Transition - Our World to the Age of Legends

[Luckers]

So I've said most of this before, though not for some time, and an idle comment by Robert got me thinking about it again. In any case, my premise in this thread is that was know WoT is in our future (and our past, but ill leave that discussion for another time). But that being said, it is never stated how our world came to be the world we know and love other than that it was the appearence of the ability to channel that ended the first age. So that is where we leave what is directly cited, and yet still there are certain things we know.

 

What We Know

 

1. A cataclysm did indeed occur. Whilst we don't know much of the geographical landscape of the Age of Legends, we know an event occured of such a degree of destruction that all traces of modern cultures, religions, technologies and ideologies were wiped out except from minor artifacts and mythological knowledge.

 

2. This cataclysm resulted in a singular unified culture. This means that it was prolonged--at least four generations of struggle, historically speaking, for the complete replacement of the participants previous culture in replace for the new survival-based culture. Whilst its not nessasary for there to be that many channeling generations (concidering their nature they would naturally be seperated from the normal cultural socialisation, and given their change of status to 'servants of all' they would have reason for shifting their cultural perspective. More on that in a moment).

 

In truth this all makes sense. The prolonged struggle for survival provides for the singular cultural base (lots of people died, and those that didn't unified to survive), and it provides for the nature of that culture--the social advancement through service to society as a whole, the strong emphasis on peace between people, etc. So lets for a moment look at the nature of that change. What new things came to between now, and the Age of Legends.

 

New Things

 

1. Channeling. Duh.

 

2. The aforementioned cultural change.

 

3. The Ogier.

 

4. Later the Voice and the Nym, and the relationship between them, the Ogier and the Aiel.

 

So What Happened To Our World?

 

Up until now I've been addressing changes we know occured. But why, what happened? Now we move into the realm of guesswork.

 

The first thing i think that occured is some form of war involving channelers. The fact that RJ specifically states that the appearence of channeling ended the first age and the occurence of the cataclysm are the basis of this opinion, but the most interesting fact for me is the name... Aes Sedai. Servants of All, and more importantly THEIR servants, the Da'shain Aiel, those dedicated to peace in battle.

 

Why people with that power might name themselves servants is obvious. Placation of the public combined with an actual intention to use that strength to serve the greater good. But why, I ask you, would a group of people swear themself to peace in battle in a world that didn't even remember war? And why would they serve the Aes Sedai?

 

My belief, combining this with the fact that the appearence of channeling ended the First Age, is that there was a war. A war so devestating it almost wiped out all life on the planet. Who struck the blow remains a mystery. As I see it there are three possible scenarios.

 

1. The channelers struck it, not realising the effect, and stepped when they realised the reality of what they had done to aid those they'd hurt.

 

2. It was struck in the name of fighting the channelers, and the channelers stepped in to save lives, swearing that they only wished to help in the face of the disaster when met with suspicion.

 

3. It came as a result of the clash between the two sides.

 

Depending on which you believe, the Aiel would either be soldiers on the side of the channelers or the enemy of the channelers. Myself i believe the latter is more likely, but yeah....

 

What Came Next. Breaking 1.0

 

As I said above, this cataclysm was likely prolonged. Pssibly the world was driven into a winter, or a toxic state. Somewhere between 400 to 1000 years, and harsh. Based on the way society ended up i believe that the Aes Sedai were the direct and only source holding of extinction during this time, perhaps by maintaining areas of land--i believe this mostly because of the way the Aiel serve the Aes Sedai--it even occurs to me that this might have been the source of the creation of the stedding. We know the power can create that effect, and if whatever danger originated from some form of channeling based threat then it makes sense. But meh.

 

But why am i so certain that it was so prolonged? I mean i've given a lot of cultural mumbo-jumbo, but really...?

 

Well, another influence is the similar nature of devices that appeared between now and the age of legends. Concider--portal stones, contact with the Ogier and the Finns, the creation of the Nym, the appearence of the Voice, specifically within the servants of the Aes Sedai.

