Cuendillar and a logical conundrum

[zshadez]

Indestructible and tasty to boot!

[Artos]

So why dont they get all the remaining seals on the DO's prison and have people working night and day bashing them with the power? This would solve a lot.

[Thunderbomb]

So why dont they get all the remaining seals on the DO's prison and have people working night and day bashing them with the power? This would solve a lot.

 

The seals are made of Cuendillar, and for now no one has been able to come up with a way of destroying it, trying to destroy it with the power only makes it stronger or to decay slower how ever you want to see it, and as far as we know workers bashing at it with sledge hammers and pic axes defintly cant destroy them.

 

My thought of destroying Cuendillar is either overwhelm it somehow or find a weave that drains the power from a object, but we will find out how it is done in AMoL due to LTT wanting to break them.

[Kura]

My thought of destroying Cuendillar is either overwhelm it somehow or find a weave that drains the power from a object, but we will find out how it is done in AMoL due to LTT wanting to break them.

 

Well, the seals are already breaking, plus they are rather weak. Moraine pealed off a chunk with her belt knife, and the one that Ny had was broken when she took it out of her hiding place.

[The winds of Time]

Ok as far as i see it, Cuendillar is indestructable, but yet not in a sense. I know I might sound a little off my rocker but what if Cuendillar has a time limit to indestructablity? and by being able to absorb blows and the power almost like a sponge when its in its indestructable stage lengthens that time it is still indestructable. as thus making it stronger over TIME, the greatest challange of all creation. this would explain how cullendier becomes stronger even if its already indestructable. however this almost battery like property is lost when the indestructablity is lost when the energy isnt recharged. the seals on the DO's prison havent been beaten on for generations, as such their timer ran out making them vulnerable to breaking. at least thats what im basing my theory on.

[Vambram]

Let me ask a question that sends the topic of Cuendillar off in a different, but basic & fundamental direction, please.

 

Just how the heck, i.e., what were mystical/one power weaves or mechanics did a physical material like Cuendiallar, albeit one that is extremely unique, that allowed them to actually BE SEALS on the Bore to hold in a near omnipotent spiritual/energy being like the Dark One?

[bjclinton]

clearly, Cuendillar is not industructable....as evidenced by the "weakening" seals.

 

i think the answer to your question lies in that logical assumption.....i can only assume that the knowledge of how to destroy cuendillar died w/ the AoL and that the OP clearly wasn't the answer.

 

The True Power maybe???

The taint on saidan?

 

Who knows- maybe we'll find out why they're crumbling like stale muffins in AMOL.

[Phil_Megrim]

Let me ask a question that sends the topic of Cuendillar off in a different, but basic & fundamental direction, please.

 

Just how the heck, i.e., what were mystical/one power weaves or mechanics did a physical material like Cuendiallar, albeit one that is extremely unique, that allowed them to actually BE SEALS on the Bore to hold in a near omnipotent spiritual/energy being like the Dark One?

 

Okay I think I may have an answer.  Firstly, the Cuendillar disks are said to be "focus" points for the seal, but the seal itself wouldn't be contained within the disks but instead are "linked" akin to Aes Sedai linking, since there's no effect to the seal when the disks are scattered across Randland.  Each disk corisponds to a particular point or "knot" like when Rand was shielded in the box and trying to escape. He found those points that were either hard or soft depending on whether the shield was knoted or not.  Perhaps the seal was "knotted" around each disk and they used the Power of the Forsaken trapped since coincedentally there were thirteen disks for each Forsaken, they acted like a power source.  However, it was incomplete because we saw Ishamael conversing with Lews Therin in tEotW's prolouge, and because of that they started weakening, kinda like lashing down a boat in a hurricane but out of the thirteen knots that would've made it secured it gradually weakened since the force gets divided amongst the remaining lines thus weakening them in the process.  As the Forsaken were loosed, the power to the seal becomes depleated and thus the weakening increases.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Perhaps the seal was "knotted" around each disk and they used the Power of the Forsaken trapped since coincedentally there were thirteen disks for each Forsaken, they acted like a power source.

 

Um ... 7 seals, 13 Forsaken.

 

Which sort of invalidates the rest of the theory.  Sorry.

