How is the board consolidation going?

[Azshaya]

Ahh, Kath

I'd like to make it clear now, that yes, I do like you Kath, HOWEVER

 

I'm not going to do a point by point rebuttal of every argument against moving you guys can come up with. I'm just looking for your feedback on the move and what we can do to make it more palatable

 

I would like to point out that prehaps the less then cheerful responce thats given is a sort of feeback.  However, you're asking how we can make the move easier, and the answer: There is no friggen way.  Lets look at this from another prespective.  We'll exclude the concerns over style and other arguements that have been given and look at this from another angle.  Our offsite board, have become a second home to us in many ways and we've become rather attached to us.  Now, you're simply telling us to 'bugger off, screw them and move on you big babys'.  So now, Kath, put yourself in our shoes:

 

All we're asking is that if you want to be part of DM, you post here

 

Kath, you are no longer allowed to post at cracked, if you consider yourself a member of Dragonmount, post here.  Did you feel a slight twinge? Although my voice carries no administrative weight, and the refrence I made wasn't the exact thing, tell me, how would you feel if that was really the case? That a place you've posted and spent oh so many hours on is to be taken away.  THIS is my primary concern, and Im sure its others as well.  Oh yes you could argue "Oh its not being taken away, you're still allowed to post on them", however I adressed that in my next paragraph.  While I'm probably restating what some of my fellow members have posted, Im trying to make you understand the resistance, and the main reason why a lot of people are unhappy, because afterall, you did want "feedback"

 

But you can't call it Dragonmount. That's all we're asking

We're not, infact we've never once called out offsite boards Dragonmount

However, a certain area of concern may arise if you mean that we say we do not affiliate ourselves with DM.  You said to others that they would be allowed to make their own WoT site, and you'd link it, but it would be unaffiliated with DM.  Now, considering you're enforcing a date, to have all offsite baords sut down, once this date passes, the offsites become their own site.  So, in essence, we'd be our own WoT board, and under your rules, unaffiliated with DM, Q.E.D.  This is dangerous ground kath, as I think i can safely say, if it came down to it, the VAST MAJORITY of SGers and BTers will stick with their offsite boards, and will never post on DM's SG and BT boards.  So since they would ne a part, you'd essentially have to reconsruct both ORGs, and build a new system, as using the current one would be stealing from the original 'non-affiliated' site.

 

I would also like to mention that this is a rather scrict statement, and others you've made as well.  If I wanted that sort of thing I'd join TV.net

 

Look Kath, there HAS to be a middle ground here

Prehaps the best way, is that YOU post here, all the main reasons why you wish for their to be a transference.  As many members have said, there was no real communication, just an "close then down".  So now, I think would be the best time for communication.  We've communicated, now its your turn.  This time don't go through the haeds of the ORGS.  post and tell it, so every member can see it for themselves.  Only then will anything be worked out

[Gerrendus]

Look Kath, there HAS to be a middle ground here

Prehaps the best way, is that YOU post here, all the main reasons why you wish for their to be a transference.  As many members have said, there was no real communication, just an "close then down".  So now, I think would be the best time for communication.  We've communicated, now its your turn.  This time don't go through the haeds of the ORGS.  post and tell it, so every member can see it for themselves.  Only then will anything be worked out

 

Rai makes a lot of sense with that point

[Karana Majin]

Let me tell you how this sounds to me.  I've been a member of DM since a few months after it "opened its doors".  I no longer remember whether that's 8 or 9 years now.  I've seen more changes and whining then you can shake a stick at.

 

The thing is, everyone NEEDS to be here, if they want to call themselves a part of DM.  Period.  To be frank, I thought SG and the BT were all but dead orgs because there was so little activity.  I am dead serious.  So you have tons of posts offsite?  Then why call yourselves dragonmount's black tower, or whatever?  Call yourselves something else and be your own fan site.  Or be here, and BE HERE. 