 

There is a trend there. Other places, and growing things. My guess is the stress was great, and the Aes Sedai knew that their population couldn't be sustained on the planet as it was. I suspect they began to look for ways to flee, began to look for other realities. Thus appeared the portal stones and provides the basis for the Agreement with the Finns, who by all examples appear more trouble than their worth, unless a person is in great need--and the nature of an Agreement suggest that it was a people in great need.

 

Ultimately they found the Ogier. A race with the ability to sing the land to life.  How it was that the Ogier came to migrate i dont know... perhaps they came of their own volition, as a ministry. Perhaps they were stranded. One fact remains, they came. And of more interest rather then their coming causing fear, it caused respect, and coincided with the attempt to artificially recreate their ability, first in humans then in the living ter'angreal we call the Nym.

 

So i think it was that with the aid of this new ability and the Aes Sedai's recreations, the world was sung back to life. In this new world a society grew from a single base, a single language. Based on the idea of gaining social status through serving the society, and the respect granted Aes Sedai and their servants who fought to serve, yet in rememberence of the cataclysm, power turned to a civilian state. The Ogier and the Nym, aliens though they were, held position of great respect, and (perhaps) the Ogier were given the places that previously served as sanctuaries for humanity in a shattered world.

[Orange Fescue]

Luckers, it has been my understanding--read in some FAQ or thread somewhere--that our civilization ended when the two giants, Mosk and Merk, fought each other with spears of fire.

 

Less poetically, our civilization ended when two super-powers, the Soviet Union/Moscow="Mosk" and the United States/America="Merk", fought a nuclear war in the 1990s. The genes allowing channelling were mutations caused by radiation from the bombs that broke the world.

[runner1]

Interesting theory.  You left out the Dark One and the Creator though.  How do they factor into the WOT world and the world before?  In the books, it is stated that the Dark One was bound by the Creator since creation right?  (or something like that?) So...how does the Dark One and the Creator fit into all of this?  Why did those in the 2nd Age (AOL) forget about the Dark One?  I've speculated that the Dark One and the Creator is what we know as the Devil (shai'tan=satan) and God in our world.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Highly speculative, of course ... and interesting.

 

I won't rehash old objections again, but one thing did catch my eye.

 

It is possible that (in whatever Age it occured) the investigations that led to the creation of the Portal Stones, etc, did not lead to the discovery of the Ogier, but rather, were precipitated by the arrival of Ogier.

 

When Covril discusses the use of the Book of Translation, she says "We must leave this world eventually, so we can come to it when the Wheel turns."  While not definitive, that carries the possible connotation that it is Ogier who found this world, not that others found them.

 

It has been speculated that the Book of Translation works along the same principles as the Portal Stones.  I propose that it may be the source of those principles, for this world.  That would put the gift of the Ways into a nice cyclical perspective, if nothing else.

 

This is one possible way that I think of it ...

 

1st Age - relatively long, fairly primitive, man and animals living together, Wolfbrothers among the special abilities present.

 

Transition Event: Arrival of the Ogier

 

2nd Age - Exploration of abilities related to the Ogier and life/growing things, the Voice.  Wolfbrothers/connection to animals wane through this Age.

 

Transition Event: Discovery of Channeling ... possibly by the creation of the Nym (a fairly good combination of "growing power" and the One Power).  [This would also explain why the Nym have very dim memories of Wolfbrothers]

 

3rd Age - The Age of Channeling, marked by the rise of a One Power technology based culture, which destroys itself with the Bore and the Breaking, the second half of which is dedicated to fixing that problem (ie current events)

 

Transition Event: Tarmon Gai'don, followed by the eventual dissapearance of channeling

 

4th Age - Age of Mystical connections - not only with nature (Wolfbrothers) but with the Pattern (Min's viewings, Hurin's "smelling" of events) and low level science based technology.  Source of our mythologies like the Druid traditions, Atlantis, etc.  Not necessarily very peacful/harmonious though ... at least not universally.  Mat's "dragons" are supposed to kill alot of people.

