Semirhage - Asha'man Warder?

[Majsju]

Tamyrlin: I’m trying to verify Rand’s impression he has at the end of book four, regarding the connection he cuts of Asmodean to the Dark One. He seemed to believe it was the connection directly from that individual to the Dark One. So what I am wondering is, is that connection key to transmigration?

 

Jordan: No, because what you are thinking of wasn’t a connection, Rand thought it was.

 

http://p079.ezboard.com/Second-QampA--Saturday/ftheorylandfrm30.showMessage?topicID=1.topic

[Luckers]

i always find it interesting when the extra bit bonding is discussed. i dont believe it is the same as the traditional warder bond at all. if it were possible to compell the bonded with the traditional, then why alter it? romanda and co discuss altering the bond, and the tower reds discuss the alteration as well. if yo could compell against a person's will, especially since it has been expressively prohibited by tower law, why would you need such an alteration?

 

The extra bit bond IS different from the current Aes Sedai warder bond. The current Aes Sedai warder bond contains elements for compulsion, but the extra bit specifically  includes inherent compulsive elements.

 

As for talk of the traditional bond. In the older days Aes Sedai routinely bonded men against their will, and therefore it was likely that the bond once contained inherent compulsive elements much like the 'extra bit' bond--though not certain. In any case both the nature of the bond and the ideals that rule that bond were altered.

[pxnsolid]

ok i figured id dredge up an old thread instead of starting a new one. the extra bit is not the compulsion. Logain states " I could have done without the extra bit" after he gave her the commands. the weave was developed by a married man. to use on his wife. now to my eyes, the description of tovine being bonded, is something akin to an artistic description of an orgasm. the extra bit. that could have been done without. i could very well be wrong...

[Darth_Andrea]

I actually think whats going to happen is that they will slap a A`dam on her and try to get stuff out of her like they did Moghy. However I don't think it's going to work. Were talking about the ultimate BDS&M freak. She's gonna laugh at them with everything they try to use to force her to talk. Hell she's gonna get off on it more than likely.

 

 

 

 

Darth_Andrea          

[BeaconofMercy]

There's so many crazy possibilities in this. I don't think there will be any Semirhage bonding, though the person who said she should be bonded with Caddy is my hero.

 

I think she'll be stilled. A fitting punishment for someone whose crimes are unusually cruel even for the Forsaken. That is...if Lews Therin doesn't bubble up and kill her in a fit of rage.

[lou]

they should just kill semi and be done with it. she certainly isnt going to share any useful info, and she is not going to allow any binding.

[berk]

I think that AS bonding DOES have a compulsion-like effect. Remember Alanna said she tried to "will" Rand but it didn't work? That implies that Aes Sedai can force their Warders to do things.

 

It is my understanding that it doesn't work on men who can channel, but men who cannot channel can be ordered when bonded. There are probably some other comments by Aes Sedai on this subject in the books, but I don't remember them.

 

 

 

Anywho, the best thing to do with Semi would be to question her then blast her with some balefire so the DO can't grab her back. IIRC, he couldn't get Rahvin back. Better wait a while first, though, or you never know what could happen due to the retroactive effects of balefire.

[lordofsoup]

its too late for that, Rand already lost his hand, and can barely see.  The time to Balefire her was just after it happened

[berk]

its too late for that, Rand already lost his hand, and can barely see.  The time to Balefire her was just after it happened

 

Was his vision harmed? I thought it was just being stunned from the blast, and his vision was fine.

[pxnsolid]

I think that AS bonding DOES have a compulsion-like effect. Remember Alanna said she tried to "will" Rand but it didn't work? That implies that Aes Sedai can force their Warders to do things.

 

It is my understanding that it doesn't work on men who can channel, but men who cannot channel can be ordered when bonded. There are probably some other comments by Aes Sedai on this subject in the books, but I don't remember them.

 

in TGH Moiraine tells Lan when she dies he will be compelled to find Myrelle.

 

Was his vision harmed? I thought it was just being stunned from the blast, and his vision was fine

 

I cant remember where it first came in, but various viewings/dreams whatnot have shown Rand as a blind begger. Also Nynaeve comments on something wrong with his eyes, but not having hte time to take the time to figure out what.

 

 

[Barnabas]

I have to say im surprised it took a few pages with no mention of this thought, so thankyou to pxnsolid. I just completed a re-read of the series last week, and was thinking over the bond and have to admit, it would seem quite odd if the "extra bit" is the compulsion part.

 

I recall the comment Logain makes, not only does he say "i could have done without the extra bit.." but also "..you arent a wife" or something to that effect. Which was after the "artistic orgasm" if you will. When you couple that with it being devised by a married man i dont really understand why you would think the extra bit is the compulsion aspect.

 

Feel free to tell me why im wrong though  :)

 

*Addition* was thinking a bit more, assuming the extra bit was compulsion, wouldnt it make sense for Logain to want it for an aes sedai, therefore making his comment about not wanting it a touch odd? just a little something extra :)

[berk]

I have to say im surprised it took a few pages with no mention of this thought, so thankyou to pxnsolid. I just completed a re-read of the series last week, and was thinking over the bond and have to admit, it would seem quite odd if the "extra bit" is the compulsion part.