[Vambram]

Phil_Megrim's answer is headed in a direction that I think leads to the truth, even though he is incorrect about the number of the Cuendillar seals. I extend the invitation to the resident acknowledged experts :) Please post your thoughts and theories which would answer my question about just how it is possible, and how was it done so that these physical seals scattered around the Lands were able to actually work doing what they were intended to do.  :)

Thank you.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Please post your thoughts and theories which would answer my question about just how it is possible, and how was it done so that these physical seals scattered around the Lands were able to actually work doing what they were intended to do.

 

The answer is that the "Bore" does not have an actual physical location, so it doesn't matter where the Focus Points are.  The "patch" that was placed over the "Bore" is a weave of the One Power ... the physical "seals" can be best compared to ter'angreal that maintain the weave.  The people creating the weave (Lews Therin and co.) had to go to Shayol Ghul because the "thinness" in the Pattern there makes it easier to detect the "Bore", and they had to detect it in order to weave around/over it.  But once the weave was made, the physical focus points could go anywhere and remain exactly as effective, because Seandar, Tear, Rhuidean, and anywhere else are just as close, physically, to the "Bore" as anywhere else in the world.

 

The cuendillar discs are not the "patch".  The "patch" is a weave, and the discs are a form of ter'angreal that maintain the weave.  They are called "seals" because thats what they represent, but the actual "seal" is a weave of saidin.

 

The seals did not tap into the Power through the Forsaken.  The Forsaken were caught in the weave because they were in the place where the weave originated ... this isn't certain, but Ishamael probably was only half-caught because he was the first to realize what was happening and tried to escape just as the "patch" was being woven, resulting in only being half-caught.

[Vambram]

Thanks, man. That is an excellent, and most understandable answer to that question of mine I have had lurking in the back of my head for a long time. Comparing those Cuendillar discs to ter'angreals used to maintain the saidin weave of the one power patch over the Bore makes everything very clear to me. :) In fact, that answer is so patently obvious, I should have thought of it already. Thank you.

 

[Phil_Megrim]

.....The seals did not tap into the Power through the Forsaken.  The Forsaken were caught in the weave because they were in the place where the weave originated ... this isn't certain, but Ishamael probably was only half-caught because he was the first to realize what was happening and tried to escape just as the "patch" was being woven, resulting in only being half-caught.

 

wow man thanks for making my explanation make a butt load of sense.....and yeah now that i think on it there were indeed only 7 seals....my bad :-[

 

but here's my question that I hope doesn't drive away the focal point of this topic.....if the forsaken arn't used as a power source then what the heck were they doing at Shayol Gaul at that exact time that Lews Therin and co. went there to seal the Bore.

[Tyrell]

They were there to have a chat about the war, plan the final destruction of the forces of light, swap recipies, and so on, on the Dark One's orders I believe.

 

I would assume there was some sorta running battle between the surriving hundred companions, the forsaken and any other shadow channelers, other shadow forces and possibly whatever power the Dark One was capable of throwing about (unless bein sealed back in for 3K years was part of his plan, you never know) while LTT (and possibly 6 others?) was dooing his thing.

[lou]

do you mean that perhaps the discs were acting as a conduit for the power used to create the actual patch on the bore?

[Moiraine_Damodred]

Cuendillar is iron modified by the Power...not a ceramic polymer.

Yes, it is iron, but it becomes ceramic like.  From TGH chapter 49 "Within lay shards of what seemed to be black-and-white glazed pottery.  He had seen their like before.  'Another seal on the Dark One's prison,' "  Now, I dunno where you come from, but where I come from, pottery doesn't come in iron, or any metalic varieties...

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

i've always believed it was the cuendillar seals(/focal points) that was what made LTT and the Hundred Companions believe that the seal would be permanent.

 

remember, the important part of cuendillar isn't that its invincible, its that it any force used to destroy it is absorbed and makes it stronger.  this is where the theory of the cuendillar seals come into play.  the DO is a god, a vast being of insurmountable power.  how do you fight that?  (note: its important to keep in mind that the DO doesn't have infinite 'power,' just A LOT) why, the obvious method is to build a 'wall'(figurative term), but how strong does it need to be?  can you EVER make it strong enough*?  No one knows.  therefore, you need the seal to be made of a material adaptive to any force used against it(enter cuendillar).