 

Tansition Event: I'm guessing an Ice Age here.  We know from Thom's comments that there is supposed to be an Ice Age, and that would wipe out the technology fairly well, but the survivors could take mysticism and mythology with them, leading to:

 

5th Age - Us.  When the Ice Age ends, mystic powers begin to dissapear, leaving man to exploit science and only science, but leaving the tales of mystic powers/places behind.

 

Transition Event: Probably originally envisioned as a nuclear holocaust/WWIII, given the time period when Jordan developed this world and references to "Mosk" and "Merc".

 

6th Age - After us.  No idea what Jordan envisioned here.  At least a fair chance that the Dark One is involved, since its speculated that there is more than one way to loose him, and more than one Age that has to fight him.

 

Transition Event: Hard to say ... but probably whatever puts the Dark One back in his place, assuming that he got out.  Alternatively, it could be a Flood, just for cool points.

 

7th Age - I picture this one as fairly paradisical, high technology, when mankind "ruled the heavens and the stars" but ....

 

Transition Event: The Big Reset.  Probably Earth bombarded with meteors (fire raining from the skies), resulting in a planetary reset, but still permitting a very, very few physical items to survive (like the Mercedes hood ornament).

 

(Please note ... if it does turn out that Jordan said, somewhere, that the Age of Legends is in fact the Second Age, then the arrival of the Ogier could simply follow the discovery of channeling as part of the Second Age, rather than being a transition event, and the Breaking is then the obvious Transition Event from 2nd to 3rd.)

 

The reason that I place us more closely after the Third Age than before it is that the mythology of our current world seems to have much more detail (specific correlations between Mat and Odin, Rand and Tyr, and a myriad of others) than the Third Age seems to have of us.  That would tend to indicate that the Third Age is closer in our past than we are in its past.  Of course, we never see the actual stories connected to Mosk and Merc, or Alsbet, or Matarese ... if we did, then perhaps the opposite would be true.

 

Please, please note again ... I freely and fully admit that the above is highly speculative at best, and while I think it can fit, it is certainly not the only sequence that could fit.

[Tyrell]

I don't mean to be nit-picky, but I thought that Dai'shain was "pledged to peace in battle" Idunno what Da'shain means, but Aiel means dedicated methinks, so possibly dedicated to peace?

 

Forgive me if I'm wrong, my old tongue is horrible (it's in a jar, and fur is growing on it).

[Luckers]

Luckers, it has been my understanding--read in some FAQ or thread somewhere--that our civilization ended when the two giants, Mosk and Merk, fought each other with spears of fire.

 

Less poetically, our civilization ended when two super-powers, the Soviet Union/Moscow="Mosk" and the United States/America="Merk", fought a nuclear war in the 1990s. The genes allowing channelling were mutations caused by radiation from the bombs that broke the world.

 

The reference to Mosk and Merk comes in book one as one of the stories Thom know, along with Martarese, Anne the Wise Councilor, Lenn who flew to the moon in the belly of an eagle made of fire and several other such obvious references. They were intended only to show that our world is the past of the modern world.

 

Mosk and Merk are never linked as the cause of the end of our world, and RJ never implied that a nuclear confrontation between the two resulted in genetic mutation--or indeed that any form of unnatural genetic mutation caused the appearence of channeling.

 

 

 

 

Sorry, i gotta jet to work. More on this later.

[Briwan Dragain]

I think you're right, Tyrell. Luckers made a few interesting points, I tend to follow more with Robert's points, though... admittedly, I've not given this much thought. Lol. Although, I do think the Dark One is sealed in completely with Rand.

 

It's possible, and I think very likely, that future ages have to deal with him until he's completely forgotten about (perhaps his influence dies out because he's sealed firmly by Rand, or the Dragon or whatever, and his creatures and such are eventually fully eradicated.)