 

You can whine and complain and threaten all you want, trust me, I've heard and seen it all.  Gnash your teeth and rend your garments... talk about how "everyone will leave" and the orgs will need to be "rebuilt from the ground up", whatever.  Well, guess what.  No one is irreplaceable.  No one.  Kat could leave.  I could leave, Empy could leave.  DM would go on.  Threatening to leave doesn't build community.  Coming here, posting, and mingling builds community.  I know about the Band because of Corki posting on the Seanchan board, etc.  I had NO idea that the BT or SG was organized or active at all, because no one from there mingles elsewhere.

 

And Canuk... why do you need to scroll past the General Discussion board?  Don't you want to mingle with other DMers?  Meet people outside your own Org?  General is the best place to mingle without getting caught up in inside Org crap.  I encourage people to come here, try it, post, come to General, and get to know others.  Chances are, you just might *gasp* like people outside your own Org, once you try.  After all, we're all here because of the same fantasy series.  That's one thing we have in common, right there.

 

In no way did I mean to offend anyone, just letting you know that DM has withstood far greater storms than this.  DM 6.0, anyone?  The RP/Org split?  I don't think you will find anyone who doesn't think that eventually turned out for the best.  But the key was, we tried it!  We had an open mind.  (And those who didn't, left, and we went on without them.)

[Loreina]

I like having everything in one place. I don't belong to BT or SG, because I'm finding it hard enough to find the time to keep up with the three orgs I do belong to atm. But it sounds like they have changed too much to realistically move back here. Maybe they should just stay where they are. If they can't be happy here, there's really no point in them being here.

 

I am in the WT, the Ogier, the CoL, and I like to read the discussions and play Mafia games. As I said, having everything in one place is nice.

 

And I like having a PG13 rating on the site.  :)     

[JenniferL]

This is what I posted on this board, back in July of this year. There was a big thread, but this was on the first page.

 

Consistent branding across all DM affiliated groups

- Consistent handling of issues, problems, cases, etc

- More professional feel to the entire site if everything is on one

domain

- More than most WoT websites, DM is seen as representing WOT in

general. (Some places think we publish the books). Having forums

spread all over the internet is tacky and unprofessional and reflects

badly on the brand

- Banner ads on DM provide DM with revenue for upgrades, new servers,

faster bandwidth. [Jason hopes to more than double our connection speed in

the next 12 months]

- Spreading communication or announcements to all org communities is

FAR easier with one set of boards

- Having all boards in once place is much simpler for all members

both new and old

- Having forums all linked together encourages people to more easily

check new places out.

 

And yes, the Black Tower Org is part of DM. Tayol was hired by me to run that Org.  That's why I'm allowed to tell him to do things. The only Org Leader that wasn't hired by me to run their Org is myself, and that's simply because my joining the DM staff dates back to before Jason created the position of Community Admin. I'm old school, yo.

 

If Tayol decides that he would rather not work for me anymore and would like to run the BT as it's own site, that's fine. He's been a good Org Leader over the years and I have no doubt he'd be able to handle running his own site. All of you would be welcome to stay on as members here, regardless of if you are a member there.  I believe the WT Div had a similar situation. The former leadership elected to create their own site, rather than move.  A good chunk of people are members of both sites. It's not a problem for us at all.

[eclipse0]

So you're saying that if Tay wishes to maintain his site, you will no longer continue to allow him to head the Org here?

[HotW Moiraine]

You need to have a different colour scheme available. Like black and grey or somethinf :D

[JenniferL]

Yes, that would be consistent with everything I've said since July.

 

Look, we're doing everything we possibly can to make this move go smoothly.  I know Jason and Tayol have been talking via email about the move. I've talked to him about it. We know your concerns and we are trying to respond to them. That's why I started this thread.  The clock is ticking for you guys to decide and I want to make sure I've done everything I possibly can to make this work.  If you need something, we'll do our very best to provide it for you. 

 

Why not try it and see if you like it? Why not have your leaders request boards on DM so you can see how it will work here and whether or not we can provide what you need?  Be flexible and open to new things.  There were people in my own Org who were convinced that consolidating the boards was the devil, but now they love it.  They see the advantages to having everything in one place.  If you still don't like it, fine. But then we can both say we gave it our best shot.  The offsite boards don't have to be shut down until January, so you could have both sets open for a time with no complaint from us.