 

 

*this ties into the TP and OP being EXACTLY equal powers.  this is why i don't believe the Choeden Kal barrier would have worked.  while they can summon MASSIVE amounts of the OP, the teeny-tiny(relatively) amounts that it couldn't channel would be the downfall of the plan.  it would be with this tiny advantage that the DO would be able to smash the 'wall' down and break the wheel.

 

makes sense yes?  sounds like a good plan. obviously...it didn't work out to plan.  where did it go wrong?  cuendillar is invincible to any force it has been exposed to.  what you need to be thinking of though, is how often it is exposed to a power emanating from a god?  simply because it had never been exposed to the TP, the seals had no immunity to it.  therefore, when the DO lashed out, it couldn't 'hold off' that vast amount of a unknown power.  as well, the DO could have easily aimed his energies at the seals themselves and utterly destroyed them then and there, it was simply a matter of preference that he didn't.  why not?  maybe because the choeden kal could have actually killed/hurt him? with the seal in place, the AOL AS wouldn't have dared take it down to order to initiate a counterattack.  but thats a seperate topic of discussion.

 

now, down to why the seals are breaking.  the seals would be equilevant to the 'hard points' on the shield placed on rand on LoC.  of course, those points can be broken, but thats what cuendillar is for.  as the DO tries to 'flex' and break them, the cuendillar would absorb the 'pressure' and remain stronger, thus essentially turning these hard points into soft points, without the risks of using a person to maintain the shield on the bore**.  the reason they are being destroyed is simply because of the taint.  the DO's essense is INSIDE the shield(instead of just pushing against it).  since the shield weave has been 'built-into' the seals, the DO can exert A LOT more force than it could from outside.  compare the effect of a firework blowing up on your open palm, then do that same test again with your palm closed around the firework(big difference eh? - yes, i stole this from armageddon).  as well, i imagine that taint can actually 'dissolve' the weaves that make cuendillar cuendillar. actually...thats not too accurate, think of saidin and the taint as gooey liquids(remeber, they don't mix).  now take a disc and dip it into the saidin goo.  then take it and dip it into the taint goo.  that saidin goo is what gives cuendillar its properties.  at this point, the disc should be covered by saidin which is covered by the taint. now 'massage'(the taint can do this because it is inside the shield) the goos until saidin and the taint have reversed layers.  now, that disc is no longer cuendillar because it is no longer connected to saidin.

 

**person could go insane from being so close to the DO, they could be darkfriends, they can be killed, etc...

 

 

[animus]

It states that cuendillar is indestructible to any form of the one power or the true power but does it every clearly state that it is indestructible to everything? Maybe it's weakness lies in like a sprinkling of salt and a dash of pepper.

[lou]

salt is a fairly destructive sustance. ask anyone who has had to replace a muffler in wisconsin.....

[Kura]

Or lou, someone who has to do road work in New York...

 

And out of curiosity, where did it satate that heartstone was immune to the TP? I'd think since it was an object made of the OP, and the TP being its polar oppisite, that the TP would be the way to destroy it, and this would be an obvious source of their weakening.

[Phil_Megrim]

Or lou, someone who has to do road work in New York...

 

And out of curiosity, where did it satate that heartstone was immune to the TP? I'd think since it was an object made of the OP, and the TP being its polar oppisite, that the TP would be the way to destroy it, and this would be an obvious source of their weakening.

 

I think people are missing the point about TP and OP being polar opposites...they're not.  Think of AC and DC power.  OP comes from the turning of the Wheel, the TP comes from either the Creator or the Dark One themselves, it's that power that made all of existance and the Wheel, but not what powers it and thus it is just differernt, that's also why its weakening the seals because it's a different power entirely.

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

the TP is drawn directly from the Dark One.  as far as i know, the OP is either drawn directly from the Creator, or was made beforehand.

 

i think that makes them polar opposites, unless you're suggesting the two 'gods' are similiar i nsome way.