 

Just speculation.

[Luckers]

Interesting theory.  You left out the Dark One and the Creator though.  How do they factor into the WOT world and the world before?  In the books, it is stated that the Dark One was bound by the Creator since creation right?  (or something like that?) So...how does the Dark One and the Creator fit into all of this?  Why did those in the 2nd Age (AOL) forget about the Dark One?  I've speculated that the Dark One and the Creator is what we know as the Devil (shai'tan=satan) and God in our world.

 

I do not concider that to be very likely. For one thing the Dark One in it's nature is not comprable to the idea of Satan, who as a fallen angel simply does not have the power to be a creature like the Dark One, and the Creator shows no signs of being any form of benevolent deity of the kind the christians speak of. The Creator/Dark One nature has much stronger links to Zoroasterianism, if any religion, but honestly i think it unlikely. But, for more on that, check out the thread on the nature of the Creator. http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,20545.0.html

 

In terms of this specific topic, the Dark One is unknown, and given the varience in nature between the Dark One and Satan then we know that the modern worlds understanding of Satan is flawed, which implies a great deal of time has passed since the Dark One influenced the world. Furthermore given the Creators stance of non-intereference i see no direct influence from either that changed the nature of the way the world grew from our own into that of the Age of Legends. So basically, by my theory, i didn't forget them, they just had no relevant influence on that period of time.

 

It is possible that (in whatever Age it occured) the investigations that led to the creation of the Portal Stones, etc, did not lead to the discovery of the Ogier, but rather, were precipitated by the arrival of Ogier.

 

When Covril discusses the use of the Book of Translation, she says "We must leave this world eventually, so we can come to it when the Wheel turns."  While not definitive, that carries the possible connotation that it is Ogier who found this world, not that others found them.

 

It's certainly possible, but I don't really think it likely--personally! Mainly because that comment applies just as strongly to the idea that they were asked to come out of aid. Furthermore the nature of the progressions seems out to me. The Ogier world is harder to reach, so based purely on the humanistic side it seems more likely the portal stones came first. Lacking any evidence that the Ogier were the instigators--which yeah, i admit, the nature of the Book of Tranlastions infers to be possible--i think the progression suggests otherwise.

 

Look Robert, I read your idea of what happens--its certainly possible, but i simply see no connecting logic. The idea of this thread was to suggest a series of events based on things we know occured between the Age of Legends and our own Age. Every suggestion i made is based in that. Yours.... why? Why do the Ogier hold positions of such respect? How did their function form? Why are Aes Sedai servants of all? Why do the Aiel serve them? Why is it nessasary that the Aiel foreswear violence? Why do the Aiel specifically have a role in the songs of growing? Why does AOL society have such an immensely strong emphasis on public service even over money, power and strength? Why does AOL have such a unilateral culture? Why do they all speak the same language? What happened to our society, and more specifically why is there no remenant of our culture?

 

 

I get in the loose nature of our knowledge anyone can suggest a timeline provided they have some degree of intelligence--and you have more than that. Nevertheless i think you misunderstood the nature of this thread.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I guess that, in regards to the nature of this thread, my point would have been "I don't see a logical progression."

 

The way I visualized it, the "total reset" occurs between our Age and the Age of Legends ... so there isn't really much of a logical connection between the two.

 

However, I did propose a logical sequence in the other direction: from Randland to our world ... namely, a cataclysmic Tarmon Gai'don (some alteration of geography), followed by the Age of Mysticism (with the kind of abilities that appear in some detail in our mythology), followed by an Ice Age (more potential for geographic shift), followed by us.  A transition from Mystic powers to Science.

 

So, what I'm saying is, regarding the purpose of this thread, I think it goes the other way around.

[Lunan]

um i'm sorry i seem to have missed something

 

what is "THE VOICE"?

[Davian93]

what is "THE VOICE"?

 

They may be referring to the voice at the end of tEotW:

 

TITLE: Eye of the World 

  CHAPTER: 51 - Against the Shadow 

  I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL. 

