Turning into Shadow - examples?

[Dmitri]

I wonder if this was mentioned somewhere before - have we seen an example of a person/acting character of a book turned into Shadow via 13 Murdraal etc.? Have I missed something in the books? Or maybe RJ (We miss you...) spoke on this?

[Luckers]

It's been suggested that Sheriam is a victim of this, but personally i think that is unlikely. The only thing that RJ has said is that people who suffer from this have polarised personalities.... the same nature, only opposite.

[lou]

sheriam? i missed that one. i would have thought leane would have been more likely under that theory.

[Luckers]

Leane embrassed her physical side as a result of a loss of her channeling... not really a polarisation.

 

The theory about Sheriam is based mostly in the mystery of precisely how she ended up under someones thumb combined with the initial hints about her being a darkfriend. They were first spoken from her comments to Egwene about the process.

[Davian93]

Key argument against Sheriam: If she were turned, why would it be necessary to torture information about Egwene out of her?  As a member of the Shadow she would just volunteer it.  I personally am surprised that it hasn't happened. Long shot is that it happened to Taim at some point but he probably just went over on his own either before he met Rand or after Rand made it clear what his "role" was going to be.  I'm still up in the air on how I feel about the chronology of Taim going to the Shadow.

[Luckers]

As I said, i don't hold with it myself.

[RobertAlexWillis]

At the moment, Mazrim Taim is probably the most likely candidate for having been forcibly turned.  I would personally put the chances at almost exactly 50-50; either he has been a Darkfriend for years, or he was turned after being sprung from the Sisters that captured him in Saldaea.

[Davian93]

either he has been a Darkfriend for years, or he was turned after being sprung from the Sisters that captured him in Saldaea

 

I lean against that personally.  I know that the Seal would be the perfect present to win Rand's trust but would the Shadow willingly give up a Seal and then try to steal them back a few books down the line?  I know alot of people said, "No, taim looks too old to be a non-shadow channeler, he must have protection." but RJ stated at Dragoncon that Taim was actually much younger than Rand's initial estimate of 15 years of channeling so it is very possible that he came to Camelyn a non-shadow channeler and turned/was turned later.

[RobertAlexWillis]

RJ stated at Dragoncon that Taim was actually much younger than Rand's initial estimate of 15 years of channeling so it is very possible that he came to Camelyn a non-shadow channeler and turned/was turned later

 

I know.  Taim is in his late twenties, less than 10 years older than Rand.

 

I know that the Seal would be the perfect present to win Rand's trust

 

Especially since the Dark One can keep working on it, no matter where it is ... but go on ...

 

but would the Shadow willingly give up a Seal and then try to steal them back a few books down the line?

 

Yes.  You see, the Shadow had Herid Fel killed.  Why?  Rand had asked him if there was a reason to break the seals, and he had found one.

 

When Taim gave Rand a seal (presumably at Demandred's instruction) it was because the Shadow assumed Rand would do everything in his power to keep it safe.  The Shadow doesn't want them broken ahead of schedule, because for some reason, that will give Rand the opportunity he needs to fix the Bore.  This is part of why I think the Dark One is "widening" the Bore under the seal, and when he gets out, the Bore will be much "bigger" than it was even at the end of the War of the Power.

 

So.  The Shadow gave Rand a seal, thinking he would safeguard it.  But now, there are indications that he wants to break it (indications besides his "crazy moment" when Taim first gave it to him).  So, now they want them all back.

 

And yes, this is just my opinion.

 

Alternatively, if you find that theory too loony, remember how inept the "attempts" to steal the Seals were.  I'm not sure the Shadow was really trying that hard ...

 

No, taim looks too old to be a non-shadow channeler, he must have protection.

 

Maybe alot of people said that, but not me.  I think Taim is a Darkfriend (actually, I think Taim is Chosen) because he acts like a Darkfriend, gives orders to Darkfriends, acted like he knew there was something special about Dashiva, is corrupting the Black Tower far more than would be necessary for just his own gain, and because he really, really feels like a Darkfriend (Chosen).  Even before "Let the Lord of Chaos rule ..."