[Phil_Megrim]

well look at the name True Power.  It's the true power the power of the gods, or the essense of them since using TP of DO results in a taint of sorts which was how saidin was tainted in the first place.  What lasting effect would using the Creator's TP be?  the creator made the world and perhaps the DO just to bring balance into the world, then gave it rules and powered the wheel using a form of the TP which becomes OP

[Mr Ares]

well look at the name True Power.

What's in a name? A rose by any other name.... 

It's the true power the power of the gods, or the essense of them since using TP of DO results in a taint of sorts which was how saidin was tainted in the first place.

It's the (so-called) True Power of one god, do you have any evidence of it belonging to any others? 

What lasting effect would using the Creator's TP be?

Who says He has one? Who says humans could use it? 

the creator made the world and perhaps the DO just to bring balance into the world, then gave it rules and powered the wheel using a form of the TP which becomes OP

He did make the world, but the evidence is against him Creating Shai'tan (BBHN). Shai'tan (BBHN) is not a part of the balance, He is an inherently unbalancing deity. He powered the world with the OP/TS, and as for what He used to Create it, we don't know if it is at all comparable to the OP or TP in form or function.

 

The TP is drawn directly from the Dark One.  As far as I know, the OP is either drawn directly from the Creator, or was made beforehand.

As far as we know, the Creator Created the TS when He made the world, O Generic One (or Two, perhaps?).

 

And out of curiosity, where did it satate that heartstone was immune to the TP? I'd think since it was an object made of the OP, and the TP being its polar oppisite, that the TP would be the way to destroy it, and this would be an obvious source of their weakening.

I think people are missing the point about TP and OP being polar opposites...they're not.

Evidence?

OP comes from the turning of the Wheel,

No, it comes from the True Source, and it turns the Wheel - a cause of the turnings, not an effect

the TP comes from either the Creator

Evidence?

or the Dark One

Right on that one

themselves, it's that power that made all of existance and the Wheel,

Evidence?

but not what powers it and thus it is just differernt, that's also why its weakening the seals because it's a different power entirely.

OP does power the Wheel, but the rest? Do you have any evidence to substantiate any of that? Anything other than your utterly unsupported (in these posts, at least) opinion?

 

It states that cuendillar is indestructible to any form of the one power or the true power but does it every clearly state that it is indestructible to everything? Maybe it's weakness lies in like a sprinkling of salt and a dash of pepper.

Do you have a ref for immunity to TP, or is that just an "as far as we know..."? And does anyone else get the impression of Shai'tan (BBHN) trying, century after century, everything to weaken the seals? "LET'S SEE, I'VE TRIED BICARBONATE OF SODA, HOW ABOUT LEMON JUICE?"

[RobertAlexWillis]

well look at the name True Power.

 

Yeah ... then look who named it.  "Father of Lies" ring any bells for you?

 

What lasting effect would using the Creator's TP be?

 

There is no "True Power" for the Creator.  The Creator made the True Source of the One Power to turn the Wheel, and, in accordance with his personality, made it available to people for use according to their free will.  It is split into saidin, and saidar, and the opposition between the two allows them to work together to turn the Wheel.  The Dark One is not a part of this balance.  The Dark One was excluded from the Pattern at the moment of Creation.  There is plenty of good and evil within humanity to create balance within the Wheel.

 

The Dark One, in accordance with his personality, keeps the "True Power" under his complete control at all times.  As such, it must be drawn directly from him, and can only be used as he sees fit.

 

We know that there are both differences and similarities in what can be done with the One Power and the True Power.  It appears that most of the basic things can be done by both, though possibly using different methods (Travelling, Balefire, etc).  Other things we know can be done by one, but not the other (Ishamael "Healing" Lews Therin's madness, apparently the One Power's Healing methods are through the True Power).  So, the One Power and the True Power are not simply manifestations of the same "Divine Power of the Gods".

 

Regarding cuendillar:

 

It was regarded as indesctructible because no one knew how it could be destroyed.  Obviously it can be.  So, rack up another one on the list of "Things Aes Sedai were sure they knew but turned out to be wrong about".  The seals were focus points of a patch which was exposed to things OUTSIDE THE PATTERN.  Who knows what is or isn't possible "there"?