 

Although its a very real possibility that I am wrong.

[RobertAlexWillis]

"The Voice" is a talent, or perhaps Talent, referred to by Lews Therin in the Prologue of TEoTW, and seen in Rand's AOL flashback in TSR ch 26.  It was found, although probably not exclusively, among the Da'shain Aiel, and they used it to, in conjunction with Ogier and Nym, strengthen crops and achieve ideal growth and immunity to disease and blight.

 

While it is certainly possible that it can be used for other things, we have no descriptions of them.

 

Some speculate that the "Voice" will be used to help re-seal the Bore.  Others speculate that it will be rediscovered and used to help the land recover after Tarmon Gai'don.

 

The "Voice" is the source of the legendary "Song" that the Tinkers are seeking.  The Tinkers are descended, in some measure, from dissenters who left the Da'shain Aiel while they were travelling during the Breaking.  A garbled history of how the Da'shain used to use the "Voice" led to their quest for the "Song".

[raydurz]

Luckers, it has been my understanding--read in some FAQ or thread somewhere--that our civilization ended when the two giants, Mosk and Merk, fought each other with spears of fire.

 

Less poetically, our civilization ended when two super-powers, the Soviet Union/Moscow="Mosk" and the United States/America="Merk", fought a nuclear war in the 1990s. The genes allowing channelling were mutations caused by radiation from the bombs that broke the world.

 

That theory was one of the ones that was posted on the Compleat Wheel of Time FAQ. Just like Lenn is actually John Glen and the "Eagle" was Apollo 11.

[TurboZ]

So in all this are dinosaurs the future or the past? I have been wondering about this a lot lately. If we are the first age then ages are like 4 billion years long. However, what if dinosaurs are the first age, we are the 2nd, and the AoL is part of the third? Yes I know there is already a heated debate over AoL being 2nd or 3rd age.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

I agree, for the most part, with what RAW says. But I  don't think that we are now in the 5th age. The numbers, of course, don't matter, but I'd say we are 3 ages removed from Age Rand finds himself in.

 

Firstly, though this is hardly proof, I can't see a Mercedes Benz ornament surviving from the Fifth Age all the way to the Third Age.

 

And secondly, the cataclysm. I really don't see how some kind of meteor shower or anything like that could destroy a society that much more advanced that ours. Therefore, I think, either we are in at least the "6th Age" or "7th Age," or it is some other kind of cataclysm.

[Kura]

Well, I'm not sure which theory to go with or either. Luckers, yours seems better constructed, but I just feel RAW's better. Though, regarding the Ogier I've got a bit of a change with your theory Luckers. The AS are looking for a way out, create the portal stones, and end up in Finnland. They ask for a way to save their world, either they are led to the Ogier world by the snakes to the Ogier world, or both the Ogier world and the real world are destroyed, the foxes give humanity the voice, and the Ogier come to the 'real world'. I personally find the first to be much more likely, or a combination.

 

Somehow I get the idea that the first/second age (the one with the wolfbrothers pre-3rd age), the Ogier were there. It seems like a time that the focus would be on nature in its entirety, and that just fits with the Ogier, and maybe even the voice. Of course, this suggests that abilities can span ages, and that seems doubtful, but then again wolfbrothers seem to come twice a cycle.

 

Wait, random thought. Wasn't the wheel of time idea proposed by Ishy?  ??? haven't we been told not to trust the Nae'Blis? Either way, feel free to pick this apart. Its more of thoughts off the top of my head than any real theory.

[RobertAlexWillis]

And secondly, the cataclysm. I really don't see how some kind of meteor shower or anything like that could destroy a society that much more advanced that ours.

 

Um ... one single sufficiently large asteroid can cause an extinction-level event ... imagine getting pummeled by 5 or 6 ... or a hundred.  Pretty much everything would die.

 

Firstly, though this is hardly proof, I can't see a Mercedes Benz ornament surviving from the Fifth Age all the way to the Third Age.