[Davian93]

I know.  Taim is in his late twenties, less than 10 years older than Rand.

 

RAW, just to note, I wasn't suggesting that you didn't know that.

 

Especially since the Dark One can keep working on it, no matter where it is ... but go on ...

 

I agree with your logic on that however I still wonder why they would give up a Seal for such a task but then desperately try to retrieve later on.

 

The Shadow doesn't want them broken ahead of schedule, because for some reason, that will give Rand the opportunity he needs to fix the Bore.  This is part of why I think the Dark One is "widening" the Bore under the seal, and when he gets out, the Bore will be much "bigger" than it was even at the end of the War of the Power.

 

Interesting theory...I would like to hear more if you have a more in depth theory on the matter (I'm assuming that you do...based on what I know of you)

 

Alternatively, if you find that theory too loony, remember how inept the "attempts" to steal the Seals were.  I'm not sure the Shadow was really trying that hard ...

 

There is the Chosen Social in KoD where Moridin mentions that finding the Seals is a top priority.  I would think that they may realize that they really really need them at this point.

 

Maybe alot of people said that, but not me.  I think Taim is a Darkfriend (actually, I think Taim is Chosen) because he acts like a Darkfriend, gives orders to Darkfriends, acted like he knew there was something special about Dashiva, is corrupting the Black Tower far more than would be necessary for just his own gain, and because he really, really feels like a Darkfriend (Chosen).  Even before "Let the Lord of Chaos rule ..."

 

Don't misunderstand me, RAW. I believe that Taim is likely a forsaken (I've even championed a faction stating this on Theoryland) and that he has been a DF for a while.  I am just up in the air as to when he turned. there is, in my opinion, some conflicting evidence as to when he turned. As follows:

 

1.

TITLE: Lord of Chaos 

  CHAPTER: 42 - The Black Tower 

  Abruptly he realized he was leaning on the table, holding himself up with sagging knees. And muttering, "You are dead! I am alive, and you are dead!" But he had not seized saidin. And neither had Lews Therin. Shivering, he looked at Taim and was surprised to see concern on the man's face.

"You must hold on," Taim said softly. "If sanity can be held, you must. The price is too high, if you fail."

 

This makes me wonder when Taim turned.  If he truly were a DF, I don't know that he would be this concerned or be able to fake it so well.  It always has seemed to me to be a genuine reaction.

 

2. The giving of the Seal as I've stated above.  I know you disagree and you do make an interesting argument.

 

3. The very presence of Dashiva makes me wonder.  If Taim was always a DF and or Forsaken, Dashiva's presence would be unneccessary.  He was planted along with Halima to help guide things and spy on activities of the Light.  If Taim was already in place, why have Dashiva there?  If Taim knew about Dashiva, why object to placing him with Rand (the perfect location to find out more of Rand's plans for the Shadow? 

 

I think that you and I have the same general opinion we just take different roads to get there.  Personally I would place Taim to being turned sometime right after LoC...but again that is just my opinion with little to back it up.

 

 

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

I agree with your logic on that however I still wonder why they would give up a Seal for such a task but then desperately try to retrieve later on.

 

Well ... honestly, I just don't see an attempt that could be foiled by Deira Bashere, alone, as "desperately trying".

 

There is the Chosen Social in KoD where Moridin mentions that finding the Seals is a top priority.  I would think that they may realize that they really really need them at this point.

 

Yes, well, if Moridin isn't just playing everyone else for fools, then they would need them because  Moridin knows that Rand may try to break them.  Something the Shadow didn't know when Taim gave the Seal to Rand.

 

"You must hold on," Taim said softly. "If sanity can be held, you must. The price is too high, if you fail."

 

I've thought that was one of Jordan's best deceptive lines since the moment I read it.  Every word of it is true ... for the Shadow.

 

Apparently the Shadow (and Moridin in particular) has a real desire ... almost a need ... for Rand to make it to Tarmon Gaidon intact.  Its one of the things I don't completely understand, but given the number of times that the Shadow really could have killed Rand, and didn't, it seems they would like him alive and functioning.  Its not the very highest priority, but it seems to be a pretty high one.  "Let the Lord of Chaos rule."

