she knows how to track, she had no brothers for her father to teach, and for all her faults, she's an empathic healer to the bone, so she played the tom girl for him.

 

Her mother died very, very early. Her substitute mother was the old Wisdom. Hence her mothering of the Emond's Fielders, especially Rand, who also did not have his mother . . .

 

This is actually the one thing that frustrates me about Nynaeve. For somebody initially raised close to her father, she isn't terribly understanding of men.

[faerielin]

I think the implication was that she's not very understanding of any man who is not just like her father...?

[Baldar]

I think the implication was that she's not very understanding of any man who is not just like her father...?

 

that's exactly correct. Lan's personality is very similar to her father's, most likely. She wants her father-figure and a mate, and Lan fills both roles.

[Cabriana]

This is actually the one thing that frustrates me about Nynaeve. For somebody initially raised close to her father, she isn't terribly understanding of men.

 

Nynaeve isn't terribly understanding of anyone.

[Lacey]

Quote:

 

I often find myself in hysterical laughter or utterly dumbfounded by the rationale that Nanyeave(sp, Egwene and Elayne(sp) give for there thoughts and actions while I'm usually accepting of those of Perrin, Mat and Rand.  Not that I agree with their actions or thoughts but I see why and how the came to to conclusions they did. 

 

This is one of the strengths of RJ women and men think differently in real life and so do his characters

 

I laugh too...but as a woman... I laugh at the men (mostly).  I agree with you completely.

[World_of_Wheel_of_Time]

I think if I had to choose between the girls in the story, I would pick Min as my favorite, even over Moiraine in her more submissive state (if you could call it that), which is also another one of my favorite women (I guess).

 

She would the girl of my dreams  ;D. A girl that actually speaks her mind, and yet loves me, that would be pretty amazing. I haven't found one yet!  ;D

 

Personally, I think that "being young" is not a good enough excuse, there has to be some brains inside that head. They have to realize that everyone has changed enough so that they can't treat them like they did before. In The Shadow Rising, I believe Egwene sticks her tongue out at Rand multiple times. I'm 15, my girlfriends and friends that are girls never stick out their tongues when we banter. Another good example of childishness, and being ignorant of others.

 

Nynaeve, as I've said before, is positively the funniest character. She is one of the toughest characters in the story at the beginning, and turns out to be a softie for Lan, and obeys Rand willingly later.

 

We haven't discussed the Aiel men and women extensively, and I kind of want to see what everyone else thinks of them, so can we talk about those guys now?

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

In The Shadow Rising, I believe Egwene sticks her tongue out at Rand multiple times

 

My wife is 45 and will still stick her tongue out at me when I make a point she does not like. Women are very mature except when they aren't!  :D

[professorskar]

As for Nynaeve, I think a big part of her personality comes from the fact that she was the Wisdom of Emond's Field and so young.  Part of the reason why she's such a hard ass is because in that situation she felt if she wanted anyone to take her seriously she had to be extremely aggressive and not show anything that could be construed as a sign of weakness.