 

In reality, a hood ornament wouldn't even survive from the Breaking to the time of Rand and his buddies, especially if it were buried for any meaningful length of time.  Jordan bent the rules on that one, whether we're the first age, the fifth, or the twelfth.

 

Wasn't the wheel of time idea proposed by Ishy?

 

Ummm ... no.  It was standard belief in the AOL, before Ishy was even born.

[DemandredFO]

The Wheel of Time is a Hindu concept, I think.  Anyway I'm really confused as to how the wheel works

[TurboZ]

So were there T-rex's walking around with Lews Therin in the AoL? What age were the dinosaurs?

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Um ... one single sufficiently large asteroid can cause an extinction-level event ... imagine getting pummeled by 5 or 6 ... or a hundred.  Pretty much everything would die.

 

 

Assuming, just for a second, that Ages last 3 thousand years, then you are telling me we won't have developed habitation on other planets in 6,000 years???

[Kura]

Wasn't the wheel of time idea proposed by Ishy?

 

Ummm ... no.  It was standard belief in the AOL, before Ishy was even born.

 

My mistake. ^^

[Luckers]

The way I visualized it, the "total reset" occurs between our Age and the Age of Legends ... so there isn't really much of a logical connection between the two.

 

Your visualization is hardly any form of emperic evidence... especially given the presense of artifacts and stories from our time specifically decrying a total reset between our time and the time of the books, much less the Age of Legends. Indeed, though it is only a pervasive social belief--which i personally disdain--the fact that these people think of their age as the third, and the Age of Legends as the second also speaks to this.

 

However, I did propose a logical sequence in the other direction: from Randland to our world ... namely, a cataclysmic Tarmon Gai'don (some alteration of geography), followed by the Age of Mysticism (with the kind of abilities that appear in some detail in our mythology), followed by an Ice Age (more potential for geographic shift), followed by us.  A transition from Mystic powers to Science.

 

And it's a nice progressional suggestion, but aside from high-jacking the thread, where is any evidence? As near as i can tell, in favour of your progression the only thing going for it is the fading of the ability to channel and the reapearence of non-channeling Talents--both realities skewed by our lack of actual knowledge about those states during the Third Age thanks to lax Aes Sedai investigative practices.

 

Beyond which, there is no evidence suggesting these mystical Talents can't exist in tandem with the ability to channel--aside from Min's which we've had no mention of, all the other new abilities have been present in a channeling population in the past. And as for the decline of that ability itself. Even at one percent it exists as dominent genetic trait--it's going to take a very long time to actually fade out of the population altogether, especially with the reapearence of male channeling providing for inter-gender channeling procreation.

 

So, lacking some external influence--which is possible, either through a machinism of the wheel or the Dark One, or even some unknown third party--i don't see the progression you suggest having much of a chance of occuring. And since there is no evidence that one of those external influences will take effect...

 

Yeah, its a potential progression, but one that has absolutely no basis in the story--which is not me saying its impossible, or even that i don't think that its likely--but lacking any sort of counter-play on any of the questions ive posed, or even an addressal of my theory on your part i can't really do anything but say what i've said, which i worry has come out aggressively, or even defensively... if it helps at all it wasn't meant that way.

 

I think part of it is that the modality of my post and yours are different. I took events we know to have occured in the past to create a progression that fits those points in getting between where we know the world to be now, and where we know the world is going to be by the time the Age of Legends rolls in. Yours is your feeling bust on your general visualisation of the world--which is valid, and im enjoying discussing it--they are just somewhat different in purpose. Perhaps we should concider splitting the thread?

 

 

I agree, for the most part, with what RAW says. But I  don't think that we are now in the 5th age. The numbers, of course, don't matter, but I'd say we are 3 ages removed from Age Rand finds himself in.

 

Firstly, though this is hardly proof, I can't see a Mercedes Benz ornament surviving from the Fifth Age all the way to the Third Age.