 

Taim was probably instructed to give the Seal to Rand, and to make sure nothing happens to it.  Then to exploit his relationship with Rand for the benefit of the Shadow.  All that goes in the crapper if Rand goes insane too early ... and "The price [of failure] is too high" ... for Mazrim Taim.

 

And it seems like such a nice guy line, too ....  ;D

 

Interesting theory...I would like to hear more if you have a more in depth theory on the matter (I'm assuming that you do...based on what I know of you)

 

Its all in here somewhere ... lol ... maybe I'll put it all together again sometime ...

[Davian93]

Taim was probably instructed to give the Seal to Rand, and to make sure nothing happens to it.  Then to exploit his relationship with Rand for the benefit of the Shadow.  All that goes in the crapper if Rand goes insane too early ... and "The price [of failure] is too high" ... for Mazrim Taim.

 

The thing with that explanation of the Seal is that while yes the Seal will gain Rand's trust but not enough trust to then let Taim know where the Seal is being guarded.  As for your explanation of the line...maybe, maybe not.  It could be a massive red herring but it could also point to Taim being turned sometime after Dashiva arrived at the Black Tower and that originally he was just another False Dragon with delusions of grandeur.

[Tyrell]

When wasthe 13+13 trick discovered? I've got a suspicion it was in the Trolloc Wars, but if it were early in the war of power then I may have a candidate.

[Mr Ares]

When wasthe 13+13 trick discovered? I've got a suspicion it was in the Trolloc Wars, but if it were early in the war of power then I may have a candidate.

I think Semi discovered it, so War of the Power

[Tyrell]

In that case, how about Graendal?

 

Sammael sometimes wondered about her. He never met her untill he chose to abandon a loosing cause and follow the Great Lord, but everyone knew of her, a dedicated ascetic, treating those with disturbed minds Healing could not touch. At that first meeting, when she accepted his initial pledges to the Great Lord, every trace of the abstemious benefactor was gone, as if she had deliberately become the opposite of everything she had been before.

 

Emphasis mine.

 

 

[Davian93]

I think Semi discovered it, so War of the Power

 

Semi preferred to break peoples' spirits through torture rather than just having them forcibly turned with the Power.  I don't think she was the one who discovered it...it doesn't fit her method of doing business.

[elmis]

Would he have to be turned?

 

I've always thought of Taim as kinda a free agent. He is down on his luck so to speak, but gets a break with Rands amnesty - in order to get in close with him he gives him the seal. Rand hooks him up with a setup beyond his imagination, a real power base, but then he gets tired of playing second fiddle, just as Sammael, Demandred and the other big guns, and becomes a Darkfriend. There's precedence for this kinda behavior, especially with the back story if the aforementioned two Chosen.

 

Wouldn't be too much of a stretch that the DO hooks him up with a Chosen sign, or even promises of Nae'blis, give the utter failure the other (male) chosen. He practically hands over 100+ channelers that are trained in  killing with the power, that is if he has such a tight grip on them as Logain belives.

 

Just my thoughts on the matter, but sometimes the simplest solution is the best. ;)

 

Tyrell is right, that Semi discovered it during the War of Power, and to me it seems like something extra cruel, and something we'd get a POV of, if it had happened. If it'll happen in the series (in the timeline of the books I mean), I think it'll be with someone we care at least a little for. A second tier Aes Sedai, or Asha'man, where we'd be all like: "Damn, I don't want that to happen to him/her!".

 

Like old lovable Damer Flinn, getting turned into a mean, old lecher of a man! :)

 

[DemandredFO]

Like old lovable Damer Flinn, getting turned into a mean, old lecher of a man! :)

Sounds like Balthamel.:lol

If that shadow trick was around just before Greandal swore, I could see it happening because Greandal is so unlike her pre-chosen self.