 

I recall the comment Logain makes, not only does he say "i could have done without the extra bit.." but also "..you arent a wife" or something to that effect. Which was after the "artistic orgasm" if you will. When you couple that with it being devised by a married man i dont really understand why you would think the extra bit is the compulsion aspect.

 

Feel free to tell me why im wrong though  :)

 

*Addition* was thinking a bit more, assuming the extra bit was compulsion, wouldnt it make sense for Logain to want it for an aes sedai, therefore making his comment about not wanting it a touch odd? just a little something extra :)

 

I don't think him saying "he could have gone without it" really changes anything. He probably just finds the amount of control scary. And I believe he said "you aren't a wife" as a justification for the "extra bit" - because he cant trust her like he could trust a wife. I think the one the married guy figured out is EXACTLY the warder bond.

[Barnabas]

Must be honest, i dont agree with that at all, so i went and looked up the book, cos i think the way its written definitely makes the "could have gone without" important. So its in PoD; Ch26 The Extra Bit.

 

Theres the part about the vase shattering etc. Then Logain says " 'I could have done without the extra bit,' he sighed, patting the horse's neck; the animal snorted, but it no longer leaped about, 'yet i suppose it is necessary. You're hardly a wife. Be calm. Don't try to escape, don't attack anyone...." etc

 

So, at the point when he comments about an extra bit he hasnt even used compulsion yet, also my point about "you arent a wife" was that it implied they used this on wives, therefore it would be strange to compell them.

 

[pxnsolid]

thats just how i read it. the whole description for her reaction, the concept of it being developed for wife/sweetheart, I could very well be wrong, but the first time I read that, it was exactly what came to mind.

[Luckers]

The comment, to me, seems to directly relate to her reaction to the bonding--i.e. she sighs in reaction to the kiss. It was her reaction that he could have done without--after all she isn't a wife.

 

They bonded the Aes Sedai specifically for the control it gained them. That was always the intention. Logain bonded two. If he could do without that compulsive aspect he need merely have shielded them.

 

The comment was specific to the kiss used to make the bond.

[Reiver]

The comment was specific to the kiss used to make the bond.

that's what i though too. That he was refering to the method of bonding (compared to Aes Sedai's hand laying) rather than any extra stuff in the weave.

There's a bit (can't remember which book) that talks about unnecessary hand movements from people using the one power in creating their weaves and how when novices learn that as the way to make the weaves they can't unlearn them (thins like the throwing motion on fireballs). I took it to mean that the method they'd learnt was via a kiss as it was discovered and that was the way they had to do it now.

Interesting to see how this effects the handless rand since therewont be flame shooting from at least one set of fingertips now.

[Mr Ares]

It is my understanding that it doesn't work on men who can channel.

It doesn't work on men holding saidin. Not just able to, actually holding it.

 

blast her with some balefire so the DO can't grab her back.

They don't know He can bring the Chosen back. As far as they know, that would just result in further damage to the Pattern to no gain beyond that which could be achieved without that damage.

 

they should just kill semi and be done with it.

Would people be so willing to propose this solution if it was their hand that had to wield the knife?

 

Theres the part about the vase shattering etc. Then Logain says "'I could have done without the extra bit,' he sighed, patting the horse's neck; the animal snorted, but it no longer leaped about, 'yet i suppose it is necessary. You're hardly a wife. Be calm. Don't try to escape, don't attack anyone...." etc

I think the quote is perfectly clear. He could have done it without the extra bit, but he believes it necessary, because she is hardly a wife. The extra bit is the compulsion. If she were a wife, it wouldn't be necessary, and he would have done it without.

[Reiver]

they should just kill semi and be done with it.

Would people be so willing to propose this solution if it was their hand that had to wield the knife?

Semirhage is sort of the equivalent of Hitler or Pol Pot in Rand land. One of the most unspeakable things to have ever walked the earth. There'd be no hesitation!

[Mr Ares]

they should just kill semi and be done with it.

Would people be so willing to propose this solution if it was their hand that had to wield the knife?

Semirhage is sort of the equivalent of Hitler or Pol Pot in Rand land. One of the most unspeakable things to have ever walked the earth. There'd be no hesitation!

I've not known many people capable of unhesitating, premeditated murder.

[Reiver]

Hardly murder unless you're some shrill ultra pinko bent on self destruction. Only a darkfriend would want to keep her alive. ;)

[Mr Ares]

Hardly murder unless you're some shrill ultra pinko bent on self destruction. Only a darkfriend would want to keep her alive. ;)

Murder is murder, no matter who you're killing. And how many people have you killed?

[lou]

i wasnt proposing murder in the sense of hindsight. semi's crimes are undisputed and warrant a death sentence under tower law, or any law of randland.

[Tel Janin]

Eventually, one of the captured Forsaken's gonna hafta let the recycling cat outa the bag.  Will it be Semi?  :o

[Reiver]

Murder is murder

What elegant wordsmithery ::)

 

I prefer to think of it as retro-active self defence. killing doesn't = murder.

 

 

[mb]

About Semirhage becoming a Warder, not sure if that would actually happen but it could be fitting.

 

For they to kill Semirhage without it being murder, either she would be the first to attack or she would need to face trial and be convicted.

 

About only a Darkfriend wanting her alive; that to me would be doubtful.  Nynaeve and Elayne wanted Moghedien alive because of her knowledge.