 

And secondly, the cataclysm. I really don't see how some kind of meteor shower or anything like that could destroy a society that much more advanced that ours. Therefore, I think, either we are in at least the "6th Age" or "7th Age," or it is some other kind of cataclysm.

 

I find it problematic that the our Age and the Age of Legends to be removed from each other by even one Age simply because of the causal link between channeling as the end of our Age and the basis of theirs. Specifically RJ has stated that the end of our Age is marked by the appearence of channeling, whilst meanwhile Tamyrlin, whose ring is the symbol of the highest power in the Aes Sedai organisation, was the first channeler (a reality i doubt, yet a reality that nevertheless speaks of this individual being a key figure in both the realities of the appearence of channeling, and the foundation of an organised channeling group, thereby linking the end of ours with the beginning of the structuring of theirs.

 

The other major issue i have with our age being the 5th through 7th ages is quite simple. What happened to evolution? They have dinosaur bones in this world, so we know it went through the entire prehistoric shebang. Why are we thinking that the cycle of time spans only the arc of human society? Even if it does, wheres the 60,000 years of pre-industrial human evolution?

 

Even if one of the theories about post-lineal encycliation (is that the right word Robert? Encyclication? Is it even a word? Bah!)--even if the thoeries about the Creator perhaps bending time out of a lineal progression into a circle AFTER a certain point resulting in a very limited temporal cycle for whatever reason (To exclude Dark One? A fit of pique?) then even then our age, if it is even included within the newly formed cycle, would be the initial point in that cycle.

 

We know that the transitional periods between Ages can last a conciderable time--the one between the Age of Legends and the Second Age lasted 344 years and belonged to neither age. A channeling war resulting in a devestated world allows for the mode of change.

 

Well, I'm not sure which theory to go with or either. Luckers, yours seems better constructed, but I just feel RAW's better. Though, regarding the Ogier I've got a bit of a change with your theory Luckers. The AS are looking for a way out, create the portal stones, and end up in Finnland. They ask for a way to save their world, either they are led to the Ogier world by the snakes to the Ogier world, or both the Ogier world and the real world are destroyed, the foxes give humanity the voice, and the Ogier come to the 'real world'. I personally find the first to be much more likely, or a combination.

 

It's certainly possible, though personally i feel that the initial human interactions with the Finns ended fairly unpleasently for both sides each time. You don't have to form treaties with people who help you out so easily.

 

The Wheel of Time is a Hindu concept, I think.  Anyway I'm really confused as to how the wheel works

 

The Wheel of Time appears in a whole bundle of eastern philosophies--mostly because they exchanged ideas much more freely than the structured ideologies of the west. Most of their thoughts appear in one form or another throughout the various religions.

 

But in terms of whats described in the book, the wheel seems much closer to the Hindu concept of the Kalpass. It's more like... spiral time than cyclical time. Basically with each turning you pass the same check points, the same sequences of events, but each turning also contains, and is extended and altered by the previous turnings, thus the nature of events does indeed evolve... this seems much more in touch with the way the Age Lace is described.

 

 

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Is is not a possibility that in our time in Randland, evolution is really just a myth? As in, not true? Im mean, that really doesn't account for dinosaurs and all that, but the "prehistoric" human beings could be the result of some really bizarre radiation effects of channeling effects, or something like that?

 

Because truthfully we haven't found fossils depiction transitional phases in animals, have we? Other than archaeopteryx, which idk about.

 

 

[DemandredFO]

I'm confused like others as to where in the wheel's line do dinosaurs occur.

[CUBAREY]

Just a querry. Since the end of the Age of Legends, technological knowledge has been almost totally forgotten. Many weaves  and talents have also been lost. But we presume that the Philosophical/Religous underpinnings for a circular time concept revealed by AS povs is an accurate depiction of the theory.  Now there have no pos directly on point by either the Choosen or LTT. So how can we intelligently talk about the different ages and our ages place in the cycle?