 

Why not give it a shot?

[JenniferL]

You need to have a different colour scheme available. Like black and grey or somethinf :D

 

We were actually discussing how we can make user created themes available for the site this afternoon. It's coming.

 

And fix your avatar. It's not appropriate for this site.

[eclipse0]

If you want us to do a test run, I'm sure we can manage that.

[JenniferL]

Well then, tell Tayol you're willing to try it.  We suggested it to him last week and he hasn't followed up on it.  I can tell him until I'm blue in the face  that this move will be a good thing, but he needs to hear from YOU, his members that you're willing to try it.

 

Oh and SG, if you aren't happy with how your permissions are set up, have Ubel come talk to me or Matalina.  Mat set the boards up exactly as Ubel specified. If you need something different, we can do it. The WT Org has probably fifteen distinct user groups to deal with overlapping permissions, so having many groups isn't a problem.  We can set things up so the Faction Leaders only see what they need to see. We just need to know what that is.

[Barmacral]

I was the one who initially suggested the test run, and quite frankly, I'm saddened to see that the Org leader's who are concerned about the merge haven't tried it yet. I think its a great idea, its a good chance for you to all try out the DM system and decide whether you want to split to your own off-site (as mentioned, there is precedent) or stick with DM.

 

And as far as rebuilding an org from the ground up... the staff are very aware of the possibility and are quite willing to do it if need be. Personally I think it doubtful that we'll need to do that for any org.

 

And Cannustuki (spelling?), they can't tell you to stop posting at the BT site. They can do exactly what they are doing though. They want DM sites to be on DM. Which is perfectly fair of them. And those sites that are not going to come back to DM? They can go their own way, they aren't on DM though, so they won't stay a part of it.

 

We aren't doing anything wrong here on DM, and I think you've only gotten a little of the information thats been put out there for you. If you've got questions about it, send me a PM. I don't know all the answer's, but I should hopefully be able to answer some of them for you. On the same note, you can also send Jason or Kathana an email (not PM, email) and they will both get back to you as soon as they can.

 

And Hax... I think I love you right now. You made my day.

[Gerrendus]

If I'm reading this one part right you essentially just said that Tay cannot maintain a site which, as I believe you have previously stated, would be totally separate and distinct from Dragonmount, and also be a Dragonmount ORG Leader. Didn't you yourself say you were moderator of a WoT site that was seperate from Dragonmount? Now i realize there is a difference between Admin and moderator, yet it still remains the same issue.

Like Rox Said:

Besides, there is no way you can stop us from having a board that is unaffiliated with DM, states it is unaffiliated with DM, but happens to have the same members and a similar theme. That's like you going over to a board on GameFAQs which has been dedicated to tWoT (since there was a game) and telling off all of the members over there who are members at DM as well and telling them to come on home.

 

yet you also said:

No one can force you to be a member here or to post on our forums. But why call yourself a member of Dragonmount then? All we're asking is that if you want to be part of DM, you post here. If you'd like to make your own site, with whatever rules, regulations, graphics, etc. you'd like, we'll be happy to link to it. But you can't call it Dragonmount. That's all we're asking.

 

So you are essentially saying that if Tayol Wishes to have a Dragonmount unaffiliated site, he must give up ORG leader Position here right? I don't know what Tayol's mindset is, but say hypothetically he chose to remain active on Dragonmount as well as head up his own site, why would that result in his removal? Are you also going to remove members who might be moderators/admins at other sites that are not affiliated with DM?

 

You essentially just made a statement that: "I have no issues with people keeping their off board sites as long as they do not claim they are affiliated with DM, however if they do that, they cannot hold positions of authority here at DM?"  You mentioned Cracked.com and how you are a moderator there.  You would then be penalizing others for doing exactly what you are doing.

[eclipse0]

Tay brought it (a test run) to the community and I don't need to tell you that we are still very skeptical. He won't force us to do something we don't want to and ultimately left the decision in our hands.  Plans have been in the works to try it next week. So yes, he has followed up with us.  Please don't try to make him seem like the bad guy here. He has an obvious affinity for BT's feelings as a whole, and to me that makes a good leader.