On to Taim, personally I believe Taim is Be'lal but I'll set that aside for the moment.  If indeed Taim were Chosen when Dashiva arrived there is an explanation for two chosen being there.  Taim was set to train dreadlords and so couldn't leave.  Dashiva was set there to wait for Rand and go with Rand when he chose Asha'Man to go with him; Taim was pissed at Rand taking Dashiva to make Dashiva that much better a choice.  On another matter, Taim couldn't have turned or been turned after LoC or during LoC because I don't see there being enough time for him to get his AOL knowledge, the "so-called Aiel comment", the Let the Lord of Chaos Rule", and others.  If someone from the light has been turned I think it has already happened.  One more thing on Taim, Ingtar was always nice to Rand and I certainly didn't see that one coming.

As to Sheriam being turned, I'll get back to you

[Nerevar]

In that case, how about Graendal?

 

Sammael sometimes wondered about her. He never met her untill he chose to abandon a loosing cause and follow the Great Lord, but everyone knew of her, a dedicated ascetic, treating those with disturbed minds Healing could not touch. At that first meeting, when she accepted his initial pledges to the Great Lord, every trace of the abstemious benefactor was gone, as if she had deliberately become the opposite of everything she had been before.

 

Emphasis mine.

 

 

 

Though that is an interesting idea, I'm a bit conflicted, as if lets say Mogheiden were to force Nynaeve to turn to the shadow, would they promote her to the rank of Chosen? Wouldn't she be in a more servile situation? Thats why I like the idea of Taim being turned because hes all dark but he hasn't attended any of the Chosen Socials so maybe hes not of that rank.

 

Any ideas?

[Luckers]

I think Semi discovered it, so War of the Power

 

Semi preferred to break peoples' spirits through torture rather than just having them forcibly turned with the Power.  I don't think she was the one who discovered it...it doesn't fit her method of doing business.

 

It was indeed Semirhage who discovered it. How that meshes with her normal MO I don't know, though she did spend alot of time playing around with people's minds as shown by her methods of torture, and her thoughts on her experiments on certain individuals in the War of the Power, but either way it was Semirhage.

 

As for Graendal, it's impossible. She was one of the first to turn, and that was prior to the creation of Myrdraal, much less the discovery of the method of turning people.

[Davian93]

It was indeed Semirhage who discovered it. How that meshes with her normal MO I don't know, though she did spend alot of time playing around with people's minds as shown by her methods of torture, and her thoughts on her experiments on certain individuals in the War of the Power, but either way it was Semirhage.

 

Yeah, I realized that after I posted earlier today.  just one of those little details that slip through the cracks if you haven't done a reread in a while.

 

As for Graendal, no just based off of her POV's.  There would surely be some passing thought of it had it happened instead of her thoughts of being among the first to pledge to the DO.

[lou]

i find taim's comment; "You must hold on," Taim said softly. "If sanity can be held, you must. The price is too high, if you fail." not much unlike moridin's at SL.taim seems to go back and forth on his issues with rand. kill him, dont kill him. very ishy-like. but taim has alot of those moments, doesnt he. he takes mannerisms from demandred (enough to make readers think he is demandred), he has done some things to make the other forsaken think of sammael, and has currantly been flying moridin's colors. very presumptuous for a mere darkfriend.

 

on the seals, i dont think the darkside has put too much effort into finding them either. i would think the seals would have to be present at SG to either fix them or break them. why not just let rand bring the seals to SG, there are other things to do first.

 

 

[Angel of Death]

Are you suggesting Taim IS Moridin? Well Taim first turned up BEFORE Ishy was killed. I can't recall when he first appeared on stage as a regular, but I still very much doubt that. Luckers or RAW it all apart for you.

[lou]

that is not what i am suggesting at all. actually i think it would further cement sir robert's theory that taim is indeed forsaken. who else would dare use thier methods? did you read my post?

[Nelal Hurcran]

It is possible that after Taim was "rescued" by the BA, they took him to SG, where he was killed. Then Ishy was put in his body. NOt very likly, though.

 

We know of a link between Mordin and Rand. It sometimes allows them to se eachother's face, and feel the other's emotions. I think Rand would have noticed if he had some weird connection with Taim.

Plus, Ishy is more of a puppet master, like Dem, taking an active hand when he thinks it nessisary, which is more often than Dem. Taim, however, is very blatent about everything. Not much finness there. Certinly not enough to be Mordin.