 

Personally, I don't see why if BT.net decides as a group to keep it's site seperate from DM, I don't see how he should be punished by having his position here taken away.  If BT.net becomes seperate from DM, it should just mean a re-structuring of the BT org's foundation here, it doesn't necessarily require a leadership change. You yourself said you mod another community, why can't he run both seperately?

[Mightelove]

If we could move our entire site onto DM then I think SG would be just skippy with this move.  If we clicked on our org and it popped up as our familiar SG site with billions of posts and all of it's character intact, then we'd not care one whit.

 

As it is, we'll be losing everything we've built for the last several years.

 

As it is, I'm not entirely sure that this site can handle the entirety of SG moving over here, much less SG plus BT together.

 

 

[SinisterDeath]

3 Things.

 

1. Depending on which option org leaders choose information may not be lost... (Ie, being a subdomain of DM, Trial run info will still beon the old place, and relevant threads will be copied over ect ect.)

 

2. There is a reason for this consolidation, The orgs are apart of DM, yet how can you call your self apart of DM, if everyone spends there time nto at DM; How can you honestly call your self an Org of DM, and not just another Wot based community?

 

3. I have this feeling that many of those unwielding to the idea, is simply because, DM is PG13, and the offsites aren't exactly PG13...

I mean this alone gives me that idea..

plus the rules here, while livable for DM posting, i simply could not stand on my main forum. my personality wouldent allow me to enjoy the majority of my online communication (Barring msn) to be restricted to that degree

 

Give the admins a break, you may be stressed out about this, but imagine having to deal with this kind of stuff, being told Something is going to happen, and having people unwilling to at least 'try'? They aren't Big Brother or Facists. And the admins do have a life outside of DM to.

 

To fix a problem, you must compromise, Not compromising will only lead to conflict and strife. Stand up for your beliefs, just don't be unwilling to bend a little. Rand won't bend, and look at him? He looks 30, lost a hand and almost an eye, and has a hole in his side that won't heal. Do you really want to be in Rand's condition? Do you really?!

 

These are just my thoughts on this subject, not necissarilly those of the rest of the Staff.

 

Btw, Something we all should fear, is the possibility of orgs splitting, it does nothing but hurt both communities.

And at least looking through Jasons eyes, orgs that stay primarilly on off-site boards, are basically just advertising at dm, IMO *Again, not necissarilly Jasons or Rest of Staffs Beliefs*.

[laserline5]

Even if we were to move everything from SG over, more than 3/4 of the posts would need to be edited.

 

Who's going to put the time in for that?

 

DM is simply not going to transfer SG over here. This consolidation would essentially start a new org with no history. I understand what Kath is trying to convey here; that a DM-affiliated SG Org should be conforming to DM rules and be under DM control. However, we've splintered off far too much to ever be put under those rules. No doubt we can try to consolidate the boards, but honestly how many of the current SG members would you have coming here and participating actively? At best I would say maybe half if you're lucky.

 

Let me show you the future. What's going to happen is that the current SG members will just lose interest in DM and DM will attract new members to fill our spots. Eventually whatever used to be of the current SG org will be forgotten here at DM. Well what can you do? I don't know who's loss it would be. I know that no one wins though.

 

It's sad to say this but I really do think that it's time to part ways.

[MsDanya]

cracked.com isnt a WoT site..

 

and I just wanted to say that I agree  completly with Karana. so, not really anything new to add.

 

[Tigara]

I haven't read through all the posts, but I get the main points. What I've gathered so far is:

 

SG and BT and maybe the Band are the only ones with problems. Why? Because they have very nearly separated in all but name from DM. Their members post only at the off-boards with their own rules and now don't want to come out of their comfy boxes. If I recall, the off-boards were made for back-ups to post at when DM would go down. DM will not have as many problems now, so the off-boards essentially have no more purpose. It would appear that way, but some Orgs have taken their emergency boards, added so many fatures and fun stuff, that the members just want to stay there. They contribute little to none to DM itself.

 

My verdict, the people with problems should keep their boards. They are practically their own fan-site anyways, so why not make it official. Just separate from DM and be doe with it. That is my opinion. If I offended anyone, I apologise in advance. I just gave my opinion.

 

I, for one, love the move. it's all in one place and don't have to visit 2 sites for every Org I'm in. (6), plus all my other sites. (5, including the one I do own)

[Roka]

I hear you Tigara and you raise good points, but are not aware of the background nor why things are the way they are. Especially this comment of yours "Why? Because they have very nearly separated in all but name from DM. Their members post only at the off-boards with their own rules and now don't want to come out of their comfy boxes." inticed me to respond.

 

 

SG, BT and the Band are pretty much big enough to be sites in their own right, certainly if they merged they could make a show even against DM. Basically, they are, besides WT, the only ORGs that actually could manage what Jason wanted in the first place, sites in their own right that DM acts only as a portal too (and vice versa!). That was the original idea by Jason, that is what he wanted all ORGs to do, that is what I, Tayol and Corki managed to do, and then, I still don't know what triggered this, Jason changed his mind and decides that he doesn't like our sites growing bigger by being affiliated to DM (despite actually wanting AND demanding that 3 years back when the ORGs started) due to (I'm pretty much quoting him here from his last email 2 days ago):

 

1. rules not being followed

2. sites having different quality standards

3. inter-connectivity not present

 

To all those I replied with what I considered a complete rebutal of Jasons reasons (to which he didn't respond but said he will talk to some admins, and thus, you now have this thread here I do believe).

 

1. PG13 rules: Both SG and BT try to follow DM PG13 rules to the best of their abilities, BT has several mods in place that are told to remove any and all "bad" language.

If something slips through here and there... nobody's perfect, things slip through on DM forums constantly. SG has less mods then BT does, but I do believe I've schooled my fellow SGers long enough not to be so bold in trying what BTers still dare to.

 

2. quality standards: is in the eye of the beholder in my view. Every ORG tries their best to make their webpage look as best as possible, so sometimes, smaller ORGs, can't reach the height that is obviously DM design (?), but give them a chance and time and they will improve. Other then that, it's all in the eye of the beholder, these boards for instance, for me, do not reach the quality of SG and BT designs, yet you do not hear me complaining about this site not reaching the desired quality.

 

3. inter-connectivity. Both SG and DM webpages have clear and visible links back to DM. DM has no links to these sites save what members post in their posts. If their is any interconnectivity lacking, it is on the part of DM, not SG, not BT...

 

 

 

 

I suggested a sollution to Jason. He said he could offer us say, http://btorg.dragonmount.com type of addies, so I said, if you want the ORGs to be more affiliated with DM, that is fine, I can understand that, but you can't just ignore those that have contributed to this site for so many years simply because you CAN get others. That is just spitting in their faces, you have to take their views and opinions into account, it IS the ONLY decent thing to do, therefore, I proposed the following:

 

 

1. Require every and any ORG/DIV/DG to have their official webpage on http://orgdiv.dragonmount.com. You provide links to these webpages on any and all DM menus. What ORGs put on these webpages is their own concern (with PG13 in effect of course), as long as they provide a clearly visible link to DM boards and include a DM logo (doesn't have to be big) on main pages.

 

2. ORGs/Divs can keep their offsite boards anywhere they like if they chose (or if not, then they have plenty of board space on forums.dragonmount.com), with one member account reserved for Jason, not admin rights, but mods and access to all boards so he can at any time check the going ons if he so choses.

 

 

 

Let me express this publicly, I want us to stay affiliated to DM. I will try my best to help achieving a consensus between Jason and communities under him, as should all. But, I say this with a clear head, stop d1cking around Jason, sooner or later, people will say no to you demeaning their work and saying it was all for naught in the end.

 

 

 

Roka

former DM Admin

former ORG leader

member since 2000

[bcxanth]

I seriously don't understand what the problem is here people. If you don't want to come to DM, don't. Nobody is making you. Keep your own sites, it's fine. Just don't claim you're affiliated with DM.  How you can even claim to be part of DM and then refuse to have anything to do with it, I don't even know.

 

Personally, though I've not had any part of the Org board changes as I began to get involved in the Orgs after the consolidation started, I did deal with it on the RP side. And although some grumbled, and some decided to leave, all in all it was a great change that made things much easier for everyone involved.

[Corki]

I see nobody from the Band has put anything in...time to change that.

 

Originally, I was dead against the move, as were many of members of my ORG, the Band of the Red Hand. The main reasons were the lack of communication over the move (I am an ORG Leader who never knew that one day there would be a consolidation), the loss of a large amount of data (3,800+ topics and 140,000+ posts) since we use proboards, space and authority. But like Roka, I want my ORG, the Band of the Red Hand, to remain part of DM, and as a result, I am doing my best to make sure we are. However, you will never take away my resentment over the handling of this whole matter.

 

I've seen improvements in the communication, but like many before me have said, it would have been much better to come to us first to talk about this rather than the heavy-handed approach that happened. But hindsight is a great tool.

 

There may be a solution to our loss of data. I happened to stumble across a proboards to SMF converter, even though SMF don't officially publish one. Before letting anyone near our offboard site, we are running test runs on another proboard site. A lot will depend on how successful these trials are.

 

Now, a lot of people have commented on the slowness of DM since everything has started to come over. Yes, I've seen this, but it will never be as slow as my university email account! Now, just so everyone can see this (but I will also ask this in my private correspondance with Jason and the admins), a couple of quick questions to the admins. If ORGs like SG, BT and the Band get subdomains, and considering our post count and activity, a) how will it affect the speed of these boards, and b) how will it affect the speed of subdomains (as I'm guessing it will be run of the same server)?

 

As for authority of subdomains etc, I won't be getting what I want exactly 100%, but I am willing to compromise, and like what I have been offered.

 

Now I understand completely why Jason and the admins want everything under one roof. All I hope is that they realise they handled the issue in the wrong way, and should anything like this appear in the future, they will learn from their lessons.

[JenniferL]

You guys should really try visiting Cracked before you compare it to DM. It's not a WoT site at all. http://www.cracked.com/

[JenniferL]

Also, we normally don't have a problem with people being members of other sites, holding staff positions there, or even starting their own.  I have several things I do in this fandom outside of DM myself.

 

But you can't tell me "Oh, our offsite boards are a whole other site that just happens to have all the same members and staff and promotions." Come on. It's either a completely seperate site or it's not. If it's completely seperate, then it shouldn't be any problem if the owner isn't part of DM Staff. If it's still part of DM, then your boards need to be hosted here.

[Tayol]

Sorry Kath il get back to Jason soon, I was at a funeral and have been catching up at work

 

And yes, the Black Tower Org is part of DM. Tayol was hired by me to run that Org.  That's why I'm allowed to tell him to do things. The only Org Leader that wasn't hired by me to run their Org is myself, and that's simply because my joining the DM staff dates back to before Jason created the position of Community Admin. I'm old school, yo.

 

I dont remember signing any contract or getting paid, or actually getting any thanks for this position. Its all volunter work!!!

 

I know about the Band because of Corki posting on the Seanchan board, etc.  I had NO idea that the BT or SG was organized or active at all, because no one from there mingles elsewhere.

 

How would you know what goes on in another org if yoiu havent even introduced or visited that org?

 

You also say we dont get involved with other orgs well your wrong about that, I was a member of the Green Ajah, the wolfies, the Cotl, SG and alot more orgs here. I have been around here for 5years now, so dont even think about saying I dont give a crap about DM or its activity. We invade other orgs, we promote our one power fights, we do alot of things.

 

Why havent I been active lately in other orgs, well I just got my degree, im out working in RL now and have only have night time to spend on my computer to mess about and develop my org.

 

Im sure everyone is the same way, you come home, you get into a grove and visit boards you like, do you think everyone has the time to visit every board or work on everything. Im sure Kath or Jason doesnt, Jason admitted himself he never visted the BT, so how can they make decisions based on community when they dont even know what their community wants.

 

I have said before I dont mind changing the offsite tag to DM, and for the existing boards to be a subdomain linking from the exisitng Farmhouse tag here at DM but that doesnt even satisfy some people.